Ask Me Help Desk - Bad judge's decision

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Bad judge's decision

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I went to court for spousal support. My "great" lawyer assured me that I would not need an accounting of my income and expenses. When the judge asked for an accounting, I had nothing to show. My husband gave her a list of "expenses" that made her say... no wonder you can't give her any more support, in fact I'm cutting back the amount you have been giving voluntarialy.
A week after court date I went to the court house and found his list of "expenses" was a list of lies. I filed for a motion to rehear the case.
My husband received a motion for the rehearing, but never showed up. I told the judge her decision was based on his perjury. I told her she didn't have a fair chance to see what my income and my expenses were. She said she had already made a decision and that was the end of it.
Since when does perjury not matter to a judge? She mentioned I had a "good lawyer", but how good was he if he didn't tell me to prepare and expense listing?
How can I get a fair chance now? She based her decision on his lies, his perjury and it's OK?? I didn't even have a chance to show how in debt I am.

Hello k:

You don't have a bad judge. You have a bad lawyer. I'd make HIM refile or I wouldn't pay him.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayceegirl

... I told the judge her decision was based on his perjury. I told her she didn't have a fair chance to see what my income and my expenses were. She said she had already made a decision and that was the end of it....

Your lawyer didn't think you needed a written "accounting"? Did you offer oral testimony of what your income and expenses are?

Your tardy attempt to show that your ex's claimed expenses were incorrect doesn't appear to have persuaded the judge. Just because you disagree with your ex's testimony, doesn't make it perjury.

She probably has no obligation to reconsider under these circumstances, but have you considered appealing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK lawyer

Your lawyer didn't think you needed a written "accounting"? Did you offer oral testimony of what your income and expenses are?

Your tardy attempt to show that your ex's claimed expenses were incorrect doesn't appear to have persuaded the judge. Just because you disagree with your ex's testimony, doesn't make it perjury.

She probably has no obligation to reconsider under these circumstances, but have you considered appealing?

Thank you for your response. I did not have a chance to offer testimony, as soon as she asked me, and my lawyer said "no", she turned to my husband and asked him.

I know the facts about my husbands expenses, he's saying he is paying $900.00 a month for diesel fuel for his RV, and $600.00 - $900.00 a month for rental space. He is not traveling, he is staying in a friends yard for free. If he claimed those were his expenses, and they aren't, isn't that perjury? He's told me over and over that his friend won't accept a dime from him.

I did put in a motion for a new trial and she denied it saying she had already made her decision. Her decision was made up on lies from my husband. Her decision was made with no idea of what my income and my expenses are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello k:

You don't have a bad judge. You have a bad lawyer. I'd make HIM refile or I wouldn't pay him.

excon

I HAD a bad lawyer... even though he is a 'Fellow of Matrimonial law'. He ASSURED me that I did not need an accounting of my expenses even after I asked him if I needed it. He told me these type of decisions were based purely on income.

I did already put in a motion for a new trial. Judge denied it saying she already made a decision. Even after I informed her that my husband had committed perjury! :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayceegirl

... I did not have a chance to offer testimony, as soon as she asked me, and my lawyer said "no", she turned to my husband and asked him.

I know the facts about my husbands expenses ...

Unless there is a rule or it is the normal practice requiring a written accounting, it appears that the judge was out-of-line. Perhaps your attorney should have been more forceful, but it appears that there may be grounds for appeal.

Are you saying your attorney wasn't given an opportuity to rebut your ex's testimony? Again, did he offer to do so at the hearing? If not, you should be sure to make a clear offer of proof to preserve the issue for appeal.

You do understand that an appeal isn't the same as a motion for a new trial?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK lawyer

Unless there is a rule or it is the normal practice requiring a written accounting, it appears that the judge was out-of-line. Perhaps your attorney should have been more forceful, but it appears that there may be grounds for appeal.

Are you saying your attorney wasn't given an opportuity to rebut your ex's testimony? Again, did he offer to do so at the hearing? If not, you should be sure to make a clear offer of proof to preserve the issue for appeal.

You do understand that an appeal isn't the same as a motion for a new trial?

I do not know if it is a rule or normal practice. From information I had read online spousal support was only supposed to be based on income. I even saw the formula the Fairfax VA area used and there was no space for expenses. I agree, my attorney should have been more forceful, especially when my husband said he could file for bankruptcy and I whispered to my lawyer that my husband just received a $20,000.00 settlement from another case. My lawyer said nothing.

