Hello,

I recently started a remodel in my basement (total home with basement = +/- 1900 sq ft) and have consulted with a few electricians and have had a number of different issues and bits of advice which have left me confused. My house was built in the 40's and has had many electrical "upgrades" that I have now inherited. Luckily all of the inside cloth wiring was replaced when the house was bought last.

Firstly, I have a 125 AMP GE service (16 spaces) panel that looks to be from the early 80's hopefully. It is filled to the gills and seems to be overflowing to me. I wanted to expand the number of spaces to accommodate the additional outlets/lighting that will not have much load but I would like to keep things organized and separated as much as possible. All of the appliances are electric; range, washer, oil furnace, dishwasher, fridge (x2) discharge pump and water heater.

I have been told that I need to upgrade my service by one electrician and that it was not necessary, but needed additional spaces by another. I was told this could be done by either changing the panel or adding a sub panel. I was told to upgrade to a 200 AMP panel and it would not be much of a job and that I could save some money by purchasing the panel myself and by doing a few things like driving 2 grounding rods more than 6' apart in the ground near the meter. This seemed logical to me given that it would exceed any power needs I would ever have. I went and purchased what I was told, used a little water and patience to get the grounding rods in place and have not heard back from the electrician in quite some time regardless of payments made. I have exceeded the return period on the service panel kit and now have some additional concerns.

I recently had some issues with the outside wiring and had the POCO out to replace an insulator to restore consistent power to the leg that was dropping. The POCO told me that I had a 60 AMP socket base and that my outside wiring (not great looking, old and cloth covered) is not adequate for a 200 AMP panel and could be a problem. They told me that I would need to change out the wire to 4/0, add a weather head as well as a meter socket. I was told this would require an electrician, permits and coordination with them.

I contacted a few local people regarding getting the outdoor work done and it is considerably beyond my budget. I now have a load center and breakers that I think are unusable without first having the outside work done. Is this a correct assumption? I have seen 125 amp boxes with additional spaces that would suit my needs but want to be see what others would recommend so I can follow the consensus and not waste any more time or money.

1. Can I remove the 125 AMP box and mount the 200 AMP box in its place as long as I do not exceed 125 AMP load? (to save the shiny new panel I bought)

2. Would a house this size call for 200 AMP serve (in your opinion)

3. Are main breakers in load centers replaceable? (The age of the box concerns my wife)

4. If the main breaker is replaceable and the type of breakers match, could it be moved to a new, more modern main lug load center like a GE PowerMark Gold 125 amp 24-Space 24-Circuit Main Lug Load Center.

I understand that this can be dangerous work and am just trying to get informed as it seems like everyone has a different opinion the one electrician that made the most sense has taken the money and run. I am comfortable with inside electricity and the panel itself, for the most part and am open to learning what I need to get this right and keep the family safe. Thank you in advance for any advice you could give. Thanks for both your time and attention.

Answers:

1. No, if the 200 amp panel has the 200 amp main breaker, the entire service entrance equipment, meter, cable, as per POCO, needs to be upgraded to 200 amp rated.

If you only have a 60 amp rated meter socket, and cable, you only have a 60 amp service, no matter the size panel you have.

You may have a 125 amp rated panel, but what is the main breaker or fuse size?

2. Need to know accurate square footage of livable space and list of all major electric appliances, heat and air conditioning to size a service.

3. Sometimes, depending on age and brand.

4.You lost me here.

Sounds like the electrician was only going to change the panel, size of main still unknown, which was probably not going to be proper.

If he took your money, did you have any documents or receipts? Contact the licensing board for your state, they may have a Consumer Protection board to help with crooks.

Thanks for the reply, TK. I can only see part of your reply for some reason. I cannot see anything past your answer to #1. Could you repost your answers or PM me if possible with the remainder. Thanks again for your insight.

Jason

Try this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tkrussell

Answers:



1. No, if the 200 amp panel has the 200 amp main breaker, the entire service entrance equipment, meter, cable, as per POCO, needs to be upgraded to 200 amp rated.

If you only have a 60 amp rated meter socket, and cable, you only have a 60 amp service, no matter the size panel you have.

You may have a 125 amp rated panel, but what is the main breaker or fuse size?

2. Need to know accurate square footage of livable space and list of all major electric appliances, heat and air conditioning to size a service.

3. Sometimes, depending on age and brand.

4.You lost me here.

Sounds like the electrician was only going to change the panel, size of main still unknown, which was probably not going to be proper.

If he took your money, did you have any documents or receipts? Contact the licensing board for your state, they may have a Consumer Protection board to help with crooks.

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thank you, I was able to see all of your answers after I posted the last reply. I'll try to answer as accurately as possible.

