So this is very controversial in California right now, where I am from, and I was wondering what everyone thinks about the subject. People are being crazy over this prop right now.

I am totally against banning gay marriage. I think that to say that it is a violation of rights and privileges to allow it is riduculous. I know it is against some religions and a lot of people are extremely against it, but how does it hurt you? This is not forcing churches to marry gays, it is not forcing teachers to teach it in schools (most people I have talked to say that they learned about marriage from their parents and not from their school and I am in college). So, really, how does it hurt you if you a gay couple gets married and you don't ever have to meet them or deal with them at all?

I am asking because I have seen people go to disgusting lengths, on both sides of the issue, to make their point and I see no need for it. Those for the ban are saying its against their religion, well then don't pawn your religion off on those of us who don't want it! Not to mention people for the ban have said some truly sick things that I would rather not repeat. And recently at my school those against it made a swastika sign out of the Yes on Prop 8! Signs on campus, this is very sick.

So why be so against it if it has nothing to do with you? And if you are for it that's fine, just don't do horrible things like what happened on my campus.

I agree wit you
I lived in a large city when I was growing up and now I live out in the country

And it was rarely seen but out of no were it seemed like evey one I knew was gay!

It scared me a little!


But I mean what ever they want to do with there life is fine!

I just don't like how they are trying to make others things its good for every one

I don't live in California, but I also find intolerance is very repulsive. I think that banning gay marriage is Un-Constitutional.
I don't know why people think they have the right to deny happiness to a person just because they are homosexual! I think people just fear what they don't understand, and they lash out in any way possible.

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Originally Posted by spyderglass

I think people just fear what they don't understand, and they lash out in any way possible.

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Well said! I think so too. Plus people interpret the bible in whatever way they want pretty much and I think this is one of those. But whatever happened to separation of church and state? This is another issue I get really heated on, best not to even get me started. Lol

If you want to outlaw a practice that is detrimental to heterosexual marriage, outlaw divorce. My heart goes out to the gay men and women of California and the other two states that denied them this fundamental right in this election. :(

Marriage: Between a Man and Woman.
Period.

I'm sure Geoffry Dahmer would be crying descrimination, if her were still alive, that killing and eating people should be legal... I mean just because other people don't...

Pedophiles, whining that it should be legal to...

Simply using flawed reasoning and arguments will not change that.

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Originally Posted by Wondering401K

Simply using flawed reasoning and arguments will not change that.

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You mean like equating gay marriage to cannibalism or pedophilia?

Here is what I don't understand about this...

It is my understanding that the Supreme Court of California ruled in favor of same sex unions. Then how can a ballot proposition overturn a supreme court decision?

I can't believe I just read Gay marriage being Compared with murdering then eating people and having sex with Under aged kids. Wondering you can't be serious.

I don't see any connection between eating people and getting married.

I have friends who got married, were declared unmarried by a California proposition. The first proposition was declared unconstitutional so they married again. Now are they still married or unmarried? They don't know. This is an unreasonable thing to do to people who are just minding their own business and trying to have a normal life.

I don't understand why some people in heterosexual marriages think that gay marriage hurts them in any way. It's like saying gays can't eat the same foods as everyone else. If gays eat apple pie, that takes away the sanctity of apple pie? If you don't have any gay friends, you aren't even going to know about it... It's intrusive to legislate this kind of thing. What next? They can't buy houses or send their kids to public schools? I have yet to see a persuasive argument.

And the hypocrisy of the Church of latter day saints promoting Prop 8 just leaves me speechless. How can they even think of presuming to tell other Americans what a normal marriage is?

1 John 4:20-21
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

Equating one to the other was never said.

Using ".....flawed reasoning and arguments...." will not change facts.

1. Marriage: Between a Man and Woman. Period. Voters/Majority has voted. Get over it.
2. Murder is wrong and illegal.
3. Pedophilia is wrong and illegal.

The Supreme Court cannot legislate.

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Originally Posted by Wondering401K

Equating one to the other was never said.

Using ".....flawed reasoning and arguments...." will not change facts.

