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Oklahoma - they appointed a guardian ad litem to my custody case. I've had one before on a different case w another child. This time was very different . I understand every one is different. I am seeking for full custody and he get day visits with no overnights because of living conditions he has can't accommodate for keeping them overnight. My question is why was his visit so short and why did he not ask questions? Isn't that what his job is?
I think you should have asked him.
I asked him if he could tell me what to expect at court (tomorrow morning) and he advised Me to bring my daughters. He seemed like he was in a hurry or he had his mind made up that quick. Any pointers or ideas?
When I have been appointed an attorney ad litem (same idea, basically, except an attorney is appointed), I would sometimes do a short home visit, if the order of appointment required it, but basically my role was to review the court file, perhaps interview the child(ren), decide where their best interest was, and express that to the court. Perhaps an in-depth with the parents may have revealed it, but I doubt it, and it wasn't my style. I'm of the opinion that if an interview will get useful information, the judge can do that at the hearing.
OK thank you! Like I said I have had one before with my son in a different case and she was very thorough. This gentleman just struck me as odd.
I took my ex husband back to court for modification. Our case is through sac and fox tribal court (Oklahoma) because he's a tribal member. They appointed a guardian as Litem who "investigate" us. We went back to court this past Thursday and my ex was told if he can get a place of his own then our 2 daughters can live with him. I am shocked! The guardian as litem claimed to of pulled up my now husbands past record but upon further talk in the courtroom admitted he just scanned it. And a year and half ago me and him for into a physical confrontation. It was thrown out before but suddenly he is bringing it back up. It was before me n my husband were married and no kids seen this. Me and my husband attend marriage counseling and other things to make sure we have a sound marriage. Sense then me and him have had stability and everything nessacary for custody to stay with us. Why are they suddenly wanting to give my ex custody? What happened to ruling in favor of the mother?
Ask them. I cannot answer you because I know almost nothing about the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by momma5
Another point of view is that they have their own laws and / a form of/ government.
Is "guardian as Litem" Cherokee for guardian ad litem?Quote:
Originally Posted by momma5
In Oklahoma - case is originally in sac and fox (tribal court) ex husband is tribal and I am not. I have reason to believe that are making biased decisions involving my children because of that. I need information on what I can do to get my case through state instead of tribal. Please help
Not that I am reading - I don't know about Oklahoma but it's a big argument in NY and, no, the case is heard in tribal court IF the father is native American.Quote:
Originally Posted by momma5
Also in NY when a non-Native mother gets an Order in Court the Nation and father refuse to respect it.
I got pulled into one of these situations and it was not pleasant. Are the children recognized by the Tribe?
I agree, once tribal court takes over, you can try to move it. But the tribal court will ignore any other court.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
I just took a look at the history and there are several threads involving children and stepchildren.
Could these be combined?
There was violence involved in the current marriage of the OP. This, and other info, is not posted here.
Do the children live on a reservation or other tribal land?
"Under ICWA, an Indian tribe has exclusive jurisdiction over an Indian child who resides or is domiciled within the tribe's land. This includes both reservation land, other tribal lands that are held in trust by the Federal government for the benefit of a tribe or individual, or held by a tribe or individual subject to a restriction by the United States against alienation."Indian Child Welfare Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK lawyer
And it goes on to say: "Concurrent jurisdiction is shared jurisdiction between the tribal courts and the state courts. In all cases that the tribal court does not have exclusive jurisdiction, they have concurrent jurisdiction. These cases would be custody proceedings involving Indian children that don't reside or are not domiciled on the tribal lands (such as someone born off the reservation and whose parents don't live on the reservation). In these concurrent decisions, the ICWA expresses a preference for tribal jurisdiction in Indian child custody proceedings."
In my area - and, again, I'm not in Oklahoma, if the child is registered with the Tribe (and that's a simple matter) Tribal Court has jurisdiction. The issue gets argued frequently. The Seneca Tribe's Attorney appears and argues and the matter ends up in Tribal Court. I've worked them, I've seen the cases, I've read about them.
There was a single incident between Me and my husband. We weren't married at the time and no children seen this. Me and my husband do have sole custody of my stepchildren and I had primary custody of my bio children. When I went to remodify ( miss kaytee if you took the time to read previous threads then u must of read the first one id posted which states the reasoning to want to modify) I have tried to speak w the appointed guardian ad litem who is also of the same tribe and he hangs up on me every time I call. He made a reccomendation without actually looking into anyone's past except looking at that one incident . Which was actually completely dismissed and excused by another court system. No the girls are not recognized by the tribe. Just him .