1. Thanks, I thought this was the case, and it makes perfect sense. I do have a 125 AMP main fuse that resides in the box.
2. We live in a home that has about 1700 sq ft of livable space. There is a laundry room and a small storage area that are "unconditioned" and not used as living space. The appliances are a range, oil furnace, A/C unit, dishwasher, fridge (x2), washing machine discharge pump for the washing machine, dryer and a 30g water heater.
3. I will look more into this by referencing the model number
4. I guess what I was trying to ask is; can I swap out the main fuses between the 2 boxes I have? They are both GE and use the same style breakers and one is fused at 125 and the new one has a 200 amp breaker. The only difference appearsto be the physical size and number of available spaces.

When you said I am getting 60 AMP service regardless of the panel, does this mean that the present situation is dangerous? If this is not dangerous, is it possible for me to mount the 200 AMP box now and have the exterior upgraded at a later time? I have not been tripping any breakers or had any problems (other than the POCO having to come out for that insulator) but would just like the basement room lighting separated from the upstairs for convenience.

I do have some receipts but none pertaining directly to the work he was supposed to do and the receipts I do have exceed the return date for the equipment. I definitely made a costly mistake "hiring" a "friend of a friend". Thank you again for all of your time and help. I hope this is written a little more clearly. I do have pictures of everything if that would help anything. Have a happy Thanksgiving.

Jason

I only state you have a 60 amp meter per your statement:

The POCO told me that I had a 60 AMP socket base

Pictures may help, but I have to assume POCO is correct, can only confirm by looking inside for the label.

And currently you have a 125 amp panel connected to this meter? If it is 60 amp, then this was incorrect all along. Changing the panel only to a 200 amp will be more dangerous.

Need to get a handle on the actual size of the incoming feeder cable and meter.

I cannot complete the service rating calculations without knowing the exact wattage or amps of the AC unit, assuming a max size, the home needs 100 amps at least, 125 amps would be more comfortable.

This is based on 1700 SF of space, does the basement add to this or is it included?

Swapping parts in panels is not really allowed, esp changing amp rating. This will void the UL listing, and field connections are never the same as factory connections.

Again, first need to know the amp rating of all your service equipment, and need more detail to perform service rating calculations.

Thank you again for your help. You are knowledgeable, quick, clear and incredibly patient... A true gentleman.

I would have to assume that the POCO is right and that things are incorrect to begin with. There have been a lot of "hands in the cookie jar" over the years. I also understand that there is no way to calculate the load needed without the appliance ratings but do appreciate you estimate and believe it to be correct (125 being enough). The square footage I talked about (1700) does include the basement space. I am resolved to getting another electrician out here and having the outside portion of my home updated, it looks old, cloth wire, is hanging precariously without being secured to the building and isn't what I would consider a job well done. The only good looking thing out there is the new meter the POCO put in last year so they could read it from the road (RF, I think). I would like to do it right with appropriate wiring, conduit, weather protection and a proper meter socket that consists of more than just the meter on concrete block.

I guess the way to add space would have been a sub-panel but regardless, the outside work seems to be a necessity before doing anything additional. I wish I would have realized that my "contractor" was a miss before the return period expired on my receipt for the load center. I read you loud and clear on not trying to cannibalize one box to make it work. I guess a $140 mistake as a worst-case scenario isn't as bad as it could have been. Is there a good online outlet for selling equipment that you could recommend (only if it is allowed by the forum please)?

What is the danger in the setup that I currently have? I bought this house about 8 years ago and have tripped a breaker only once due to running multiple electric heaters (ran out of oil for a day) I do have a family with young children and they are my primary concern. I am not sure of the gauge of the feeders but the line is the same size all the way through the meter to the POCO connection at the roof-line. Is there a way to measure the line size without specialized tools so that I can determine what it is that I am dealing with?

I also have a semi-related question that I could use help with. I have driven 2 grounding rods into the earth, more than 6' apart that were to be used with the new setup, I would like to incorporate their protection into my existing panel. What # wire is required to attach them and I have read conflicting things regarding its being bare or insulated and how the wire is attached. Do you have an answer or preference if there is any latitude allowed?

Thanks again for all of your help, you have saved me much larger problems with your time and expertise.

Jason

Service rating calculations are based on statistics, averages, and reasonable assumptions to allow enough capactiy for the possibles total loads that may occur and need to be maintained safely.

Real life loads depends on so many unknown factors, how many people, life style, types of loads, demand, etc. Would seem that if you do have only a 60 amp service, all has been low enough to not cause problems. If you do have a 60 amp service feeding a 125 amp panel the possible problem can be to overload the 60 amp equipment and cable, which can overheat and cause a possible fire.

Min #6 copper wire is all that is needed to connect ground rods, best to be continuous from one rod to the other, uncut and unspliced. This will connect to the neutral/ground connection in the enclosure that contains the Main Service Disconnect.

This conductor can be bare or insulated, and only needs conduit where subjected to physical damage.