My lawyer didn't do anything about my ex's testimony. As my husband was representing himself, the judge and bailiff both had to tell him to settle down. As soon as the judge asked for his "expenses" she said she didn't see how he could give me anything and she actually cut back the amount he had been giving me. My lawyer asked if the amount could at least be kept the same and the judge said 'no'. That was about all my lawyer did.

After the first trial I had 10 days to appeal, which I did.. . but when I heard about my husbands anger I withdrew the appeal. He is 100% mentally disabled due to PTSD.
I went to the courthouse to see what my husband had claimed as his expenses I finally decided I didn't care anymore and hired another lawyer to file for a new hearing . The new hearing was held within 30 or 45 days of the first hearing. That was when the judge said no, that she had already made a decision. I informed her it was based on his lies, and she didn't care.

Have I blown my chances for a fair judgement? Or do I have any other options?. and I do appreciate your time in helping me, thank you :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayceegirl

My lawyer didn't do anything about my ex's testimony.

Have I blown my chances for a fair judgement? Or do I have any other options? ...and I do appreciate your time in helping me, thank you :)

Hello again, k:

You need to make some distinctions here... ONE is what happened. The OTHER is the ability to PRESENT what happened to a judge... What HAPPENED is your husband submitted a faulty document to the court, and WHEN you/your lawyer had a chance to challenge it, you/your lawyer DIDN'T, and the judge made a ruling based on that document...

You have to focus on CHANGING the ruling - NOT on what happened... Because you/your lawyer DIDN'T challenge it, the judge thinks it's TRUE. Why wouldn't she? WITHOUT being able to cross examine your husband, the judge ISN'T going to rule simply on what you say AFTER the hearing is concluded...

No, you didn't blow your chance at justice.. You just made it a lot more difficult and a lot more expensive. I STILL didn't hear whether you FIRED your lawyer or not, or DEMANDED he represent you for FREE during the appeal HIS malpractice caused.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayceegirl

...
After the first trial I had 10 days to appeal, which I did. ...but when I heard about my husbands anger I withdrew the appeal. ...

Have I blown my chances for a fair judgement? ...

It does appear so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayceegirl

... Or do I have any other options? ...

Few.

Perhaps, after a few months, you might move to upwardly adjust the amount of child support. In most places you would have to prove changed circumstances. If so, you could present persuasive evidence that his expenses are not what they were said to be and argue that this is a "change".

But I wouldn't count on it. Sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, k:

You need to make some distinctions here... ONE is what happened. The OTHER is the ability to PRESENT what happened to a judge... What HAPPENED is your husband submitted a faulty document to the court, and WHEN you/your lawyer had a chance to challenge it, you/your lawyer DIDN'T, and the judge made a ruling based on that document...

You have to focus on CHANGING the ruling - NOT on what happened... Because you/your lawyer DIDN'T challenge it, the judge thinks it's TRUE. Why wouldn't she? WITHOUT being able to cross examine your husband, the judge ISN'T going to rule simply on what you say AFTER the hearing is concluded...

No, you didn't blow your chance at justice.. You just made it a lot more difficult and a lot more expensive. I STILL didn't hear whether you FIRED your lawyer or not, or DEMANDED he represent you for FREE during the appeal HIS malpractice caused.

excon

I agree. I thought and 'assumed' my lawyer would do what was smart. He didn't challenge the expense document, and I didn't know that I could... so it wasn't.

The first lawyer wrote me a letter after court, saying he felt the fact that since I had been on 2 trips and that 8 years ago I inherited money, those were the main reasons I lost. The judge didn't feel I needed much support. He also said he would be happy to represent me if a divorce took place. I paid him and wrote him a letter how disappointed I was with his lack of action in court as well as him not having me prepare an expense accounting.

Not meaning to be argumentative, but I feel if I were a judge and I had someone in front of me that was obviously badly advised.. and then found out she took the effort to go to a courthouse to examine documents she never had the opportunity to see... and then informed me that the person committed perjury in my court, I would give her an opportunity to present evidence and make a fair decision based on true information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK lawyer

It does appear so.

Few.

Perhaps, after a few months, you might move to upwardly adjust the amount of child support. In most places you would have to prove changed circumstances. If so, you could present persuasive evidence that his expenses are not what they were said to be and argue that this is a "change".

But I wouldn't count on it. Sorry.

