Hey,

I've been setting out to change all the electrical outlets in the house just to upgrade the colour as we will be selling the house soon and like the newer look..

However after re-wiring one of the electrical outlet's it now has no power coming to it at all.
I have checked the wires themselves and they have no power. I was told by someone was some expereince to change the curicuit breaker we thought that would fix it too so we replaced the circuit breaker however there is still no power flowing to the wires.. were kind of baffled as to what the problem could be and about to call an electrian to come take a look at it if this here fails.. would appericate some inexpensive help though, thanks.

I should note that all the other electrical outlets/lighting (bathroom) on that cirucit breaker are also not functioning. However none of those outlets were touched yet.

Steve.

Okay, the simplest answer is the up stream of the troubled outlet is an GFCI outlet or breaker, that has tripped. First check the circuits and reset any GFCIs you find.

Next step is to verify whether the outlet is wired correctly. The black lead should go to the side of the outlet with the shorter slot. White should go to the longer slot's side.

It is wired correctly.. I also unwired it from the outlet and as mentioned above there is no power the wires.

Like I said.. I replaced the circuit breaker to no avail... also no circuit breakers are currently tripped right now. Wires still have no power.

Steve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by donf

Okay, the simplest answer is the up stream of the troubled outlet is an GFCI outlet or breaker, that has tripped. First check the circuits and reset any GFCIs you find.

Next step is to verify whether or not the outlet is wired correctly. The black lead should go to the side of the outlet with the shorter slot. White should go to the longer slot's side.

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I did this last year in my home... First make sure the outlet is not on a wall switch, as an outlet sometimes is wired to turn on a light when you enter a room. Usually there would be 2 sets of wires in the box in this case. Next check wires carefully because sometimes the solid core will break. Did you stretch the wires at the point where they come into the box? Also if you replaced some outlets already you may have a bad connection of one receptacle in front of the plug you're trying to install. Wiring is in series so that is another good place to start… I would bet the last is your problem.

You dinged my response as "disagreed" because from where you are, you can see that the wires are properly attached and I can't? :) It must have been my monitor. Hold your monitor closer to the outlet so I can get a better look!

OK sparky, do you have a circuit tester or VOM to electrical tests with, if so, have you done that already? What were the results?

Did you check the other outlets on the circuit to see if any were GFCI, as I asked above and then reset them? Are you absolutely sure that there is input voltage into and out of your breaker. Did you make absolutely sure that the problem breaker is the actually in the on position and not in a tri-stated mode. To make sure, simply turn the breaker all the way off. Push it towards "OFF" until it resets, then turn it back on again. If the breaker "trips" immediately, it means there is a dead short somewhere. Where to look would be the current outlet or the outlet you changed just before the one that is currently working on.

Pl;ease, stay with me here. I'll probably be online for another hour or so. It's a bit chaotic right now, my niece Melissa, just gave birth to a Baby Boy, a Future New York Giant to be sure. :)

Can you check for voltage at the output of the breaker. If you have voltage there and no voltage at the outlet, the problem must be at one of the other outlets. Since you have not touched them, it is most likely that one of them is a GFI that has tripped or as No-Tyme said it is a switched outlet. How many wires in the outlet box. Tell us what you see.

Ok so I took some pictures sorry they came out really bad though I don't know how to take better ones.. none of them seemed to have a "GFI" switch at the outlet themselves or anything extra other then the basic wiring. There is only one "GFI" on our circuit breaker and that is too the garage not the circuit in question.

Here's a pic of the outlet that was worked on before it stopped working..
(looks like a small slice in the wire from the picture, there is, but its not as big as look in the picture anyway I put electrical securely around it now)

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4...0017ms8.th.jpg

Here's a light switch that was not touched until I took this picture..

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7...0020sb7.th.jpg

And finally one more outlet on the same circuit that was never touched until today.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2...0021ru1.th.jpg

And here's out circuit breaker all circuits are switched to ON.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9...0022db6.th.jpg


I wasn't sure how to measure the voltage at the circuit breaker as there is only one wire (black) and I'm not sure what to measure it against with the voltmeter. And because it would have to be live power Im certinaly not going to be guessing there.

