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The anguish of those suffering a terminal illness and debilitating pain have led some to ask for help in ending their lives and the pain. Most states frown on helping bring peace to the suffering and the most famous Dr Kevorkian finally went to jail for his part in ending the pain/suffering of those that contacted him. Should we not take into account that we cannot do for these people and help them die if they ask?
I don't think suicide is a crime. Taking someone else's life is a crime because it might not be their wish, but taking your own, and it being your own wish, I don't consider a crime. I guess that means helping someone else, is a crime, unless they actually want it. Which they do if they want to commit suisice.
No. No I don't consider it a crime. As long as they give you something to prove you didn't murder them before!
Yes it is a crime.
If you don't have the balls to do it yourself.
To bad so sad.
Where there is a will there is away.
Not always Josh.
I remember going through cancer. I told my hubby that if I could not do for myself please do for me.
It is hard to say until you have actually been there, and I was close.
So, to me, no it would not have been a crime. The agony was intense and I do not wish it on anyone.
What if I am a vegetable?
I have stated in my will before hand I do not wish to live like that, I am kind of in tough waters then eh?
If I was a vegetable, I couldn't kill myself, despite the fact that I want to.
Therefore, assisted suicide should be allowed, but it must be evaluated on a case by case basis.
Perhaps even with a government board to review each file.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainForest
Those are great statements. At the time I was gong thruogh cancer I did not have a will. I do now. But at that time, I was 32, I thought I was too young to need one. I look back now and realize that we really do tend to be innocent in a lot of aspects during our youth.
I agree that it should be allowed on a case-by-case basis.
I also understand that this can be hard on a hopsital or nursing home, but being on both sides (a med/mal researcher and now a nursing student) it is something that most certainly should be considered.
Demonspeeding_2005
Yes it is a crime.
If you don't have the balls to do it yourself.
To bad so sad.
Where there is a will there is away
I knew someone who committed suicide,so as you say,"they did have the balls to do it themselves".
If I had a terminal illness,and was eventually to suffer agonising pain,after massive doses of morephene,I would,before my mind became confused,let it be known that I wanted to die.The downside to this,is that in the UK,only "brain-death" is considered good enough to switch-off a life-support machine,and only then after discussion with my next of kin.So even if my heart stopped beating after an over dose of drugs,I could in theory,be placed on a "machine" against my wishes.
Would I personally help someone,or other family member "die".It is difficult to answer,until the situation arises.
Is it a crime to help someone die? Only if you shoot them,knife them,or blow them up.To administer an over-dose of drugs must be awful.
I don't have the usual stigma on suicde that others do. Part of my past included two attempts (obviously failed, lol and I am not inclined now, okay?) but these were genuine attempts and so I like to think I know a little of what its like.
In the US, a "living will" is the legal document that prevents prolonged life when you don't wish it. NO machines, feeding tubes or vegetable states for us thanks! We both have ones that were drawn up right after the Terry Schiavo case went national news, having been lax on it until then. This is different from a will.
As for checking out, I have thought about if I live past the point of quality in my life, that not eating or drinking will be the option - it would only take about two weeks max from what I can find out on it. That seems simple and do-able both... unless I am missing something here? I don't think burdening someone else with my demise is wise since the emotional culpability issues, apart from the illegality of it, are just too hefty.
I saw my mom die a horrible death from progressive systemic sclerosis (crudely put, you turn to cement from the inside out basically). She was on the verge of asking me to help when she slipped into a coma in her sleep. I have to say I was IMMENSELY relieved. She died ten days later in the hospital. While I don't think its wrong to end your life, I think others doing it for you needs to be considered very very very carefully. Maybe it all changes when you are right there in the moment but why ask another if you can do it yourself? Why wait until you are that helpless?
I think suicide in general needs to be reconsidered differently, not just for hospice patients, but then I think the whole mental health topic does too!
Good thread Talaniman.
Val, you are so right in your answer.
One of the things we have not considered would be the emotional well-being of the person we ask to do it. How will they be emotionally after they have "sent us on our way"? Would they be able to live a normal life?
Now, just pulling the plug is a different story. I know of many people who have had to pull the plug. In those instances they were relieved to see that their loved one was no longer suffering (although in most instances it is the healthy person that is actually doing the suffering.)
I saw my grandfather deteriorate to the point where his dignity and quality of life were gone. I would not wish that on anyone.
How can it be a crime to relieve a person of such suffering?