Thank you. This is not for child support. I am 60, been married for 41 years. This is for spousal support.

I took all my documents to show his expenses are way off at the motion for a new trial, but the judge didn't care to see them. I had records of our traveling in the RV for 18 months. I had records of the cost of diesel, campsites, propane used when he actually did travel. I took documents of the cost of campsites, I took pictures of him camped in his friends yard. The judge didn't give me a chance to show cause for a new trial. I have the evidence, but she won't even look at it.

So I guess I relied on the legal system and it failed someone that relies on professionals to do a correct presentation in court. I relied on a judge to be fair when someone comes and asks for a new trial and has evidence to show cause... but she doesn't care.

... and now I'm just shi* out of luck because I tried to do things fairly and honestly :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayceegirl

Not meaning to be argumentative, but I feel if I were a judge and I had someone in front of me that was obviously badly advised..and then found out she took the effort to go to a courthouse to examine documents she never had the opportunity to see....and then informed me that the person commited perjury in my court, I would give her an opportunity to present evidence and make a fair decision based on true information.

Hello again, k:

You're not being argumentative. And, I don't disagree with you. The FAIR thing would have been what you have determined it to be...

But, the law isn't about FAIR. It's about the rules... The assumption being, that if each side adheres to the rules, justice will happen. But, when one side BLOWS a call, it's over. Really, it's OVER. Even if you had appealed, you'd have to show where the judge BLEW it... Your judge DIDN'T blow it. YOU/your lawyer did, and THAT'S not an appealable error. Look. If you made a mistake in Monopoly, and I beat you, it wouldn't be FAIR. Sure, you SHOULD be eligible for a redo.. But, the RULES say otherwise.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, k:

You're not being argumentative. And, I don't disagree with you. The FAIR thing would have been what you have determined it to be...

But, the law isn't about FAIR. It's about the rules... The assumption being, that if each side adheres to the rules, justice will happen. But, when one side BLOWS a call, it's over. Really, it's OVER. Even if you had appealed, you'd have to show where the judge BLEW it... Your judge DIDN'T blow it. YOU/your lawyer did, and THAT'S not an appealable error. Look. If you made a mistake in Monopoly, and I beat you, it wouldn't be FAIR. Sure, you SHOULD be eligible for a redo.. But, the RULES say otherwise.

excon

Thank you for your time and help.

I am not referring to the appeal, I am referring to a move for a new trial... this to me is a good explanation why a new trial would be fair.

My paperwork says: Move for a new trial in the civil case numbered XXXXXx

I am making this motion based on the following reasons:
"The Respondent presented his expenses to the Court on April 27, 2011, which Petitioner did not see until obtaining the information from the Court after the hearing took place. Petitioner states the Respondent inflated his expenses to reduce his spousal support obligation".

Monopoly is a game. Everyone is supposed to know the directions. In a legal matter it is advisable to have a lawyer to tell you the rules. Supposedly...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayceegirl

...and now I'm just shi* out of luck because I tried to do things fairly and honestly :(

Hello again, k:

Not really. I wouldn't let it lie either. Your case is over.. But, you might have a brand new one against your previous psudo-lawyer. I'd start with a DEMAND letter for a return of your legal fees based on obvious malpractice. Give him 72 hours to comply OR you'll file a lawsuit and you'll complain to the Bar Association. I'd say NO more than that. I'd send my DEMAND by certified mail, return receipt requested.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, k:

Not really. I wouldn't let it lie either. Your case is over.. But, you might have a brand new one against your previous psudo-lawyer. I'd start with a DEMAND letter for a return of your legal fees based on obvious malpractice. Give him 72 hours to comply OR you'll file a lawsuit and you'll complain to the Bar Association. I'd say NO more than that. I'd send my DEMAND by certified mail, return receipt requested.

excon

It just astounds me that when someone finds another person has lied under oath... no one cares. There is no recourse to prove it and seek a judgement that would be fair.

Why pursue a case against the first lawyer? I've lost faith in our "justice" system. It has frustrated me, depressed me, I'm tired of fighting for fairness and hitting roadblocks.

Thank you for all your help, I do appreciate your time.

Spousal support

I have read that when filing for spousal support, you should file in the county where the person lives that you are seeking support from. Is that true?

I took my husband to court for spousal support, things did not turn out well... I'm wondering if I have the option for a new trial in the county where he lives?

You get one bite of the apple - you got it and, unfortunately, you lost.