So to recap, I don't see any GFI's for this circuit.. doesn't seem to be any exposed wiring that isn't covered securely with electrical tape. It is possible that the wires were "pulled" on a little (so what would I do try pushing them back up?. ) the cirucit breaker in question was replaced and all circuit breakers are "ON"..

Thanks,
Steve.

Lets go back to basics.

What room is this outlet in?
How many wires are in the outlet box and what color?
How many other outlets are not working and where are they.
What does the switch control?
When you removed the old outlet how was it wired, were the wires under screws on the sides or were the wires stuck in the little holes in the back?

To check the breaker,
Turn multimeter to the V with wavy line.
With the breaker in the on position touch one lead of the meter to the nuetral bus bar. That's the place where all the white wires are connected.
Touch the other lead of the meter to the screw attaching the black wire to the breaker.

I can't see much from the pic because of the reflection of flash. Is the breaker the bottom one on the left (there appears to be a yellow tag next to it)? I seem to see something in the middle of the flash reflection area.
This isn't a GFI breaker is it.

Just to make me happy, press the test and reset on the garqage GFI.

Don't worry we will find the problem.

This is the 1 front hall outlet/bathroom.
2 black, 2 white, 1 ground.
There are 2 outlets and 1 lightswitch on this circuit. NONE have any power to ANY of the wires associated with them.
The wires were in the little holes in the back. I re-wired it that way a correctly, I also hade the wires out and not hooked up to anything (still no power).

I have pressed the GFI button for the garage and then turn it back on. Seems OK.
The breaker in question is the 2nd one from the bottom left. The 3rd from the bottom the left is the GFI to the garage NOT the breaker in question.

I just measured the volatage at the breaker I get 120 volts there. 0 at all three outlets/light switches.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

Lets go back to basics.

What room is this outlet in?
How many wires are in the outlet box and what color?
How many other outlets are not working and where are they.
What does the switch control?
When you removed the old outlet how was it wired, were the wires under screws on the sides or were the wires stuck in the little holes in the back?

To check the breaker,
Turn multimeter to the V with wavy line.
With the breaker in the on position touch one lead of the meter to the nuetral bus bar. Thats the place where all the white wires are connected.
Touch the other lead of the meter to the screw attaching the black wire to the breaker.

I can't see much from the pic because of the reflection of flash. Is the breaker the bottom one on the left (there appears to be a yellow tag next to it)? I seem to see something in the middle of the flash reflection area.
This isn't a GFI breaker is it.

Just to make me happy, press the test and reset on the garqage GFI.

Don't worry we will find the problem.

---

Steve,

I sent a private message to both you and Harold.

Do I understand correctly that this outlet is in the hall and the other is in the bathroom?
If so the bath should be a GFI.
How are you checking for power at the outlet? Are you checking between hot (black) and nuetral (white) or hot and ground. Please check for voltage between hot and ground (bare).
Do the same in switch box.
What does switch control, do you have a ceiling light in hall? Do you have a light outside the front door, Does it work?
Do you have an outlet outside the front door, does it work?
Also, how many wires in bath outlet box?

I know that this a lot of questions but...
Electrictian not likely to put only two outlets on a circuit.

The bath is not a GFI. There is no GFI switch on the breaker board other then the garage.
There is NO power between hot and ground (bare). There is NO power anywhere.
Everything works except those listed above.
There is 2 white, 2 black, 1 ground. This is how both outlets are run that aren't working.
There is a front hall light that is on a switch and works fine. (probably on a diff circuit maybe)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

Do I understand correctly that this outlet is in the hall and the other is in the bathroom?
If so the bath should be a GFI.
How are you checking for power at the outlet? are you checking between hot (black) and nuetral (white) or hot and ground. Please check for voltage between hot and ground (bare).
Do the same in switch box.
What does switch control, do you have a ceiling light in hall? Do you have a light outside the front door, Does it work?
Do you have an outlet outside the front door, does it work?
Also, how many wires in bath outlet box?

I know that this a lot of questions but........
Electrictian not likely to put only two outlets on a circuit.

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Steve,

I'm sorry to do this but I really need to start at step one and logically move upward.

