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Originally Posted by tkrussell

So, Alz1, where are we at with this? Are you all set? Do you have any other questions?

You are correct, 3 wire utility to the main breaker, then4 wire to the panel. The picture you show does not have a main, therefore the neutral is not be bonded to the metal can of the panel, keeping it separate form the equipment ground. I see there are two equipment ground bars..

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This IS my MAIN panel, I do NOT have a sub panel. It is there it is just hard to see, it is black. 3 Wires come in from a milbank meter can. no disconnect there.

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Also, correct, on the tightening, tighten to torque specs and stop, no more tightening. Why is the #14 getting too short? You don't need to cut wire off to re-tighten..

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When I stested the neutral I like to have a fresh piece of wire to retighten.
No, not to short yet.

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Originally Posted by Stratmando

That Center Lug(Neutral), sounds like it connects to neutral buss on both sides of panel, and should not have Green screw Bonding to Panel Box. Needs to stay isolated. The Grounds needs a separate ground bar, and should be screwed to back of panel. Photo hard to see if 2 ground bars are present. If not you will need one. The Ground and Neutral only connect at Service..

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Mine does NOT have the 2 #9 bars connectd to the panel just the 2 on the black assembly.
The red lines are the bars behind hot lugs. The screw was alreading in the panel and bonds the 2 bars together at that dual lug, ######### EDIT...(that is why the 2 red lines are not connected, the bar is not totaly solid) and to the panel.

http://thumb5.webshots.net/t/64/564/...5sDvmzP_th.jpg if you click on the pic it will be bigger.

ALZ1

Ahh now I see it, picture was a bit cluttered with numbers, looked like a Main Lug Only panel. So then then the neutral is bonded to the metal can.

OK, so I guess your all set. Let us know what you find as the cause of the problem. It helps others to learn about symptoms and solutions.

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Originally Posted by tkrussell

Ahh now I see it, picture was a bit cluttered with numbers, looked like a Main Lug Only panel. So then then the neutral is bonded to the metal can.

OK, so I guess your all set. Let us know what you find as the cause of the problem. It helps others to learn about symptoms and solutions.

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Waiting for reply from Power Company. Will definitely post what the issue is if I can get a exact reply. They don't smile and nod anymore, I am crushed.:rolleyes:

If I were to rewire my panel like this, could that possibly/slightly(small glimmer) reduce noise interference for my PC equipment? If/when power has issues.

The hots, neutral and grounds are not being changed, just to put all the grounds one one side and neutrals on the other instead of intermingling. Your thoughts?

I have 5pc's, each circuit has 2 pcs each, laser/fax/inkjet on their own. Same leg. Direct runs.

http://thumb5.webshots.net/t/60/460/...5wIscAF_th.jpgClick to enlarge

My husband quit the ele field, rhetoric was getting worse. And since then, pc's and learning have increased with different concepts, designs and ideas.

Thanks
ALZ1

Do you mean wire your panel with 4 wire feed instead of three wire? No, since the main is in your panel, that is the point the neutral, equipment ground, and grounding electrode conductor all connect together.

The "noise' I suspect is from this defective neutral from the utility. Once that is located and repaired, all should be fine, with exception of the normal power outages, etc. No power company can guarantee un-interrupted power, too many poles, tress, squirrels, car accidents, etc.

A whole house surge protector at the panel, and individual surge protection and UPS units at each PC or outlet for multiple PC equipment will protect your computers.

Don't let the Utility push you around, or discount your problem. I cannot put my finger on it, but there is some agency or commission that regulates the utility, and you can complain to them if you do not get any satisfation.

With the neighbors having similar issues, there definitley is some problem on the utility side. They never admit it up front, and usually try to get around it, at least they will fix the problem but they don't like to advertise what they found, as they are responsible for abnormal voltages and are liable for damages done to equipment.

Let us know how you make out.

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Originally Posted by tkrussell

Do you mean wire your panel with 4 wire feed instead of three wire? No, since the main is in your panel, that is the point the neutral, equipment ground, and grounding electrode conductor all connect together..

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No, in the pic I just meant to put neutral on one side(white lines) an grounds(green lines) on another.

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A whole house surge protector at the panel, and individual surge protection and UPS units at each PC or outlet for multiple PC equipment will protect your computers.
..

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Have individual surge protection, will be looking into whole house protection.