Are there grounds for appeal?

It is difficult to answer without knowing what State you are in.

EDIT: I just saw your other thread - https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/family...on-582199.html

Please keep the same subject to the same thread. I am asking the moderators to combine the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

You get one bite of the apple - you got it and, unfortunately, you lost.

Are there grounds for appeal?

It is difficult to answer without knowing what State you are in.

EDIT: I just saw your other thread - https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/family...on-582199.html

Please keep the same subject to the same thread. I am asking the moderators to combine the two.

I'm sorry, I couldn't find where I posted my first question. I am still learning about this site. It is too late for an appeal. I live in VA my husband is living in NC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayceegirl

It just astounds me that when someone finds another person has lied under oath...no one cares. There is no recourse to prove it and seek a judgement that would be fair.

Why pursue a case against the first lawyer? I've lost faith in our "justice" system. It has frustrated me, depressed me, I'm tired of fighting for fairness and hitting roadblocks.

Thank you for all your help, I do appreciate your time.

I understand your frustration but if you want sympathy, this is not the place for it. That's for a discussion board. Spousal support is based on "reasonable" income and expenses of both parties. Quite frankly I don't know how you could have been prepared to answer your ex's claim of income/expenses when you didn't know in advance WHAT he was going to claim as income/expenses.

What did you have prepared to argue your need for X amount of dollars - income, expenses? Or did you have nothing, and your Attorney (therefore) had nothing? I would be speaking to my Attorney at this point and if I had to get Attorney #3 involved (and I think you would be contacting #3) I would do that. Either your Attorney was ill prepared OR I am misunderstanding what happened.

I am in NY. I appreciate it's a different State but I can't go into Court and say, "I need more money" or "You owe me more money" without documentation. Spousal support, of course, is not a percentage (as is child support) so it's more question and answer, a matter of proof.

What would you do if you were a Judge? Well, you'd be bound by the law - and I would think the Judge was and if "she" (I believe it was a "she") I'd be purchasing a transcript and going back to Court to get that decision overturned.

My own experience? Family member, unmarried, filed for child support on the day the DNA proved paternity. NY law REQUIRES that the non-custodial parent begin to pay on the date of filing, not the date of the hearing. Judge ruled (in this case) that that would be "unfair," and awarded child support six months after the Petition was filed. Mother (custodial parent) "lost" six months of child support.

Purchased the transcript. Appealed. Lost - same Judge.

Why? I don't know.

It's not always fair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I understand your frustration but if you want sympathy, this is not the place for it. That's for a discussion board. Spousal support is based on "reasonable" income and expenses of both parties. Quite frankly I don't know how you could have been prepared to answer your ex's claim of income/expenses when you didn't know in advance WHAT he was going to claim as income/expenses.

What did you have prepared to argue your need for X amount of dollars - income, expenses? Or did you have nothing, and your Attorney (therefore) had nothing? I would be speaking to my Attorney at this point and if I had to get Attorney #3 involved (and I think you would be contacting #3) I would do that. Either your Attorney was ill prepared OR I am misunderstanding what happened.

I am in NY. I appreciate it's a different State but I can't go into Court and say, "I need more money" or "You owe me more money" without documentation. Spousal support, of course, is not a percentage (as is child support) so it's more question and answer, a matter of proof.

What would you do if you were a Judge? Well, you'd be bound by the law - and I would think the Judge was and if "she" (I believe it was a "she") I'd be purchasing a transcript and going back to Court to get that decision overturned.

My own experience? Family member, unmarried, filed for child support on the day the DNA proved paternity. NY law REQUIRES that the non-custodial parent begin to pay on the date of filing, not the date of the hearing. Judge ruled (in this case) that that would be "unfair," and awarded child support six months after the Petition was filed. Mother (custodial parent) "lost" six months of child support.

Purchased the transcript. Appealed. Lost - same Judge.

Why? I don't know.

It's not always fair.

Thank you for your answer. I am not looking for sympathy, I am looking for a legal way to correct what happened in court.

My attorney assured me that expenses were not needed for this type of case. He printed out a form the Fairfax, VA courts use to determine support. Nowhere on that form is there a place for expenses. My lawyer was a "fellow of matramonial law"... I thought my best option was to listen to him and his experience in this type of action. I did not have a clue my husband was going to present a list of his expenses.