Are you willing to work with me? If you are currentley online and have VOM Meter, we should be able to knock this out today!

OK sounds like we can forget the switch. Or do I misunderstand, is there another switch that light is on or is this switch we have been talking about.

The fact that there are two black and two white in each outlet indicates that there is something else on the circuit. It could be a light.

If you have a set of wires (a black and a white) coming into the first outlet, (which ever one that is) and a set going out to the second outlet, and at the second outlet you would have a set coming in and you have a set going out, there must be something else on the circuit.

I know that you are getting frustrated but hang in there.
Are there any GFI in kitchen or other baths?

Im here...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by donf

Steve,

I'm sorry to do this but I really need to start at step one and logically move upward.

Are you willing to work with me? If you are currentley online and have VOM Meter, we should be able to knock this out today!

---

I am mistaken there is 1 more switch on the other side of the wall I completely forgot about because we never use it.. it wasn't touched though. I took the panel off now and it looks OK.. tried flicking it on and off doesn't make a difference. Im not really sure what it does anyway could control the power or just be a light switch with no light.. anyway I don't thin it's the problem as it was never touched?. so that's 2 lights and 2 outlets all with no power. Im thinking maybe a wire got pulled on too hard? If that is the case I wouldn't know how about tracing it the wall and making it secure?.

Steve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

OK sounds like we can forget the switch. Or do I misunderstand, is there another switch that light is on or is this switch we have been talking about.

The fact that there are two black and two white in each outlet indicates that there is some thing else on the circuit. It could be a light.

If you have a set of wires (a black and a white) coming into the first outlet, (which ever one that is) and a set going out to the second outlet, and at the second outlet you would have a set coming in and you have a set going out, there must be something else on the circuit.

I know that you are getting frustrated but hang in there.
Are there any GFI in kitchen or other baths?

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Okay Steve,

Step one, pull the failing circuit breaker out of the panel box. Turn the main power off while you do this but do not remove the black wire from the breaker. While you have the breaker in your hands see how far to the Off position you can move the handle. Now Leave the breaker in the off position. At the Service Entry Panel Box, turn the main power on. Set the meter for 200 VAC. Connect the Black meter lead to the Neutral BUS. This will be an Aluminum bar with all of the White wires plugged into it.

Clip the black lead either onto the white lead coming from the breaker you removed or onto the Neutral Bar itself. Turn the panel box back on and very carefully measure from Neutral (Black) Probe and the bare spot under the breaker. What is the voltage you are reading? If you verify the voltage, then we know that the power to the breaker is on.

Turn Main power back off and install the breaker with the breaker in the off position turn main power back on and with the red probe, check for the voltage level between the Neutral Buss and the black wire on the breaker. It should be Zero Volts AC. Turn the breaker on and re-test the black wire to neutral. What's the VAC now?

Get back to me with the voltage reading as soon as you reasonably can

That outlet in the bath has to be GFI protected. It is probably coming through the GFI in another bath.
The other switch in the hall may control the outlet but I doubt it because you have a ceiling light.

So there might be a "GFI" in the outlet itself in the bathroom on the top floor? You recommending that I check for it?.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

That outlet in the bath has to be GFI protected. It is probably coming thru the GFI in another bath.
The other switch in the hall may control the outlet but I doubt it because you have a ceiling light.

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Lynx, you used the rate this answer part incorrectly. Your mark basically says Don is inaccurate but based on what you said he was correct in starting there. No need to worry about a newbie mistake. Harold and I have given Don back more than he had.

Had! What did I have, that I didn't know I had, but I digress. I'm finally watching the Superball! :)

Yes, push test and reset.


Yes Don, you are now entitle to a 10% raise.

OK after looking at what a GFI looks like on Google I have NONE of those on any outlets in the house.. there's only one GFI and that's on the breaker board itself for the garage. Looks like this is not going to get solved here anyway..

OK, just to make sure push the test and reset on it. There is another exlpanation that does not involve GFI , that's wher we are going next.

Steve, Have had a chance to start the Voltage tests I suggested? Too much has been pulled and put back. Let's get a stick in the ground by making sure the breaker is being fed and it's output is correct.