1. Marriage: Between a Man and Woman. Period. Voters/Majority has voted. Get over it.
2. Murder is wrong and illegal.
3. Pedophilia is wrong and illegal.

The Supreme Court cannot legislate.

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You are grouping same-sex marriage with murder and pedophila, thus equating them... and what difference does it make if a gay couple get married. No one is going to force you to marry someone of the same sex so you need to get over it. What other people do should not affect you. I'm sorry to be rude but your point of view is ridiculous grouping same-sex marriage with murder and pedophilia.

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Originally Posted by Wondering401K

Equating one to the other was never said.

Using ".....flawed reasoning and arguments...." will not change facts.

1. Marriage: Between a Man and Woman. Period. Voters/Majority has voted. Get over it.
2. Murder is wrong and illegal.
3. Pedophilia is wrong and illegal.

The Supreme Court cannot legislate.

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Your missing something or we are.

Murder hurts someone else because the murdered victim doesn't give their consent.
Pedophilia hurts someone else because children are deemed unable to give their consent.

Gay marriage is contract between to people and the government that allows two consenting adults to get certain benefits that they would otherwise not get.

How does those two people getting those benefits hurt someone else physically?

Remember that banning gay marriage doesn't prevent these two people from being together so you can't use that argument that you don't want to have to see it because banning gay marriage won't prevent that or encourage it.


Personally I think the government should get out of marriage completely. It's none of their business. Any rights that are defined through marriage should be separated out and defined and be able to be assigned to who ever you want.

This is ridiculous, I think if you are happy you should be able to get married, whether it be man with man or woman with woman. There are so many more important things to worry about in this world right now then to worry about this.

It is funny because I know so many people who are gay and lesbian who are very happy and do not fight nerly as much as a man and woman would fight.

I think that they should just let people marry who they would like.

the lowering of moral values in any nation lowers it. The fact in trying to explain to young children why bob and ted are kissing in public, violates my rights, why should I have to worry about the values of my child because of the lack of values in others.

This is the issue, the church should not even have to take a stand on gay marriage, it should be addressing its moral issue gay behavior in general. That is what the church is against. You still love the person but dislike the sin. Jesus loved everyone but he also told the sinner to go and sin no more.
The Church has lost the main battle, in allowing gay relationships to start with, So now they are fighting for the last public stand it can, marriage.

So at this point it is no issue, the Church lost, since public gay relationships are allowed, the Church is defeated by a immoral nation. Marriage is merely the legal staus of what has already happened.

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Originally Posted by michealb

Your missing something or we are.
Personally I think the government should get out of marriage completely. It's none of their business. Any rights that are defined through marriage should be separated out and defined and be able to be assigned to who ever you want.

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I agree. Marriage as a sanctified connection is a religious concept and it's not appropriate for the state to be involved. Likewise, the legal contract aspects of marriage are civil matters, not the provence of churches. There are two different things intermixed here, left over from when Churches governed.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

The fact in trying to explain to young children why bob and ted are kissing in public, violates my rights

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Just wondering.. what right are those?

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Originally Posted by asking

i agree. Marriage as a sanctified connection is a religious concept and it's not appropriate for the state to be involved. Likewise, the legal contract aspects of marriage are civil matters, not the provence of churches. There are two different things intermixed here, left over from when Churches governed.

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I agree with asking here and I've said it before. I support the civil union of same-sex partners in order to get equal benefits but you can't force the churches to marry them within their institution - they are too caught up in 2000 years of history to change their ways, I have no problem with having each individual church/denomination rule on whether they will perform marriages on same-sex couples. Hey even I'm fair on that one! :)

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

the lowering of moral values in any nation lowers it. The fact in trying to explain to young children why bob and ted are kissing in public, violates my rights, why should I have to worry about the values of my child because of the lack of values in others.

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What's to explain? Men and women sometimes kiss in public too. How do you normally explain that? You can use the same words. I'm not convinced it's necessary to explain. If a child asks a specific question, answer it. Otherwise, it's not an issue.

Anyway, legislating against marriage has no effect on whether two men kiss each other. They are legally entitled to do it whether they are married or not and even though you don't like it. I don't think people should make out in public, but that's more a matter of taste. And I certainly wouldn't limit that to gays.