I did not ask for a certain amount. I wanted the court to decide what would be fair based on income so my paperwork asked for spousal support in the amount of "pursuant to guidelines". I had my expenses all figured out, but again my lawyer assured me I would not need to bring them to court.

Please explain why I should purchase a transcript and how that would help me to get the decision overturned. The judge already denied a motion for a new hearing. On what basis could I ask to get it overturned... and can that be done after I've been denied a new hearing?

Thank you for your help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayceegirl

Thank you for your answer. I am not looking for sympathy, I am looking for a legal way to correct what happened in court.

My attorney assured me that expenses were not needed for this type of case. He printed out a form the Fairfax, VA courts use to determine support. Nowhere on that form is there a place for expenses. My lawyer was a "fellow of matramonial law" ...I thought my best option was to listen to him and his experience in this type of action. I did not have a clue my husband was going to present a list of his expenses.

I did not ask for a certain amount. I wanted the court to decide what would be fair based on income so my paperwork asked for spousal support in the amount of "pursuant to guidelines". I had my expenses all figured out, but again my lawyer assured me I would not need to bring them to court.

Please explain why I should purchase a transcript and how that would help me to get the decision overturned. The judge already denied a motion for a new hearing. On what basis could I ask to get it overturned...and can that be done after I've been denied a new hearing?

Thank you for your help.

I don't know what the grounds for appeal are in your State and would have to research. I would think in terms of "bad" legal representation or anything else that might work.

A transcript is necessary in NY if you are arguing that the decision was NOT based on law. (As I said, I purchased a NY transcript, it was a bad decision, "we" lost. It's a toss of the dice.)

I DEFINITELY would speak to another Attorney!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I don't know what the grounds for appeal are in your State and would have to research. I would think in terms of "bad" legal representation or anything else that might work.

A transcript is necessary in NY if you are arguing that the decision was NOT based on law. (As I said, I purchased a NY transcript, it was a bad decision, "we" lost. It's a toss of the dice.)

I DEFINITELY would speak to another Attorney!

In my state there is a 10 day deadline to file for an appeal. I have passed that deadline. Would seeking an amendment be something I could do?

Is there a difference between appealing a case within 10 days of a decision... or going to a court of appeals? Is that a different process that would not have a 10 day time frame?

What is "normal appellate process" at this point?

Ab

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayceegirl

... I filed for an appeal within 10 days, but cancelled it ...
I asked for a new trial ... The judge denied my request ...

I thought the fact pattern you related in this thread looked familiar. You already asked about this issue, in your other thread.

A motion for a new trial and an appeal are indeed two different things. In a MFNT, you ask the judge to re-think what she has decided. In an appeal, you ask that a higher, appellate court find that the judge erred, and that it second-guess, over-rule, and reverse the decision.

The Judicial Inquiry and Review Commission is a third avenue, but, as they told you, it has no authority to review or change the judge's rulings or decisions. Normally such bodies exist for the purpose of disciplining judges, not over-ruling them. What they mean by saying that the "only avenue for review of such matters is through the normal appellate process," is that you should have followed through with your appeal.

You dismissed your appeal and that is the end of it, as far as your case is concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayceegirl

... What or where can I turn to now? What is my next step? How can someone commit perjury in a courtroom and no one cares? ...

You do understand that perjury is a crime?
You could try to persuade the district attorney to prosecute him for criminal perjury.

Ab

If you have new info you post a follow-up to your thread, not start a new thread. You were warned before about not starting new threads and your threads have been merged yet again.

Ab

I understand your not being familiar, but no this was not a new question. It bore on the previous issues and knowing the full story helps us give you the best answer. As I pointed out you were previously told about starting new threads.

No I don't see any bad attitudes here. You have been getting accurate opinions on the legal issues. Its not our fault that those opinions are not what you want to hear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayceegirl

I thought this was a new question because it was based on a response from the Judicial Committee.

I am not familiar with this site, a little more understanding would be nice. I have tried my hardest to do what is supposed to be the right thing to do, yet when I come here for help I seem to keep running into mostly bad attitudes, and not an understanding that there is someone who is doing the best they know how to do but seems to keep running into roadblocks.

Quite frankly - if that is what you want to hear - you have received right-on information based on what you have posted.

You have the bad attitude - comments about the legal system in general, your Attorney, the Judges, the attitude of the Court, all of them skewed by your failure (or your Attorney's failure) to get pertinent info admitted to Court.

I see no bad attitude here from the people who are trying to help you.

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