I don't think it's a crime, either. The only way it would be a crime to me is if the dying person didn't have a choice in the matter... like, if they were automatically "eliminated" for not being healthy, as happened in Nazi Germany. But if they wanted to die, they should be allowed the choice to die with dignity.
Assisted suicide happens all the time. You just don't hear about it because people don't want to get in trouble, go to jail, etc. I've talked to many people who've helped family members... I think it will continue regardless of being legal or not.
Scott hit the nail on the head with his post. We have all been discussing health issues, but until he posted we never discussed dignity.
Many people are proud people and do not want anyone to see them in adult diapers and the like. Dignity should play a major factor in our decisions.
Thank you for sharing Scott. I am sure that was particularly hard time in your life.
I just had to spread some more around.
I was in my teens at the time, but it impressed me greatly and made me decide I never want to go through that. I think when my father died, it may have been best way that could happen. He suffered a stroke and never regained consciousness and died 3 days later. That was long enough for us to get used to the idea but not too long for either him or us to suffer.Quote:
Originally Posted by J_9
Janine
I know you survived cancer. Did you learn anything from it. If you would have ended it you wouldn't be here today.
Scott
Did you learn anything from watching your grandfather die. Maybe he had one last gift to give. You now know that you don't want to go like that.
I have seen my fair share of death. Suicides, Car wrecks, overdoses and stuff like that.
For the most part suicides are harder on the people left behind.
If you can't help some one die with dignity what alternatives are there?
First, your question to Janine may not be applicable. You have no idea at what level or what conditions she had to deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonspeeding_2005
Second, Yes I did learn a lesson from my grandfather's death. The lesson was that he should not have had to endure what he did. Does that make the manner of his death valuable to me? NO! I would much rather have learned that lesson without him having to go through what he did. I would rather NOT have learned the lesson at all, then have him go through what he did.
My biological mother died of breast cancer that had metasized to the liver and other organs. It was a slow, painful, horrible death, with no hope of cure or remission. I watched her die in palliative care, and all I learned was that cancer is an awful disease and that we need more research funding for a cure. And I decided that if I'm ever in that position myself that I want to die quickly.
Sorry this is long, but it is from someone who has been on the brink of assisted suicide.
Scott, I have to thank you for stepping in. Here is the story in a nutshell. I enjoy sharing my story in hopes that I save other lives.
I had, and survived stage three breast cancer, localized in the milk ducts. It had not yet metastisized, I was a lucky one. In the hospital that I had my bilateral mastectomy in it was customary for breast cancer survivors to visit patients who had mastectomies and bring angel pins (guardian angels). Sue was the lady who visited me.
She was considered cured as she had been “out” five years. This means that she had a clean bill of health five years after mastectomy and chemo.
After my final chemo treatment which was 6 months later, I was notified that Sue's cancer had returned. Breast cancer usually returns in only 5 different organs, 2 of which are the brain and bone. Well, Sue's cancer had reached both. Bear with me here as I tend to get a little teary eyed remembering this part, but it is all cathartic.
It was during my final chemo treatment, I had very little hair, (people who did not know of my cancer were quick to make fun of me, yes, adults out in the open in front of what was then my 4 year old daughter). So, back to the story. At my final chemo treatment the doctor's office gave me a boquet of flowers to celebrate. As I was walking out I saw Sue. She was gaunt, tired and bruised all over. She could not walk on her own, she had open sores, and you could tell that she had given up hope. If anyone has ever seen it, you know when someone knows it is time to go.
It was at that point that I discussed with my husband that if I ever got that far I did not want to linger a long and painful death as Sue was doing. Raechell was only 4 for heavens sake. I did not want her to watch this. I wanted my family to be able to say goodbye gracefully. This is hard folks, so bear with me, I am laying it all out for you so you know where I come from. I give speeches in October, Breast Cancer Awareness Month, but that is to people I DON'T know, and I feel I know you all. BTW Sue did die a very slow and painful death. I mourn her loss every November.
Okay, so I did not want my beautiful young child to remember a life full of pain and torture. I wanted her to remember a young healthy loving mother. Not a shell ravaged by the effects of a deadly disease.
I asked my husband to help me die with dignity if ever I were to succumb to such a horror. He agreed that if that time were ever to come that he would want me to pass gracefully, but there was no easy answer, as it would affect him and Raechell for the rest of their lives.