Steve reread post an see that you have already reset GFI of garage circuit. Sorry.

Don,
Steve confirmed voltage at breaker, see last post on page one.

Steve,

Remember how the old outlet was wired using the little holes in the back. That's an indication that all of you outlets and switches are wired that way. This wiring method can develop shorts over time. These shorts can be at the wire coming into the outlet or in the wire going out of the outlet to the next one. If it is in the wire coming into the outlet the outlet will not work. If it is in the wire going out to the next outlet, that outlet will work but the next one won't. You have to check switches also. To find where the short you can turn off the breaker and find all things that do not work. You then remove these outlets and switches from their boxes and rewire under screws.

Remember because of the number of wires in the boxes, there has to be something else on this circuit.

Steve,

I'm tying to sketch out your circuit from the breaker through to the last item on the circuit.

As I see what I drew, it made no sense to me. Please help me get a clear snapshot of the end to end circuit.

What is the size and amperage rating for the circuit breaker? From the breaker the black wire goes out to a load point, White runs from the Neutral Bus to the first load point.

If the first load point is an outlet, them B/W from the breaker would go to the bottom two connector points. This is the line In pair. If all that is present on the outlet is a B/W pair, then the outlet is at the end of the circuit. However, if there is a second pair of wires leaving the top corrections then we have some more options. Is the outlet a feed to another outlet or switch, If it is going to a switch, then you should see a black piece of tape wrapped around the white wire let me know that presence of tape to signify the whits is no longer being used as a neutral , it is now a Hot line.

Usually you will see on the breaker door, the breaker's number and what is on the circuit controls. We need to step through each load tap on the circuit so that's why I want to start there and build a circuit map.

In the earlier posting I told you to set the VOM at 200 VAC. If you can go up a notch to 600 VAC, that would also be safe. I'm going to try to make some sense out of your configuration while wait on you for the info.

Please do not try to be a hero when asked for voltage reading at the panel, turn off the suspect breaker and the Main Power before removing the breaker once, I'd also like the know the Voltage and Amperage ratting of the old breaker.

Even though you have the main panel power off, remember you are still in a quick kill or maim area, so don't do anything inside that box unless you are sure of what you are of what you are doing. Get the amperage readings by reading the value off the breaker handle. Voltage readings will require you to use the meter with the black probe attached to common and the bed lead to the point you are testing,

In the mean time, I'll continue to try the sketch the circuit and we can see just how close we are, Receptacles can be designated as R1/R/2 Switches as S1 or S2, overhead lights as L1/L2. Clear enough?

Since you have already removed

What do we know at this point?

We know that according too Steve, the questioned breaker is supplying 120 VAC.
We know that Steve believes that the outlet he is working on is dead.
We know there there are several other switches are also dead.
We know that Steve believes the outlet is a direct connect back to the breaker.

We can easily test this for continuity simply by removing one black line from the outlet and either use a continuity tester or Resistance reading from the black wire to the bare wire ground at the outlet. If its open, Steve can test with the other black lead.

If both yield an open condition, then we know for sure either the wires from the outlet have a open or there is something else downstream of the receptacle that Steve has not found yet, correct? If one yield continuity, then we know that the black is probably a home run wire and we can run the tests again using the white wires. Once we find the correct pair of wires back to the panel block, Then we can disconect the white wires and complete the wring out until we have the correct black/white paring. Now we go back to the panel box and turn main power off connect the white lead to its position in the neutral bus bar. Leave the wires at the fist outlet open, connect the black lead to the white wire, the red lead to the black lead, turn the breaker on and verify that the Circuit Breaker is now sending 120 VAC to the outlet. From there, turn the breaker off, install the remaining black /white pair into the top of the outlet, run on the beaker and see if the voltage holds at outlet and the rest of the loads along the circuit are also working.

Bob, I know we could just use voltage tests on OL #1, but I'd rather know for sure that the wires are correctly matched. Do you think the process is worthy of a try or can you come up with a better process?

