Ask Me Help Desk - Does signing over guardianship terminate parental rights?

Does signing over guardianship terminate parental rights?

Hi, my sister was shown the last page of a guardianship form that only said she was giving guarndianship of her son to her sons grandparents. The grandparents convinced my sister it was only in case something medical happened to to her son while in his care. She believed them and then signed and had notorized the form. Later, she was told there was a court proceeding (she did not even know about) that had already signed the grandparents as legal guardians of her son with "No limitations" which of course the grandparents filled out. So, without her complete knowledge she now has signed over FULL guardianship to them! Does this mean she does not have any parental rights because for over 6 months, they will only let her see her son one day a week... not a day more, ever. My sister is a good Mom and is completely fit to take care of her son. Is there also any way she can petition against this or terminate the order? She is looking for full custody, as the father was in complete acknoledgement of signing over his parental rights.

Welcome to AMHD. I am curious: how could there be a court proceeding involving your sister's child that she did not know about? What state is she, the grandparents, and the child in? Thanks

They are all in Illinois. The father was not willing to accept the responisibility of his son, so my sister thought it was OK the grandparents got involved so there would still be a strong link between her son and his father and fathers family. My guess to the question about how she did not know about the court proceeding is the grandparents prob. Told the jugde they couldn't find her or where she lived.

How close are you to the court? Can you, or have you, visited the courthouse and read the file?

No I have not but when she told the grandparents she was going to keep her son for a couple more days, they threated to bring the police to pick him up and that she did not have that right. She asked why and they said she had signed over all of her rights. When the grandparent came to pick up her son he gave her a copy of the court preceedings granting them full guardianship, stamped by the court and signed by the judge in Feb. of this year. They just handed her this paper last week. (She Never had knowledge of any of this and was never served papers of given a court date)

I'm certain you (and your sister) are frustrated and disappointed, but your sister is getting legal advice from her adversary, which is never a good thing. Is she working? And, can she afford an attorney?

Quote:

Originally Posted by midwestmom

No I have not but when she told the grandparents she was going to keep her son for a couple more days, they threated to bring the police to pick him up and that she did not have that right. She asked why and they said she had signed over all of her rights. When the grandparent came to pick up her son he gave her a copy of the court preceedings granting them full guardianship, stamped by the court and signed by the judge in Feb. of this year. They just handed her this paper last week. (She Never had knowledge of any of this and was never served papers of given a court date)

Then she needs to go the Court that gave the grandparents custody and file for a rehearing - or a new hearing on the grounds of fraud.

I'm a little confused that the Court would accept her notarized "authorization" and then accept a claim the grandparents didn't know where she is - who got the notary and who was the notary who verified her signature? (The notary only guarantees that the signature is that of the person bearing that particular ID but I'd like to know just where the notary came from.)

She needs either an Attorney or she can go back to Court herself - I obviously would retain an Attorney. She should brace herself for a fight because there must be some reason the grandparents thought they were justified in taking this action.

Is she paying support for the child? If not, that could be an issue against her.

The notary came from a currency exchange in Chicago

Quote:

Originally Posted by midwestmom

The notary came from a currency exchange in Chicago

She and the Grandparents actually went into an office in person and she signed? Who prepared the document?

Doesn't really matter, just curious.

She needs an Attorney - or she needs to go down and talk to the Clerk of the Court. And she (as George said) needs to stop getting legal advice from the Grandparents. They've lied to her before; they may be lying to her now.

Here is the best resource I've located thus far. Your sister needs a copy of the complete file concerning custody of her child; it will make everything simpler and quicker for her to take the next step. At this point, we don't know whether the grandparents have an order for 'guardianship' or 'custody'; or whether it is temporary or permanent (even the 'permanent' kind can be modified, so don't worry about that). See: DivorceNet - Illinois Child Custody FAQ's

My sister has never been charged with anything in her life, but has since found out that the grandparents lied in court to get custody of their children from their ex spouses when their children where younger. I believe they are crooked and controlling and they have become attached to the child and don't want to let him go and obviously would do anything to keep him. She is a good mom and this is very unfair

Does my sister have ANY rights to her son at all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by midwestmom

Does my sister have ANY rights to her son at all?

Of course, she's the natural mother - she needs to get the grandparent's guardianship set aside or modified. She needs to get an order for visitation (minimally) and she needs to pay support. Did you answer that question? Does she pay support?

If she is somehow unfit, well, then that's another matter.

