To all,

My current "Honey Do" is to upgrade from AL to CU cabling. I hit a wall when I pulled the main panel door. Attached is a picture of the installed panel. All labels are eaten or scratched/rotted away. I believe that Noah had installed a similar panel on his Arc before the rain storm.

Anyway, appended below is a photo of the panel. At the top you can see the POCO cable. I think I found Main breakers about midway down the stack. There are four breakers, two for each bus bar. Toward the back right you can see a part of a schematic for this panel.

If anyone can send me a link to this particular panel, I would appreciate it.

ITE is long gone, that panel is obsolete, and cutsheets no longer available.

You have the wiring diagram inside. What more do you need?

Since the POCO lines are at the Main Lugs at the top, I would expect to find a Main Breaker elsewhere, typically at the meter.

I would not expect the breakers in the center to be the Main for that panel, wires too small, assuming the large wires at the top are the Main input into this panel.

I did check outside, but did not find any disconnecting means outside. There is only the meter, no disconnect switch. The Phase conductors seem to connect directly to the Lugs at the top of the panel.

I did find two conductors connected to the Neutral cable that run under the panel board and bring "Neutral to the Neutral Bus Bars at thye bottom of the panelboard.

I have a partial wiring diagram. The right side of the sheet is gone. There is an UL listed tag on the frame, I'll try to get the number off that. Maybe UL will still have a schematic on the panel in their archives. I really don't want to take the panel apart if I can avoid it.

No Main? That's not good.

If for some reason those two breakers are the Main, turn them off, and note the results.

Donf, Those middle 2 breakers could be for a sub panel, wall AC or something, what is the size breaker on those 2, Turn off and see what you lose,
If the Buss is OK, you can still get good breakers that work on that panel(Crousse Hinds for example).
Seems OK, plus you have spaces.

How about water heater and stove for those breakers?

Can you read the amperage?

I seriously doubt that they are the main breakers.

Have you thought about the other two methods for dealing with Aluminim wire rather than replacement. One is a crimp method that has to be done prefessionally that adds a copper pigtail.

The other is a basically an insulated barrier screw terminal with goop to add the pigtail. Only installation tool required is a torque screwdriver/wrench. I did get a sample.

Yes, I have thought about the other options. The COPALUM connectors and the Antioxidant paste.

However, I may have to bite the bullet and change the panel. The two double pole breakers have 60 amp ratings. I have accounted for the Heat (60 amp) and AC (also 60 amp). The dryer is a 30 amp breaker. Right there I have reason to believe that my service is greater than 60 amps. There are at least 6, DPDT breakers in this panel.

One thing I just proved out is that the home originally had Radiant Ceiling Heat for the original 3 bedrooms, Dining Room, Living Room, Kitchen and Den.

Sometime in the past, the radiant heat was disconnected and the breakers were removed. An attic Heat/Cool unit was installed and subsequently it was disconnected and a new unit replaced the original unit. Also, a fourth bedroom was added by creating an "L" shaped appendage off the back, right rear of the home that contains the new master bath and new master bedroom.

If those two breakers are in fact the Main Breakers, then it is telling me that the home only has 60 amp service. Since the home was built anywhere from the early to mid 1970's then the possibility is that the home is starving for amperage and should go to at least 100 amp or just bite the bullet for 200 amp. The service is delivered via lateral connections and there is a rather large transformer or switch in the back yard of my neighbor's home.

My current plan is to call the POCO and see what the service drop amperage to our home is and determine if the Service Disconnect is external to the home and I just missed it.

Don:

Here is a method you may not know about: AlumiConn The sample product looks very good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by donf

My current plan is to call the POCO and see what the service drop amperage to our home is and determine if the Service Disconnect is external to the home and I just missed it.

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Once you have to dig, the cost isn't much for going from 100A to 200 A. The POCO may have to increase their capacity too.

You can't make a resonable dicision without knowing what you have and the cost.

I THINK, not sure, you could back feed say a 200 A panel with a 100 A breaker providing the breaker is retained with clips. You could check into this option as well. Changing the main here is also a possibility.

If the disconnect/breaker is outside (nice way to do something) then it determines your service and the inside panel can be 200 A regardless.

It might make sense to just upgrade to 200 A and forget about it, but it looks like the panel has to go.

Really, the main advantage of the 200 A panel is the number of spaces. Then you may be able to do the feeder underground at a later date.

The underground feeder could be in conduit too, thus you could check on that too. You can always do a load calc to see what panel you need, right?



Torque is 10-15 inch lbs for #10/#12 Aluminum.

Okay, I now have a fairly good idea about the panel. I was able to piece together the scraps of the schematic. According to the legend on the panel tag it is a 150 Panel board. The Service Feed Conductors are 2/0 AL.

According to the info on the tag "EQ-P" breakers can be used in all positions. "EQ-T" breakers can only be used in positions 7 through 18 and positions 22 through 30. These breakers are DPST breakers.

Lug "A" feeds breakers 1-2-3-4- and the left side "LTG" Main Breaker tandem arrangement. These are 60 Amp breakers that in turn feed breakers 5 through 18.

The "B" lugs feeds 3 unnumbered breakers including another set of 60 Amp tandem breaker set. These LTG Main Breakers feed breakers 19 through 30.

Neutral connects to two Neutral Blocks at the bottom of the of the panel. EGC connects to a third block and there is a bonding screw.

So, it appears to me, that this is a MLO panel (haven't found the cut-off yet) that is split into 3 sections.

So, exactly what are the Main Breakers?

Once it or they are identified, LABEL THEM.

A split bus panel? Why?

What is the purpose of the #2/0 conductors at the top, that I would assume are the input?