Well, I am now here to tell you that the time never came. I am now 11 years free of cancer and am trying to help others in the same way that my nurses helped me.
Is assisted suicide a crime? Take it from someone who as been close to the brink. No, it is not murder, it is helping others pass over with their dignity intact.
P.S. Please I do not want anyone to feel sorry for me, I want to celebrate every day that I have on this earth. And I cherish every person I meet, whether in person or online.
If I help just one person, then my job is done!
I'm with Chava in that I think it occurs "quietly" behind closed doors as it should for now. I also see pretty compelling evidence that the collective medical community, the insurance industry and the vast legal system, at least in this country, are a loooooooooong way from understanding something as intensely personal and as contrary to many religions as this is... just look at the storm Terry's situation made. Although I sympathsized with him, I am also mindful that it was very hard for a good many people to see the enormous kindness he was extending to her. There are still a great many people who view suicide of any kind as a sin. And having been in the system for attempted suicide, I can tell you much enlightenment is needed there too. So those who sound off on this topic might want to consider that words written here endure and are able to be used as evidence down the road... maybe its better to be less direct about it, for now?
Just a concerned thought, a gentle caution for choosing words carefully.
No I don't think you barbaric, but I do think you lack somewhat in compassion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonspeeding_2005
So your position is that God would put you through the pain and suffering of a terminal illness because he has some grand plan for you? Therefore, it would be an affront to him to take your own life.
I'm not sure if you see the paradox here. If you believe in a god that controls things to the extent that he has intentions for you, then that same god would control things enough to prevent you from committing suicide in the first place.
I think the people interested in a religious debate about God's intentions in general (which can include specifically about suicide) need to think long and clear about highjacking a perfectly good thread here about assisted suicide being a CRIME, not a sin. I introduced it in passing as a sin as it related to it remaining a crime, and frankly I had second thoughts about even that. :eek:
I hear that people here get tired of religious debate and I can see why when this topic interlopes as it does. Isn't it just as easy to begin a new thread as it is to pull an existing one off topic? Let me gently remind that there is already a thread about things going off topic that is still viable and plenty of room in the religion section for a new thread. So do you want to talk about it being a crime or not..
There!. huff puff puff LOL :p
If you have a living will that prohibits feeding you without your consent and you are prepared to stop eating when the time comes, why would someone else need to be that involved? Last time I checked you can't be arrested for refusing to eat... am I still missing something here?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
This is such a tough issue. Yes, suicide is painful for the loved ones left behind. Watching a loved one die a slow painful death is also painful for the loved ones watching each day. I believe committing suicide because one can no longer handle the physical pain is different than suicide because of mental suffering. There is often no help for the physical pain in terminal illnesses, and death is near. It should be your own decision whether you want to continue to suffer. I have seen hospice patients in agony because of the burden they put on their families, both financially and mentally just for a few more days or weeks of breathing... not living. We all want to leave this world behind with dignity and knowing our loved ones remember us that way.
When I say suicide is different for the physical pain versus the mental pain, I no way mean to understate the feeling of one that is in anguish mentally. The pain of feeling hopeless and there is no reason to live is just as painful as if you have cancer eating you from the inside out. There is help for that pain.
As in all walks of life, not every answer is for everyone. Some feel God would not want them to keep suffering. Others feel God will punish them for not wanting to continue to suffer. I want to think my loving God would understand the pain to be too great to endure.
Just to clarify-my main purpose of asking this question was to put light on archaic laws and behavior that lacks compassion and understanding. Pain and suffering is a part of being human but to know that you are terminally ill (going to die soon) and still have to endure the pain of your illness seems so uncaring to me. An to have some one say There's nothing you can do reeks of an attitude that isolates and strips the dignity of a once vibrant productive human being. Maybe we should have a will that spells out how we are to be treated when ill, but to my knowledge if you are not hooked to a machine and pain and agony are your constant companion should you have to wait for death or can you just ask someone to relieve you of your pain. Is it suicide knowing you are going to die or is it compassion to relieve the suffering of another?
Okay, to clarify a few things:
There is a Living Will, or as hospitals like to call it an Advanced Directive (AD). When you go into the hopsital for whatever reason they are supposed to ask if you have an AD. If so, this is placed in the very front of your chart so that the docs and nurses know that you do not want to be kept alive using artificial means.
There is also a Do Not Recussitate Order (DNR) that specifically states that no heroic measures are to be taken in the even of a catastrophic illness (heart attack, kidney failure, etc).