Also, we all have to worry about the values of our children because of the lack of our own values in others. For example, I value tolerance for others, while you don't. Your values conflict with mine and to the extent that my children are exposed to people with your values, that's a problem for me. I also value the idea of one sexual partner at a time. But many other people don't. It would not occur to me to try to pass a law that would make it a crime to sleep with more than one person at a time even though it conflicts with my values and the values I want my children to have.

Fr_chuck,

I know a lot of americans don't understand this but you do not have right to not be offended.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

the lowering of moral values in any nation lowers it. The fact in trying to explain to young children why bob and ted are kissing in public, violates my rights, why should I have to worry about the values of my child because of the lack of values in others.

This is the issue, the church should not even have to take a stand on gay marriage, it should be addressing its moral issue gay behavior in general. That is what the church is against. You still love the person but dislike the sin. Jesus loved everyone but he also told the sinner to go and sin no more.
The Church has lost the main battle, in allowing gay relationships to start with, So now they are fighting for the last public stand it can, marriage.

So at this point it is no issue, the Church lost, since public gay relationships are allowed, the Church is defeated by a immoral nation. Marriage is merely the legal staus of what has already happened.

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Chuck - You have by far answered this question with one of the BEST answers I have ever read about this particular topic. I applaud you and your Christian values. I agree with your answer 100%. The moral issue is what matters here. Any nation that lowers their moral standards won't be around very long. Just look at Ancient Rome for a really good example.

Morals had nothing to do with fall of ancient Rome in fact when ancient Rome failed it had just gone to a major shift to Christianity.

We all agree that some things are immoral--killing other people, stealing, hurting dogs or children, for example.

But we do not all agree that being gay is immoral. I happen to think that discrimination against homosexuals is immoral. What about my "right" to not have my sense of morality transgressed? Is not my morality as good as another person's? Morality is a consensus view of what is wrong. But there is no consensus on this issue.

Our difference seems ironic to me, since Fr. Chuck and I tend to agree on so many things that are personal, suggesting that our values are in many ways similar.

It seems like there is always going to be people who want to tell other people how to live their life... WHO AM I OR WHO ARE YOU to tell two people who love each other that what they want is wrong?? I am a hetrosexual married women and I feel if I have that right everyone in this here so called FREE america should have the same right or else we are discrimanating against gay people. They are not asking to bed your wife or daughter son or husband they simply want what we all want... EQUAL RIGHTS to marry who they want... people can argue and fight over this all they want... just like they did over giving women the right to vote, letting women in the military, abolishing slavery, gays in the military and you know what?? It will happen marriage is a legal binding contract between 2 people there- in lies the major word you should keep in mind LEGAL it is not a religious act to all people... so lets keep God out of it, we all are entitled to the same LEGAL contracts no matter whar sex we happen to be... what is everyone afraid of??

Well, on the upside: if two dudes get divorced, a guy will finally get to keep the house!

Just a little levity, put away your torches and pitchforks...

I know lots of guys who ended up with the house. Always the retirement account, and often the house too, but not the kids--too much work. When you can think of jokes where women as a group aren't the butt of your humor, I'll put away my pitchfork. :)

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Originally Posted by jjwoodhull

Here is what I don't understand about this...

It is my understanding that the Supreme Court of California ruled in favor of same sex unions. Then how can a ballot proposition overturn a supreme court decision?

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Was the ballot initiative to amend the state constitution? If so, and if the state Supreme Court relied on the state constitution (as opposed to, say, U.S. Const. bill of rights & 14th amend protection), then an amendment to the state constitution would over-rule the case.

You are correct Alder the ballot initiative was to amend the state constitution.

My two cents...

Marriage is too intermingled with religion, and I don't even know how we can begin to untie this messy knot we've made of it.

There are two sides to this coin- civil marriage and religious marriage. People fail to separate the two, and automatically associate marriage with religion and assume gay people are trying to change religious morals- we are not. We are looking for the legal protections granted through civil marriage. That's all. If our church will perform a religious ceremony for us, great. If not, fine. We do not seek to change religion or alter the fabric of our society- we simply want the ability to fully participate in it.