ALZ1

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Let us know how you make out.

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Ele engineer wants to bring someone out that he works with to look at MY home wiring.

And then to set another recorder. While I note events.

What should I have him look at on their side?

ALZ1

Sorry If I missed something, What connections are at your meter, In and Out? And no ground there? Underground Service? is panel back to back with meter?

Explain that the neighbors are having similar problems with flickering and brightening of lamps, not just your home.

Also that you measure current on your neutral with your Main off. This has got to indicate something is amiss on their side to them.

Realize, utilities never want to admit that they may be the cause of problems.

On their side, connections at your home both ends of the aerial cable, inside the meter, connects on both sides of their transformer.

Since the neighbors are affected, is there one transformer that feeds you and the neighbors? Or other transformers? This will tell them where to look on the grid (High Voltage Lines) that feeds the transformers.

Recording at your panel will show the sags and swells of the incoming voltage. Be sure they connect the recorder at the main, hopefully on the line side of the main breaker.

Will you have your electrician there also?

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Originally Posted by Stratmando

Sorry If I missed something, What connections are at your meter, In and Out?, And no ground there?. Underground Service?, is panel back to back with meter?.

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Meter out to pole then into house are the 2 connections for meter plus neutral in the middle lug no ground wire connection in the meter. It is a milbank I'll try to find the model on it...
Panel is back to back with and joined with conduit connections to panel
Arial service.
Thanks
ALZ1

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Originally Posted by tkrussell

Explain that the neighbors are having similar problems with flickering and brightening of lamps, not just your home.

Also that you measure current on your neutral with your Main off. This has got to indicate something is amiss on their side to them.

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you they chose daytime morning for a reason I suppose it is less at that time. No one is home.

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Realize, utilities never want to admit that they may be the cause of problems.

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TOTALLY realize that have read stories. Seeing it first hand.

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Since the neighbors are affected, is there one transformer that feeds you and the neighbors? Or other transformers? This will tell them where to look on the grid (High Voltage Lines) that feeds the transformers.

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there was at first. 11 off use(him included) then they split use up. The other is on another transformer next block over.

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Recording at your panel will show the sags and swells of the incoming voltage. Be sure they connect the recorder at the main, hopefully on the line side of the main breaker.

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EDIT#### I think it is one that connects to the meter base.

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Will you have your electrician there also?

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EDIT#####no they just called this am and want to come out in a few hrs. I am not real sure I feel comfortable with that, but don't want them to think I am hiding anything.

ALZ1

With the neutral bonded with screw in panel, the utility's grounding sounds weak, and using your ground(+ neutral).
I think I would move ground to Meter Can, drive ground rod. Get separate ground bar in main panel, remove green screw. That will not fix your problem. But would direct current
To earth ground. Reducing the dried wood effect? Good luck, thanks for hanging in there.

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Originally Posted by Stratmando

With the neutral bonded with screw in panel, the utility's grounding sounds weak, and using your ground(+ neutral).
I think I would move ground to Meter Can, drive ground rod. get seperate ground bar in main panel, remove green screw. That will not fix your problem. but would direct current
to earth ground. Reducing the dried wood effect? Good luck, thanks for hanging in there.

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Just seems weird that when my loads are very closly balanced one woud expect to see a reduction on the neutral. Mine with L16.5amps, L2 7.4amps, N 4.0 amps (G1.5-2.2 jumping around)

When everything working correctly, The neutral should draw the difference of the 2 Hots. If not, something still leaking to ground. Got to go to work, Curious of what they find.
Bad grounding from them sounding more likely. I think this problem is ground carring the current, not the neutral carrying the current. Did you say you have a ground wire coming off ground lug in Meter can to panel ground? Is Ground from meter to panel dependent on conduit integrity?

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Originally Posted by Stratmando

Did you say you have a ground wire coming off ground lug in Meter can to panel ground?

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No

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Is Ground from meter to panel dependent on conduit integrity?

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yes I would (eeek) Assume so. I hate to assume. Panel is bonded to ground, panel bonded to conduit meter can to weather head.

Does that make sense?

Old panel and meter socket had the same symptoms that is why we changed it out, to make sure it was not the a bad panel, meter socket, feeders, new ground wire, bonding to water pipe connections are all new.


ALZ1

[QUOTE=tkrussell]

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Also that you measure current on your neutral with your Main off. This has got to indicate something is amiss on their side to them.