If you have these in the front of your chart the docs and nurses are supposed to let you die with dignity. Just let you go. In the case of Terry Schiavo, she did not have any of these. Therefore, most people think “assisted suicide.”
If these are in the front of your chart, the docs and nurses only have to make sure you are comfortable until your time comes. This would not be assisted suicide, this would be considered dying with dignity.
You make a good point. Demon's note was in a PM to me. But I feel its important that discussions be kept public. So I answered him here.Quote:
Originally Posted by valinors_sorrow
The thing is many people can't completely separate sin from crime. One must also remember that much of our laws are based on ethics handed down by religion. Thou shalt not kill, being the operative source here.
If you have a living will and go to the hospital that takes care of life support systems takes care of one area. All terminally ill patients do not go on life support and suffer a lot before dying. I do not think it should be a crime if that person wants to die without going through the "degrading, painful, suffering" part of the dying process. If a person has been diagnosed "terminally Ill" by more than one physican, and it is their choice, there should be a legal document they can sign and a doctor could handle the rest.
Just my opinion, I hate to see anyone suffer.
Our Creator is the source of life, and he has decreed that human life is precious, sacred. Gen. 9:5; Ps. 36:9 Suicide, which means the taking of one’s own life, or killing oneself, is condemned by the Bible. Such intentional act is self-murder. Ex. 20:13; 1 John 3:15 The few suicides mentioned in the Bible are of those who were unfaithful to God and who failed to consider that their lives really belonged to God.—1 Sam. 31:4; 2 Sam. 17:5-14, 23; 1 Ki. 16:18; Matt. 27:5.
One who intentionally takes his own life does so in utter disregard for the sacredness of life; he becomes blood guilty. When one commits suicide while in possession of one’s mental faculties, this shows one to be void of morality, lacking faith, having no fear of God. It is a cowardly act, where one refuses to face up to the problems and responsibilities of life. If the person claimed to be a true Christian, the act would violently break his relationship with God. Suicide may be the giving in to pressures from demons who encourage self-destruction. Matt. 17:14-18 This extremely self-centered act of murder manifests no love for one’s surviving family members, no love for one’s congregation and friends, and no love even for the surrounding community, as it brings shame and distress of mind upon all associates. Mark 12:31.
When someone commits suicide, family members and close friends suffer severe mental turmoil. Many blame themselves for the tragedy. They say such things as: ‘If only I had spent a little more time with him that day,’ ‘If only I had held my tongue that time,’ ‘If only I had done a little more to help him.’ The implication is, ‘If only I had done this or that, my loved one would still be here.’ Is it fair, though, to assume the blame for the suicide of another?
Having said this about those who commit suicide how much worse it is for another to assist in suicide. True, some countries such as the Netherlands became the first nation formally to legalize assisted suicide, reports Rotterdam’s NRC Handelsblad. The Dutch Senate approved the so-called mercy killing bill by a vote of 46 to 28. The legislation allows physicians to help end the lives of patients who are terminally ill or facing unremitting and unbearable “suffering.” Dutch lawmakers require that euthanasia patients meet the following strict guidelines: The patient’s request must be voluntary. The patient and doctor must agree that there is no reasonable alternative solution that is acceptable to the patient. At least one independent doctor must examine the patient. And the euthanasia must be performed in a medically acceptable manner.
Does that make it right and legal in God’s eyes? No it does not and neither should it be legal in the eyes of the courts.
These Laws of God are found in The Bible book of Deuteronomy.
IV. Criminal laws
A. Crimes against the state
1. Bribery, perverting justice 16:19, 20
2. Perjury 5:20
B. Crimes against morality
1. Adultery 5:18; 22:22-24
2. Unlawful marriage 22:30; 27:20, 22, 23
C. Crimes against the person
1. Murder and assault 5:17; 27:24
2. Rape and seduction 22:25-29
V. Humane laws
A. Kindness toward animals 25:4; 22:6, 7
B. Consideration for the 24:6, 10-18
Unfortunate
C. Building safety code 22:8
D. Treatment of dependent 15:12-15; 21:10-14;
Classes, including slaves 27:18, 19
And captives
Remember when Cain murdered his brother. God called it murder and when another assists someone else to commit suicide it is also murder. The taking of someone else’s life. Life does not belong to us to take.
Just my humble opinion.
Take care,
Hope12
:)
Just for my own information -A true Christian must watch a loved one waste away due to disease (And that is what we are talking about) which is terminal and painful?