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma5
It's actually Mrs. Your comment that "if I had taken the time to read your thread" is totally out of line. I did read your thread. In fact, I read all of your threads. The fact that you don't want to hear what I have to say does not give you the right to be sarcastic with me.
Actually if you hadn't called the Police for reason or no reason on your boyfriend your life - and the lives of your children - would be easier. I don't know what happened, and I really don't care.
So you called the Police on "him" for domestic violence and then you married him. That changes neither the domestic violence NOR the call to the Police.
The children don't have to witness violence or abuse. I appreciate things got heated, the Police were called. I don't know what "excused" means. Dismissed I understand. Apparently there is still a record of the incident because it was/is being used against you. I'm not arguing with you - I'm just saying that it was an incident involving domestic violence and children are involved here. Lots of people, probably the majority, have never had to call the Police on a boyfriend, girlfriend or spouse. No one has to look into anyone's past - this one incident can seal your fate.
You said: "The guardian as litem claimed to of pulled up my now husbands past record but upon further talk in the courtroom admitted he just scanned it. And a year and half ago me and him for into a physical confrontation. It was thrown out before but suddenly he is bringing it back up. It was before me n my husband were married and no kids seen this. Me and my husband attend marriage counseling and other things to make sure we have a sound marriage. Sense then me and him have had stability and everything nessacary for custody to stay with us. Why are they suddenly wanting to give my ex custody?? What happened to ruling in favor of the mother?"
For starters, the Guardian ad Litem (which I assume you meant) "scanned" your current husband's record? What do you think he was required to do? You admit you attend marriage counselling and do "other things" to guarantee your marriage will survive.
What happened to ruling in favor of the mother - which you ask. Hopefully the Courts ALWAYS rule in favor or the children, and that can (and does) mean custody with EITHER parent. It would be totally unfair for the mother (by virtue of nothing other than being female) to be the favored party.
However - if the children don't live on Sovereign Land, aren't recognized by the Tribe, why are you in Tribal Court? Tribal Court doesn't have jurisdiction.
Why/how is Tribal Court claiming jurisdiction UNLESS the children have somehow been named wards of the Tribe?
Do you know? Is there paperwork?
I still don't see where, in this thread or in other posts by OP, that she says whether they live on tribal land.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
The point of my earlier reference to the ICWA is that unless they are off-reservation (or other tribal land, etc.), the tribal court has exclusive jurisdiction. So no, she would not be able to remove the case to a state court.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK lawyer
I agree - and I am reading that even if they are off reservation (Sovereign land being the term "here") if they are registered members of a tribe they are under the jurisdiction of Tribal Court and "the State" will not accept the case.
No, I don't know where the children are.
Pardon me MRS. kaytee for the wrong heading. My apologies. I didn't call the police on that incident. My ex husband did. The girls are not recognized by tribal no. And I posted on this because I feel there's people on here who sincerely do care enough to give free legal advice. And I do appreciate that. {Mod edit as unnecessary} Anyway back to the post question.. . I'm not sure how it got to where they were trying to hand him custody. His criminal record is lenghtier then my husband's. I'm trying to save my family and I feel civil court would be fairer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma5
Please leave God out of this OR post on God's site.
You and I don't like each other. We've established that. That doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. Short opinions? Did you actually read my last post? (You still didn't get my name right, by the way.)
So let's see - first husband has lengthy criminal record. Second husband has criminal record, not as lengthy. That's for starters. Maybe the Court is picking the lesser of the two evils.
Good that you feel civil court would be more fair. The question is can you get to civil court. I'm not reading that you can, you don't seem to have a clue WHY you're in Tribal Court so there's nothing to contest and you don't understand why mothers don't have the upper hand.
I don't think you're a guaranteed winner in civil Court.
HOW did Tribal Court get this issue in the first place?
Instead of your rant why don't you tell AMHD:
What does "excused by the Court" mean?
However - again - if the children don't live on Sovereign Land, aren't recognized by the Tribe, why are you in Tribal Court? Tribal Court doesn't have jurisdiction.
Why/how is Tribal Court claiming jurisdiction UNLESS the children have somehow been named wards of the Tribe?
Do you know? Is there paperwork?
You cannot attempt to transfer this from Tribal Court on the grounds that you think the mother would have a more fair "shot" at custody in another Court. You need a legal reason. No one can figure out what that might be unless you share some of the information. For example: If I lived in Oklahoma, if I were in a child custody matter, I'm not Native American, my children are not recognized as Native American my case would NOT be heard in Tribal Court. Why is yours? I don't know how many ways I can say that.
If you don't want to share or feel you've burned out AMHD with your various custody disputes over 6 separate threads, retain an Attorney in your area.