The grandparents prepared the document, it looks like it was a copy of a legal document. She only signed one page in Feb. and never seen the other two until last week. Which those are the pages containing the court stamp and Judge signature. Also explaining both parents give the grandparents guardianship. The one she signed that was notarized said she is the above named person and she is giving guardianship to the grandparents. Which the explained to her not to worry is was only partial guardianship and it was for medical purposes only. My sister is nieve and I am not and cannot stand for this to happen

No she does not pay support, she wasn't aware she had signed over full guardianship until last week. They had kept that info from her until she tried to keep her son

Quote:

Originally Posted by midwestmom

No she does not pay support, she wasn't aware she had signed over full guardianship until last week. They had kept that info from her until she tried to keep her son

So the grandparents have been supporting the child without any help from her? I don't think she needed a Court Order to realize the child needs to eat.

Not being harsh but she needs to step up and take responsibility here and the Court will look at issues like this.

I do agree that she needs to step up. She never knew how much she needed to until she was given that copy last week. She will need to justify why she didn't step forward since Feb. when she did only seem him minimally. She does buy him food, clothes and toys regulary. Which I am sure they will deny without proof which of course my sister never knew she would need

If they make false accusations like they did with their exspouses, how will she defend herself? Will she say "hearsay" or please provide proof?

Quote:

Originally Posted by midwestmom

I do agree that she needs to step up. She never knew how much she needed to until she was given that copy last week. She will need to justify why she didn't step forward since Feb. when she did only seem him minimally. She does buy him food, clothes and toys regulary. which I am sure they will deny without proof which of course my sister never knew she would need

Money is the answer. She needs to send money, not buy things for him - he needs food and electricity and shelter. But I'm sure you know that and now she realizes it.

Feeding him on occasion and buying him some clothes and toys will not be considered to be supporting her child.

What about the false accusations question

Quote:

Originally Posted by midwestmom

what about the false accusations question

She brings her proof and they bring theirs and the Judge decides.

If you don't mind my getting personal - and you don't have to go into great detail - what are they/will they allege? Many of these things can simply be countered by the way you present yourself, your medical records, your employment record, your Police Record. They ARE allowed to bring in hearsay (this is not criminal court) but, of course, if it's terribly off the wall no one will pay attention.

She can bring witnesses; they can bring witnesses. She is her own best witness - the way she presents herself, she must keep her temper, she must be clear and respond to the questions. If there were problems she needs to address them, not deny them, and explain how she has straightened things around, the steps she continues to take.

If there were problems in the past and she's resolved them, that will be taken into consideration. If there are/were problems she may get a visitation schedule set up and then as she proves herself, her visitation will gradually increase.

Depending on the circumstances custody may not be changed back to her but I do see visitation with an eye to custody down the road.

I don't know what the Court will do about the fraud - that remains to be seen.

I don't like it and I always complain when people turn these posts personal but she is very, very fortunate to have you, a supportive sister, in her life and you can also present yourself to the Court as an interested party, someone who is aware of the situation, someone who is willing to help both parties resolve this, for the good of the child. I note you don't rant and rave about the grandparents. You present what you have to say clearly and concisely without anger. A lot of people go through this alone and you are a stand up person! Your sister is very fortunate.

Was your sister married to the father? You have been using the word 'guardian' or 'guardianship', rather than 'custody'. Of course, your sister has rights in a custody proceeding. Once you have a copy of the proceedings and the order (whether guardianship or custody), she can take the order by the sheriff's office and have them look at it to see if she can get their assistance in taking custody of her child. They have experience reading documents like this and will tell you what they can do to help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by George_1950

Was your sister married to the father? You have been using the word 'guardian' or 'guardianship', rather than 'custody'. Of course, your sister has rights in a custody proceeding. Once you have a copy of the proceedings and the order (whether guardianship or custody), she can take the order by the sheriff's office and have them look at it to see if she can get their assistance in taking custody of her child. They have experience reading documents like this and will tell you what they can do to help.

This depends on the State - in my area the Police will not get involved in a family court matter. They will advise the mother to go back to Court. The whole "was my child kidnapped by the other parent" question gets posted somewhat frequently because of this.

Police have no way of knowing if the Order is still valid, has been modified, whatever the situation is.

Obviously different where you are -

Thank you so much for both of your answers. If you can think of anything else that ma help in this case please feel free to comment or ask for further info. No she did not marry the father of her child, in fact she is in the process of getting a restaining order against him. Court is Friday

I'm sorry, but the court on Friday is for the restraining order

Quote:

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

This depends on the State - in my area the Police will not get involved in a family court matter. They will advise the mother to go back to Court. The whole "was my child kidnapped by the other parent" question gets posted somewhat frequently because of this.

Police have no way of knowing if the Order is still valid, has been modified, whatever the situation is.

Yes, let me distinguish because where I live the Sheriff is (more or less) the enforcement arm of the court, not the police. I would not get the police department involved unless it was a last recourse. What I would do is go to the courthouse and get a copy of the entire file, front to back. Find any "orders" and read them carefully to determine whether the grandparents have 'guardianship' or 'custody'. If it says 'guardianship', I would expect the sheriff would go with the mother and pick-up the child.