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This is the most obsurd of all. They say this is normal, and usually doesn't cause any problem. And that my lights flickering had nothing to do with the neutral. "Usually" I said. And how do I get 120 with no nuetral involved...

I guess I must have really missed something, maybe it was in bill note, but when did they get my consent to use my home to return their current. (rant off now)
I gave him a run for his money, on most things, the other guy just stood back. Out rolled another truck, bucket to the first xformer installed. I have not went to see if they changed any connections or not yet.

Here is a pic of the last meter base recorder
http://thumb5.webshots.net/t/64/564/...5yviCaY_th.jpgclick to enlarge.


ALZ1

Nice job your doing.

The sags (low voltage events) seem too much too low.

Ask the utility to produce the tolerances they are bound to. For example, the utility here must provide voltage within -5% to +3%.

I see on the 19th, the red leg, V1,went down to about 114.5 volts.

The one thing that also needs to be analyzed is the duration of an event.

For example the recorder is showing several days, with many event occurring in one day. The recorder chart, if software driven, should be able to foucus in on one event, or sag, and determine the duration of time the voltage stayed at 114.5 volts.

What they did not do is measure the neutral.

Power companies only sell voltage. They will not, and do not care about current, therefore never measured the current on V1,V2 or the neutral.

Again, I typically find utilities difficult to convince, or better put, admit, they are the cause of a problem, as if they do admit, they know they are liable for any damage done by their poor power quality.

Flickering of lights, and brightening is due to a neutral problem, and current coming in on the neutral is not normal.

I know, he said and they said, and your stuck in the middle.

Since this utility seems to be not interested in helping you, or finding the problem, seems you will need to go a different path.

More analyzing is needed to pinpoint the cause of the problem, so as to have concrete evidence to bring to the utility and effect repairs.

Either/or get a good service contractor that has the test equipment and knowledge to analyze data, contact the PUC.

So they did come out and do something to the transformer?

I will bet you a dollar to a donut that if there was a problem they found and corrected, they would not tell you, all about liability.

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Nice job your doing.

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Thanks, I'm trying.

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The sags (low voltage events) seem too much too low.

Ask the utility to produce the tolerances they are bound to. For example, the utility here must provide voltage within -5% to +3%.

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5%

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I see on the 19th, the red leg, V1,went down to about 114.5 volts.

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I have measured it once at 109v on one leg before they put the meter recorder on. I had 2 volt meters hooked up. So I now the other times had to be around that also.

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So they did come out and do something to the transformer?

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3 poles involved: pole #1 main feeder pole, pole #2 had 11 of us on, pole #3 is behind my house.

First they put new xformer on pole#2 for all 11, no change

Then they split up the 11 of us, put in new xformer for the other 5 of us on pole #3. And ran a new drop to my house.
Three days I could use washer with only one very small flick out of 3 loads)

But they had alredy marked the pole #1 for replacement cause it was terrible.
That is when it came back not as severe, but I was spoiled by being able do laundry with out the lights flickering when washer went to each cycle. Washer/dryer is on own separate 20-amp circuit.

They said THAT should have taken care of anything back to the sub station.

I think they tried to put a bandage on it. Starting to wonder if it is multiple issues.

They asked to describe “how it flickers.” Slow going down fast up or visversa. That is going to be the toughest one to describe. I will almost have to know it is coming in order to process it in my head visually.

I think it is fast drop then comes up quick. hard to put into words.

Nieghbors just returned there 60 day old cordles phones because they were malfunctioning. Will have to see if these start acting up too. (same nieghbors with the diagnosed dead ADT.


Will be adding more pics of our oh so healthy feeder lines and poles from the 50's or something.

Thanks for your thoughts
ALZ1

Sure sounds like multiple issues. The transformer seemed a bit overloaded, which will affect power quality and reliability. And all those connections, anyone could have been loose or corroded.

Recorders are great, but depends on the type of event that is being sought. Most utilities use meters that are not built to record very short, or quick events. They are only interested in RMS levels.

A voltage sag of a few cycles, while not an issue to a utility, can be seen by the flicker of a light bulb. This type of even requires a very accurate recorder that can catch events of very short duration.

Since it appears some new work has been done to correct issues at the utility end, give its some time and note if there are still any flickering. Hopefully the problem has been found and corrected.