My ex husband filed our divorce in tribal because he thought it'd be "cheaper" and he'd have the upper hand. I just want the case to be heard in nuetral territory. That's all. They aren't recognized but the ex is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma5
Then re-read what's been posted - your case is in a Court which has NO jurisdiction over you and your children UNLESS you consented/agreed to Tribal Court.
That's how you get it transferred - you never consented to Tribal Court. Tribal Court ONLY has jurisdiction if you agreed or consented.
You can't say, "Well, I don't like the way this is going. I'll move to another Court." You need a legal reason.
I am guessing this may be that reason - again, unless you consented/agreed/didn't make an objection until the tide turned against you.
I never consented to it. He filed behind my back.
Move to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by momma5
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK lawyer
I keep telling OP the Court does not appear to have jurisdiction - next we'll be preparing the motion papers!
My question is whether the lack of jurisdiction and desire to move the case came before the custody order was handed down or after.
I don't know - and I bow to AK's experience and credentials - that you can "simply" decide the decision was "against you," and, therefore, you want a more favorable forum. It is going to look exactly like what it is - Court shopping instead of Attorney shopping.
There was a Guardian ad Litem appointed. The GAD ruled against the OP - now there's a jurisdiction problem.
The divorce was heard by Tribal Court and granted by Tribal Court - thus the "ex" and "current" husbands and whose criminal record is better or worse. I don't see an objection to jurisdiction at any time... until OP lost the custody battle. GAL gave the reasons for the recommendation. GAL now won't talk to OP - not uncommon in my State. GAL does his/her job, makes a recommendation, moves on. Doesn't discuss his/her report with the parties for any reason, endlessly. GAL has no need/desire to defend that report.
I'll be curious to see how a Motion plays out. I'm assuming Oklahoma Judges are far from stupid.
Nothing had been completely decided. And for the record I've been trying to move my case from the beginning. My ex even stated that he was going through tribal because he knew he could win. As far as the GAL I asked him specifically if he knew all the details and he stated ( which I have the recording of the conversation we had) he hadn't had time to thoroughly investigate. As far as my daughters best interests , once again, I recorded him stating that the children will "get over it" . Being a full time mom for 8 years has shown me kids don't magically get over anything. I have provided many many items of documentation that would be beneficial to my case but again the GAL doesn't have the time to go through it yet the judge asked him to get it. The ex husband up until 3 days ago didn't have a home and frequently house hopped when the girls were with him. The GAL admitted twice now all he did was scan my husband's record before making a recommendation. In the past I had another GAL on a different case who explained her job and what she was entitled to do. This GAL didn't do but half that. He didn't interview all the parties involved. Just my ex. And when I read the report on what he had told the GAL I was in shock. He made many false accusations against me and my husband. This all coming after my mother told me the ex is just now realizing that we Will never be together again. So it sounds to me like he found a weak spot and is using his "power" in tribal court so to speak to get back at me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma5
Okay, we're getting somewhere. So you've ALWAYS objected to Tribal Court. That's good. I was not aware if/when/how you can record someone (the GAL) in Oklahoma but it's good that you can.
Can you ask for another GAL? I still don't know what you mean by "scanning" your present husband's record. Any information on anyone in the household is important when children are invovled.
I would file a Motion to move the case AND I would ask that the GAL be removed and replaced with someone else. Have your children been interviewed by a social worker, therapist, someone else who can make recommendations about what is in their best interest?
Me and my husband see a marriage counselor who wrote a letter to the judge and whoever it concerned that my husband is niether violent nor a threat to my children. And also said he's a positive role model in my children's lives . As far as scanning a record if you get on odcr.com and put in a name an overview of their record comes up. You have to click into each individual case to get information. The GAL only seen the overview. I've tried countless times to get an attorney but you have to obtain permission to represent in a tribal case. And not many attorneys in Oklahoma have that. In fact a vast majority of the dockets in sac n fox are pro se. I've seen a tribal mother who hadn't seen get children in 3 years and was actually unable to pass a drug screen that day handed overnight visitation. Meanwhile non-tribal mother who has had full involvement with her children and had a tribal ex who had been incarcerated and they allowed him liberal visitation just like that. It starts looking more then biased after seeing case after case with closely the same features and the
Outcomes are always the same. And the demeaner of the GAL (who's the same person throughout these cases) is always the same : rude and shallow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma5
Indian Rights - as I said - are a very big issue in NY. I've seen gross miscarriages of justice in the name of "Tribal Law." The non-American Indian is at a great disadvantage.
I understand why - Native Americans were taken from their parents for no reason and sent to "white" schools. Parent lost permanent custody for no reason, without any rights. It was an unfair nightmare.