Oh yeah! She was advised my an attorney to not petition for visitation because that would be acknowledgement of the court order.

After an order is filed, it is considered 'acknowledged' by 'all the world', whether they've seen it or not. Why not work on the custody/guardianship issue first, and worry about visitation later. I don't see where this attorney's advice would matter because the grandparents provided your sister with plenty of evidence that something was cooking with respect to the child.

Quote:

Originally Posted by George_1950

Yes, let me distinguish because where I live the Sheriff is (more or less) the enforcement arm of the court, not the police. I would not get the police department involved unless it was a last recourse. What I would do is go to the courthouse and get a copy of the entire file, front to back. Find any "orders" and read them carefully to determine whether the grandparents have 'guardianship' or 'custody'. If it says 'guardianship', I would expect the sheriff would go with the mother and pick-up the child.

I don't have Police where I live - I should have said Law Enforcement Officers. We only have Sheriffs and State Troopers, not a local Police force.

But they still won't get involved. As I said, they want a Court Order first. They are not willing to review paperwork and make a legal determination as to whether that paperwork is still in good standing and/or modified or even correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by George_1950

After an order is filed, it is considered 'acknowledged' by 'all the world', whether they've seen it or not. Why not work on the custody/guardianship issue first, and worry about visitation later. I don't see where this attorney's advice would matter because the grandparents provided your sister with plenty of evidence that something was cooking with respect to the child.

I agree with you - what?

Hello mom:

I've been reading the good advice you've already gotten. Now, your last response has me caterwompus...

Given her situation, I don't know why an attorney would tell her NOT to petition for visitation. If he heard the WHOLE story, VISITATION would have nothing to do with what his job would be. If he heard the whole story, his job would be to overturn the guardianship -NOT VISITATION.

If he DID hear the whole story and said what he said, she should NOT hire that lawyer. If he heard the whole story and we're NOT hearing it, then we need the whole story.

Why again, is the reason she gave them up?

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by midwestmom

oh yeah! She was advised my an attorney to not petition for visitation because that would be acknowledgement of the court order.

Actually I agree with the attorney's advice. She should be fighting the guardianship. But what I'm not clear on is how the child got to the grandparents in the first place. The father may have relinquished his rights (though I question that), but why did the child move in with the grandparents? How did that come about? Does she want to child to live with her full time or does she just want to see him more often?

Clearly your sister has been taken advantage of, but to what extent its hard to tell. She really needs an attorney to be an advocate so she goes about things the right way.

OK back to the beginning... My sister was 15 when she had the baby. She and the baby lived with the father, who lived with his parents. The named grandparents in this case.

So, when she left her boyfriend (the father) they agreed to share the child 50/50 (I hope is not a crule way of putting it) Just so they wouldn't fight on who gets custody. The boyfriend still lived with his parents so they took care of the child a lot. The time that my sister got with the child started to dwindle and the grandparents started having problems with their son (the child's father) so they had the papers drawn up on guardianship, then convincing my sister that it was only for partial guardianship and not to worry. It was in case of emergency. It was not easy for the two parents (my sis and exboyfriend) on transportation. They lived over an hour away from each other so the grandparents would drive sometimes.

How old is your sister now? How old was she when she signed those documents? When the child was born did the father sign the Birth Certificate or was he listed on it? Was there any court proceedings to determine custody or paterntity prior to to last February? How old was the father when the child was born. What State is this?

Thank you! You should have lots of good advice to follow.

My sister is 19. She just turned 19 when she signed. The father signed the birth certificate BUT legally, paternity has not yet been established. (btw, he is the father). The father was 16 when the child was born. We are in Illinois. The father, grandparents, and the mother were living in different counties but now if there are any court proceedings it will be in Kane county, IL

She really needs a lawyer! She was over 18 when she signed meaning that legally speaking she was capable of making such a decision. If the father signed the afidavid of paternaty at birth then legally he is the father generally the only time a DNA test is required is when he dosen't sign. The fact that he was underage could be a factor if brought up in court but I don't see it having much bearing because if the judge does order a DNA test and it comes back positive then it's basically a mute point.

It doesn't really matter if he is the father. The fact is the grandparents are named and are the guardians of the child. What should my sister do ? What steps may she take? Obviously she is young and does not have much money, so an attorney is prob out of the question. Someone said she could try going to the courthouse and getting the file, bringing it to the sheriff and picking up the child. Can she do that in the state of Illinois? They threatened to bring the police to my house and pick him up with police escort because the mom wanted to keep him longer

How hard would it be to prove FRAUD is afoot in this situation without going in front of the judge with an attorney? Will the judge say it is invalid because it wasn't done right? Could they just end the guadianship if the judge sees the proof? There were errors in the paperwork which were overlooked by whomever sealed and the judge that signed it.

Any attorney is going to tell me I need him/her so they stay in business. There has to be a way we could do this... any answers?