Separate is not equal. We've learned this before... it's not a difficult concept.

Similar arguments that are being used against us today were used to condemn interracial marriage not too long ago- that it wasn't "natural", that it was "immoral", and that it would lead to the downfall of our society. The Bible was used to condemn interracial marriages, much as it is used to condemn homosexuality and homosexual unions- through obscure passages that can be interpreted (or misinterpreted) in a number of ways-

For example:

Genesis 28:1: "And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan."

Anti-miscegenationists typically interpret this verse after assuming that the Hebrews and Canaanites were of different races. Thus inter-marriage was forbidden on racial grounds.

If you want to see more examples, check out this link: Interracial marriage in the Bible

Again, it is not my desire to alter religious beliefs regarding homosexuality. It is my hope that those who hate us or condemn us will someday realize that their beliefs about us are inaccurate and misguided- but if that is their belief, they are free to hold it so long as their doing so does not impede upon my ability to live my own life.

What bothers me most is that those who are Pro Prop 8 are now saying that the people have spoken and that we should just go along with the "will of the majority"- My rights, my freedom, my equality should not be put up for a vote among people who have been seriously misinformed and lied to about the potential negative repercussions of me being able to marry the person I love.

No vote won by a slim minority of people should be able to strip me of my rights and freedoms- These are things I should not have to fight for, hope for, pray for, dream about having... I have rights and equality not on the grounds of an approving majority, but because I am an American.

I think it is a major problem that this was allowed to be put up for a vote in the first place. It should have been fought on that level, it should have been kept off the ballot- and maybe we wouldn't have gotten to this point.

In any case, you cannot give rights to people who have been fighting for them for years, and then take those rights away and expect them to hang their heads and walk away silently. We will fight until we win- and we will win. Those who are fighting against us are fighting to defend their irrational fears- we are fighting to defend our dignity. We will not back down, we will not give up, we will not be silent.

I haven't checked this site for about a week or so now but I love that this question is getting such a huge amount of posts. Thanks to all of you that were not stupid and ignorant enough to compare gay marriage to cannibalism or something ridiculous like that. That guy makes no sense! It's all consenting adults loving each other, why should you care if it's a man and a woman or two men or two women? So far no one AT ALL has been able to give me a logical answer as to why that harms them in anyway or why it should not be OK. Not one person!

MARRIAGE: Between a man and woman. Always has been.

MATHEMATICS: 2 + 2 = 4. Always has been.

SCIENCE: Gravity is real and makes apples hit the ground. Always has been.

The above is not to say that "gay marriage" is just like mathematics and science. It simply states facts.

The flawed logic of people to try to make everything seem "right" just because they want to promote their "flawed" position is typical of desperate people... or to take factual statements and think that just because they are mentioned in the same post...

African Americans: Slaves for white farmers. Always has been. It simply states the facts. If we lived in America in the 1860s

Life is what we make of it and your hate for a group of people shouldn't affect how they live or whether they get equal rights.

Our goal is to make every generation better than the one before and only by increased freedom and equality can we make that happen.

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So I'm guessing you prefer (and find it more acceptable for some reason) for men "as a group" to be the butt of the jokes...

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Kindj, You are guessing wrong. I don't advocate putting people down for what they are.

In fact, I'm not aware of any words that refer disparagingly to all men. There are such words for women, blacks, asians, gays, etc. When men are insulted, it is as individuals.

People should have the right to do what they want, as long as it isn't illegal, and marry who they want as long as they are of legal age.

Everyone is entiled to be happy and just like love is color blind why does it matter the gender of the person that person loves and want to marry? Is it really hurting everybody, no. Is it offending you? Well it shouldn't! I get more offended when I am walking down the street with my daughter and see some guy with their pants pulled down to where I see their underwears or some female butt is showing, and when I see those thing I simply look the other way.

There are so many other, bigger things, to worry about instead of this. The church I go to we welcome all and one of the pastor is a lesbian and she is good and her and her partner been together for 11 years and is married and adopted 3 kids. Everything is going great with them and they kids are fine.