All that aside - are you thinking of representing yourself?
We've been pro se . As I stated in my previous statement almost all the cases in sac and fox are pro se.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma5
I didn't know "almost all the cases" includes you.
Then what are you asking? If you can file a Motion to move the case?
Yes, you can.
Here's the wording in California - you'll have to pull your State's laws, make your own argument, but it's a start. I do not see anything similar for your State.
You would have to go to a law library or, if your Town's library is sizable, look there.
The guardian ad litem assigned to my case is being impossible at this point. When me and my husband visited with him (which we called and had to set up ) he didn't ask one thing about my daughters (whom the reason he was appointed and other back ground info can be found in previous posts.) And was hostile when we spoke. I have recorded our conversations and he has told me my daughters will "get over it" as far as not wanting to stay with their father. He has interviewed other people on our witness list and when he can't get anything negative out of them regarding me or my husband he gets rude and spiteful with them as well. ( He got for lack of a better word flat out ty with our marriage counselor of all people because she told him that we were amazing parents) I don't know what to do as far as this goes. Courts in a month and I'm so scared of losing custody of my girls that I can't eat or sleep and it is affecting everything now. Its as if the more this man digs the less evidence he has to support his reasoning behind simply handing over custody of my girls like they are merely a possession. Heck the 3ed girlfriend of the ex husband is moving in now with him which is strictly frowned upon in Oklahoma courts and I can't even bring it up to the guardian ad litem because it falls on deaf ears. Please help :(:(
Will the GAL be issuing a report to the judge or simply make recommendations to the courts? If a report is provided then you have the right to crossexamine and question it if its not accurate. At this point you are stuck in a waiting game. If you do crossexamine the GAL do not attack them in the courtroom. Be calm and present facts that show the contrary to what is being said. Don't use hearsay as evidence. It won't be allowed.
He issued a recommendation n July. His report stated that according to the plaintiff (the ex husband ) my husband was violent and abusive. There's been absolutely nothing to back that up. The more stuff we pull up and the more the GAL digs the more his recommendation looks wrong. I plan to ask him about all of it in court n Sept when we go back. I'm just at a loss right now. The GAL has absolutely no interest in my girls well being. :(
The GAL is not on your side and you should have your own attorney ( did not see mention of it)
It is the GAL duties to find out what is in best interest of the child. They are not there to be your friend and will often assume the charges are correct till thy are proven wrong.
Perhaps having a girl friend moving in is frowned on, in your local courts but nationally, has little to do with custody. Is there anything you have to show he is not a fit father ?
How close to each other do you live ( since if you live close enough joint split custody may be a option they look at)
The ex husband has subjected the girls to multiple other women and up until a week ago hadn't had his own place in a year or more ( not sure on an exact date due to him not being honest ) we are in tribal ( sac and fox -Oklahoma ) . I understand the GAL isn't my "friend" and trust me that I wouldn't associate with someone that crass or selfish willingly. My 5year old daughter doesn't even want to live with him which is really saddening. We live 30 min away. The judge granted him liberal visitation last year but never practiced it. He told the judge I never let him have them which is definitely not true. I've talked to multiple attorneys and while they won't accept the case because its tribal they have advised me that because I'm not tribal its going to be harder for me to win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma5
In a legal matter the word "friend" refers to someone who is on your side, not someone with whom you socialize.
In my area, at least, it is not the "job" of the GAL to ask you questions about the children. It is the "job" of the GAL to gather information about you and your husband in order to determine what is and what is not in the best interest of your children.
The GAL represents the children and should remain partial. If you get shut down when you try to bring up information against your "ex" hopefully the same thing happens when your "ex" tries to bring up information which is harmful to you.
There is a lot of background in the other threads, I believe six of them, background which is necessary in order to understand the complete situation.
That's the problem . In the recommendation it has all this stuff that my ex had said to the GAL about me and my husband . None of which is true. When we tried to voice our concerns towards the ex and the environment he is having the girls in he said he didn't Want to hear it. If your going to ask one side about their concerns shouldn't it be fair across the board?
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma5
Maybe he's already made up his mind, decided what he will recommend, and simply doesn't want to put in any more time.
I've done some investigative work for GALs and I've never seen anything other than fact, proven fact, in a report.
It is unusual to put "he said, she said" in paperwork.
Well in this case he had been proven wrong. He called out marriage counselor and asked her what we have discussed (we gave her written consent to discuss everything with him) and she called me saying he was a jerk towards her. He kept "digging " and after approximately 30 min of what she guesses was him not getting the information to back up that my husband is "violent" or "abusive" he got even ruder with her and hung up.
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