Yeah hmm I don't know cause NONE of them are working.. and its an important to note once again I only fiddled with one of them. Now all 4 are completely dead.. black to white, black to ground, white to ground everything is registering 0 volts on that cirucit (sometimes 0.01) that's it. And there are no GFI's I've looked in all bathrooms etc.. So I'm not sure what else it could be. Any other KISS possibilities?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

Steve,

Remember how the old outlet was wired using the little holes in the back. That’s an indication that all of you outlets and switches are wired that way. This wiring method can develop shorts over time. These shorts can be at the wire coming into the outlet or in the wire going out of the outlet to the next one. If it is in the wire coming into the outlet the outlet will not work. If it is in the wire going out to the next outlet, that outlet will work but the next one won’t. You have to check switches also. To find where the short you can turn off the breaker and find all things that do not work. You then remove these outlets and switches from their boxes and rewire under screws.

Remember because of the number of wires in the boxes, there has to be something else on this circuit.

---

I am sorry if I am rude, but this should not be this hard to trace and repair.

Using a voltage tester, and assuming you know exactly which circuit breaker feeds the circuit or outlet that has no power, begin at the breaker. Test across the black wire connected to the breaker and the neutral bar, (bar with all white wires), and if the breaker is working you will measure 120 volts.

Now trace this wire to the cable leaving the panelboard to the next junction box or outlet, again test across the black and white looking for 120 volts.

Continue onto each junction box, outlet box, etc in the circuit, each time looking for 120 volts on the voltage tester when testing across the black and white.

You will come across a point there is a loose connection, or a GFI that is tripped, that will show no voltage. Back up a bit an see voltage, you have now found the location the voltage is stopped because the circuit is broken.

Here, and at any outlet not working, a voltage reading should be taken across the black hot wire and the equipment ground. If you now see 120 volts, then this will prove that the white neutral wire is the portion of the circuit that is broken or open.

While there is always a possibility a wire is broken in a section of cable, that is highly unlikely, but this test will find it also.

If you do not know which breaker feeds the outlets not working, then your only choice is to follow the cable from the outlet with no power back to the panel, doing the same test, just in reverse, until you find 120 volts.


I do not recommend that any DIY'er use a continuity test on house wiring, as this really requires you to understand the circuit completely. A continuity test must always have the power completely off to the circuit, and each appliance , light bulb, any load at all must be disconnected or removed from the circuit. If even one light bulb remains on the circuit, a continuity test will read through the light bulb and give you a false reading.


If voltage is left on while doing a continuity test, once the test is done on live wires, the tester will be damaged and injury will come to the person holding the tester.

Ok thanks, I just thought I would ask this question before I proceed as I felt insecure about doing it.. as I'm not 100% sure which circuit breaker this is on. Is it safe/ok to test each circuit breaker against the white netural bar even if the wire going into some of the breaker's are white or red and not always black. (I was wanting to test every cirucit breaker) just wanted to make sure this is OK and indeed safe. Thanks.
Steve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tkrussell

I am sorry if I am rude, but this should not be this hard to trace and repair.

Using a voltage tester, and assuming you know exactly which circuit breaker feeds the circuit or outlet that has no power, begin at the breaker. Test across the black wire connected to the breaker and the neutral bar, (bar with all white wires), and if the breaker is working you will measure 120 volts.

Now trace this wire to the cable leaving the panelboard to the next junction box or outlet, again test across the black and white looking for 120 volts.

Continue onto each junction box, outlet box, etc in the circuit, each time looking for 120 volts on the voltage tester when testing across the black and white.

You will come across a point there is a loose connection, or a GFI that is tripped, that will show no voltage. Back up a bit an see voltage, you have now found the location the voltage is stopped because the circuit is broken.

Here, and at any outlet not working, a voltage reading should be taken across the black hot wire and the equipment ground. If you now see 120 volts, then this will prove that the white neutral wire is the portion of the circuit that is broken or open.

While there is always a possibility a wire is broken in a section of cable, that is highly unlikely, but this test will find it also.

If you do not know which breaker feeds the outlets not working, then your only choice is to follow the cable from the outlet with no power back to the panel, doing the same test, just in reverse, until you find 120 volts.