To add, Wondering I think most of your views are sick. In your post on the 1st page I meant to disagree instead of agree. Your examples to this topic is very off the wall and maybe you should think before you write but after reading your other posts it seems that you have a twisted mind about other things as well.

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Originally Posted by liz28

People should have the right to do what they want, as long as it isn't illegal, and marry who they want as long as they are of legal age.

Everyone is entiled to be happy and just like love is color blind why does it matter the gender of the person that person loves and want to marry? Is it really hurting everybody, no. Is it offending you? Well it shouldn't! I get more offended when I am walking down the street with my daughter and see some guy with their pants pulled down to where I see their underwears or some female butt is showing, and when I see those thing I simply look the other way.

There are so many other, bigger things, to worry about instead of this. The church I go to we welcome all and one of the pastor is a lesbian and she is good and her and her partner been together for 11 years and is married and adopted 3 kids. Everything is going great with them and they kids are fine.

To add, Wondering I think most of your views are sick. In your post on the 1st page I meant to disagree instead of agree. Your examples to this topic is very off the wall and maybe you should think before you write but after reading your other posts it seems that you have a twisted mind about other things as well.

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I think this answer is amazing! And I especially agree with the fact that Wondering is a sick person and we could do with less sick people polluting our world.

I agree that there are many offensive things in this world that deserve the attention that the ban on gay marriage is getting, our battles are misplaced!

Marriage itself is based on a religious concept.

Homosexuals are not acceptable according to the Bible and other religious texts.

So to allow homosexuals to marry would be an oxymoron, is how I think people view it.

Yet this is a modern world. We are always changing, religions and laws and governments.

There are many many passages in the Bible about other issues that we choose to look past to fit into society now (such as stoning daughters, wearing one's hair a certain way, etc.). So why can't we look past this issue as well? If we are going to follow the Bible in saying that homosexuals are wrong, we cannot be selective in choosing those passages and overlooking others.

Gay marriage shouldn't be banned for the simple logic that we cannot live in the past and must adapt to present situations just as we have always done. Of course things aren't the same as they were in the past when homosexual couples were very uncommonly seen.

The only reason is bothers anyone now is because they grew up believing it to be wrong. No one would have any issues with their children seeing that if they didn't have it ingrained in them now to think it's wrong. It is normal now. It bothers people because it takes them out of their comfort zones from when they were children, and god forbid that happen.
Doesn't this seem like the civil rights movement? Because it is EXACTLY like it. Would any of you say now that black people should not have the same rights as white people? No you certainly would not. But if you had lived over 60 years ago I am almost sure most of you would agree with your parents and society at the time and say that they shouldn't have rights.

It's so ignorant. You have to actually THINK and look PAST everything you've been taught, to question your previous beliefs and perceptions and think for yourself.

If gay marriage offends you, suck it up and mind your own business.

There is another thread about this subject in current event.
http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current...ge-279582.html

I agree with the gay marriage ban 100%. And that's not intolerant at all. Marriage is and will always be defined as a Union between one Man and one Woman, period. That's it there's no discussion or debate on what it is. The only debate is what is trying to be done to change it. We can talk in great length about what is being done to the moral fabric of the country, the damage homosexuals do to the poor children that's subjected to their perverse lifestyle. However with all that said if you want a civil union have at it, keep it in your homes and away from the eyes of children, and you should have the right to live how you want in your own home. Just don't ask to overturn the will of the majoriety. After all the dust has settled, after all the hoopla and fanfare your lifestyle doesn't agree with mainstream America. You have been weighed and measured and been found wanting. Go back in your homes close the blinds and hide in the closet.

Yeaitsme, I take it you are a regular poster who did not have the courage to post this under your regular name, hence this one time post. Yeah, it's who?

I am not aware of any evidence that gays "damage" children, their own or other people's, certainly not to the extent that many heterosexual parents do. Name some major criminals, and their parents are heterosexual. Where's the argument for the so-called damage? Why would the children of gays be any less well adjusted than the children of bigots? If anything, I would bet it'd go the other way...