I can't imagine what it would be like to go through what you went through, J_9, so what I am about to say is in no way disrespect to yours or other's situation.
I have a hard time knowing how far someone would have to be terminally ill to have the laws agree that it wasn't murder. What I mean is, with the technology we have now, it seems there may always be hope, not to the person itself but to the courts. There is a commercial that a guy had cancer and he says when no other doctor could do anything, I found the (whatever Cancer Center they are advertising) and they had a team of doctors working round the clock. My point is, where would the line be drawn where people wouldn't be ending other's lives prematurely and more frequently. I don't remember the fulll story but Dr. Kavorkian was ending a lot of lives. If a law had been passed that this was OK, how many others would have done this when maybe they didn't need to. Who determines that?
When my wife and I went to have papers drawn for the proxy and living will, they had told me that nothing would be done until 1 year from the time I would be put on life support. That is probably so that my wife wouldn't make a quick decision on saying to pull the plug when in fact I could still pull out of it (not that she would). I think the laws are placed there so that this doesn't happen. I am not saying I agree, I am just trying to give another view point.
My answer would have to be if there was some absolute way of knowing that that person's life would end and there was no way of curing it, then assisted suicide should not be considered murder. I think compassion and dignity should play a role in that. With the way people are in this world, I don't l know if that could be determined beyond a shadow of doubt. I hope this makes sense.
Rest of post best not be repeatedQuote:
Originally Posted by Hope12
Yet another example of why I don't believe in organized religion. Any institution that would require its adherents to suffer the pain and indignity of a terminal illness holds no attraction to me.
I didn't want this thread turned into relgious debate that is why I PM you scott.
I have seen uncles grand parents even parents die of cancer heart disease.
Brain tumors all sorts of things.
But still with every one of them they wanted to hang on long enough to see all there kids and grandkids one last time.
When that happened it was just a matter of hours before they died peaceful
That's fine, that's THEIR choice! They are entitled to their choice. If their choice is to live with the condition to accomplish some goal, then that's fine. However, if their choice is not hang on and endure the pain and suffering then they should be entitled to that choice as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonspeeding_2005
Those who think it's a sin and the equivalency to murder are entitled to their beliefs. And those who don't are equally entitled to theirs. And those who think it's a slippery slope, and attempt to sort of straddle the line are entitled to theirs as well. And anyone I accidentally left out are entitled to their opinion too. And I would like to thank my producer and director and my stylist and my, no wait, wrong thread! :eek: And since there are a whole lot of folks on either side of the line, I seriously doubt the legal system will be persuaded to change the laws anytime soon, at least not in my lifetime. ;)
(passes out "chill pills" to anyone interested, saying quietly, "nevermind that they look a whole lot like skittles!") :p
OK mom I will be nice.
As long as the laws it is illegal it is illegal.
Enough said
As long as the person assisting doesn't pull the trigger or push the button and that part is left up to the person committing suicide its not a crime..
I disagree with that, unless you are planning on dying within 20 years or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by valinors_sorrow
With the baby boomers aging more and more, government will focus more on health care and I believe the assisted suicide will be debated and possible legislated. If not legislated, then at least openly debated unlike what we have had in the past…
Hope 12:
When one commits suicide while in possession of one’s mental faculties, this shows one to be void of morality, lacking faith, having no fear of God. It is a cowardly act, where one refuses to face up to the problems and responsibilities of life.
Total crap.I will not write anymore as I might get thrown out of AMHD. :mad:
corrected as per Talaniman's comment:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope12
Wow Hope... that's some strong sentiment you have there! And you are certainly entitled to your beliefs.
Folks who make those sorts of judgements about suicide have, whenever I asked them, always owned up to the fact that they have not known the kind of pain possible in the extreme end of the human range. If I am wrong, please correct me? If not, for your sake (and everyone's) I hope you never do. I mean that sincerely... no sarcasm in this at all. I would gently suggest that it really is a matter of... if you've not experienced it, then you don't know and maybe that thing about walking in someone's shoes might be in order here?
And just as often they are people who have been devastated by a suicide too or witnessed someone who has been and so I chalk a great deal of it off to the hurt talking... its easy to condemn the dead, eh? But what about the ones who survived their own suicide? Have they nothing to teach us?
:) Have another cup of coffee Val, Hope 12 made the statement, Nez replied to it:cool: :) Its ruff this early:D
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