I do not recommend that any DIY'er use a continuity test on house wiring, as this really requires you to understand the circuit completely. A continuity test must always have the power completely off to the circuit, and each appliance , light bulb, any load at all must be disconnected or removed from the circuit. If even one light bulb remains on the circuit, a continuity test will read thru the light bulb and give you a false reading.


If voltage is left on while doing a continuity test, once the test is done on live wires, the tester will be damaged and injury will come to the person holding the tester.

---

Not sure I understand correctly. To test each breaker, hold and keep one voltage tester lead on the neutral bar, and use the other lead to test each breaker.

I must say, if you are the slightest unsure of anything while working in a live panelboard, do not do anything and call in a pro.

There is no room for error while working on a live panel.

Yeah I was just wondering cause some breaker's have white wires coming into them or red.

Is it OK to test breaker(white) to netural bar(also white).. or breaker(red) to netural bar(white)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tkrussell

Not sure I understand correctly. To test each breaker, hold and keep one voltage tester lead on the neutral bar, and use the other lead to test each breaker.

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Your right. I think its time to bite the bullet on this one. Since ALL circuits are 100% dead. Its just discouraging cause I have more re-wiring to do and since I don't know what this partiuclar problem is.. its preventing me from finishing my job in fear that it could happen again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tkrussell

Not sure I understand correctly. To test each breaker, hold and keep one voltage tester lead on the neutral bar, and use the other lead to test each breaker.

I must say, if you are the slightest unsure of anything while working in a live panelboard, do not do anything and call in a pro.

There is no room for error while working on a live panel.

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OK a white wire coming off a breaker can be one of two reasons, one, most likely is a two pole breaker feeding a 240 volt load, heater, dryer, range, etc. Here is where you will read 120 volts to neutral, and 240 volts across both poles of the two pole breaker.

Any white wire connected to a breaker for the purpose of a 240 volt load now gets re-marked as a hot wire by using colored tape.

You may have a single pole breaker that can be GFI or an AFCI breaker, in which case this is a neutral wire that connects to the breaker before getting connected to the neutral bar with a "pigtail".

Either of these breakers will have a "TEST" button.

Now I really don't get it.

You went from a couple of outlets that were dead to all circuits are dead?

Sorry I wasn't being clear. All outlets (3)/light switches (1) on that 1 circuit are ALL completely dead.

But the reading on that circuit breaker itself is 120 volts. (pretty sure Ive got the right breaker as we know what every other breaker does.)

There are no GFI's.

So the problem has to be in the wiring through the wall Im guessing? But Ive never ripped out a cable box to find out how that all connects there and its not like I can test it in the wall anyway it won't be bare wire.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tkrussell

Now I really don't get it.

You went from a couple of outlets that were dead to all circuits are dead?

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OK Whew... I thoght everything was falling apart on you.

Look, all there is will be a loose, broken, or corroded connection someplace. Since this all began when you started changing devices, seems to me that one of the devices you worked on is a bad connection, and you need to work your way back on the circuit looking for this broken connection, which can be one of may reason.

If you found or used any of the push in the back connections on any device, those are popular for causing bad connections. Any push in the back connection should be changed to a wrap around the screw terminal connection, for reliability.

You may have disturbed a splice unknowingly, that was bad or loose before you got there, and now is worse and causing an open circuit.

K I understand that, I'm just confused when you say work you way back looking for where there's a broken connection.. cause all outlets are broken I can work from one outlet to the next but there all broken anyway so where excatly am I testing the wires at to find something live?. sorry little confused there..

I did find one splice in a black wire that I secured with eletrical tape.. haven't been able to spot anymore..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tkrussell

OK Whew....I thoght everything was falling apart on you.

Look, all there is will be a loose, broken, or corroded connection someplace. Since this all began when you started changing devices, seems to me that one of the devices you worked on is a bad connection, and you need to work your way back on the circuit looking for this broken connection, which can be one of may reason.

If you found or used any of the push in the back connections on any device, those are popular for causing bad connections. Any push in the back connection should be changed to a wrap around the screw terminal connection, for reliability.

You may have disturbed a splice unknowingly, that was bad or loose before you got there, and now is worse and causing an open circuit.

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