TK,

1) This panel board is split into three sections.

2) Split bus, because that's what they used? I have no idea, I just purchased this place in July of 2009.

3) The 2/0 cables are delivering 120/240 @120 amps (80% of the listed load of 150 amps) to the panelboard home. Verified with the POCO this morning.

Section 1 is connects the MLO lugs to the "A" and "B" bus bars.

Sections 2 and 3 are fed from the "LTG Main Breakers" at the bottom of the first section. (circled in Red on the photo)

The left "LTG" Main Breaker tandem feeds section two. The right "LTG" Main Breaker feeds the third section of the panelboard.

Courtsey of Simens Corp. here is the catalog and schematic of the panelboard.

Drawing makes a lot of sense now, and is as you describe(2 double breakers feeding the middle and bottom section).
That's a Strange one, sure makes you use extra breakers.
Do the wires on the 2 Breakers connect to lugs at the bottom of the panel, or do they exit the Panel, can't tell?

Well done on the datasheet, I tried a bit, but had no luck.

What a wacky panel.

I just don't see those breakers feeding the sub-sections of the panel, must be because of the photo.

Well, so are you planning on changing this panel out to something more conventional?

I cannot understand the reasoning behind a 3 section split bus panel.

I am sure there was some reason.

My thought on the design of the panel is that it is really targeted as a subpanel MLO.

Section 1 is for six or less breakers. Sections 2 & 3 are add on sections, if needed.

Anyway, that's my best guess.

I'm seriously thinking of going to a 200 amp panel and using 150 Amp Main Breakers.

If the cost is not too bad, I may go to a 200 amp feed, but it's a service lateral.

As of this moment, I would like to go to a 120/240 - 200 Amp panel.

Use a full load of 150 amps to keep from paying for the upgrade to 200 amps.

I looked at both Lowe's and Home Depot Electrical Distribution Centers and I am very underwhelmed.

Since I'm looking for quality first, then safety as inexpensive as I can get it and Home-line does not look like the best made I've see, I'm open to suggestions.

How about, Siemens, Square D or any other quality mfrs.

Cost is an issue but not a deal breaker.

Don,
For what it's worth, I looked at both Siemens and Square D when I did a total re-wire on my 85-year-old place a couple of years ago. I forget the price differential, but Square D was the more expensive. In my case, I was upgrading from 100 amp to 200 amp, plus adding a 100 amp sub panel in the attic (to make the total re-wire more workable). I've been happy with Siemens.
Bill

Your overwhelmed? Electricians need to know every product you see there, plus what else they don't sell. That's why our eyes are glazed over, if not by mind altering substances.


My opinion is they, Sq D, GE, Siemens, Murray (Murray is made by Siemens) are all of the same quality.

I would have to say that Square D QO line is a c-hair above the rest due to their unique plug on method. My opinion and experience.

You can, have no choice due to that lateral, get a 40 circuit 200 amp main lug only panel and a 150 amp main breaker kit. Anything 150 amp rated is a bit more costly, due to being so unpopular, at least in this area.

A technicality, but sometimes works, and only to be used by qualified electricians, service entrances conductors only need to be sized to handle the calculated service rating load, and can be smaller than the service disconnecting means. Need an accurate load calc done to size and document to use a smaller wire.

Have the utility check the wire size and compare to their requirements. Oft times they use reduced sizes for shorter runs. Longshot, but worth asking.

One way ot the other you may be able to get a 200 amp service.

Any chance on getting a photo of the interior with all breakers unplugged?

Longshot, but worth asking. LOL.


Of course, I really need to remind you, that since there is no MAIN, all bus will BE LIVE.

Working on live panels require special protective gear to prevent injury.

By he way, you all may be interested, do all of the electricians here realize that the proper PPE used while working on live gear will many times only LESSEN THE INJURY!

So, working on live gear has a good chance of injury, just not as bad if unprotected. Instead of third degree burns, you may just get light one degree burns.

The concussion blast will still be the same. If powerful enough, you can have a seat on your a$$.

Perhaps this is not a good idea. I can wait until the panel gets removed.


I will close by saying, every time you think you seen it all in this trade, wait for tomorrow.

I think I'm going to name this panel "Swiss Cheese" because it has lots of discontinuities.

Don.

Do you know anything about the bonding? Ground rods and utility grounds? What do you have to do there?

Where is your new main going to go? In the new panel or outside? Does the POCO or county have a requirement that disconnects have to be outside because of fire issues or any other reason?

TK,

I would not plan on swapping out the panel with the conductors live. There has to be a Service Disconnect somewhere. With all the junk Verizon hung on the wall adjacent to the meter, I just did not see it.

If I have to, I'll get the POCO to show me the disconnect switch.

TK, - My thinking on the use of the 200 amp panel is to have the new panel in place in case we ever decide to go to 200 amp service.

Right now, If I go with a full rated service amperage of 150 amps, I do not have to change the service entry conductors. By the way, all three conductors are 2/0 AL. Nor will I have to change the ground rod. I believe that the panel is grounded to the cold water pipe that feeds the hot water heater about 15 feet from the panel.

I got to do some more discovery work and get the permit before I actually start the work.

No Don, I was not suggesting that you change out the panel live, I had asked if you can unplug the breakers and take a photo of the split busbar.

Odd that you cannot see, or know, where the main disconnect is.

Donf, Can you tell us where the wires from those 2 breakers go?
1) Lugs on the bottom of the Panel, or
2)Exit the panel in conduit?

Thanks

Strat,

The wires from the Left tandem breakers feed the bottom (3) segment of the panel board.

The breakers on the Right feed the center (2) segment.

Here is the schematic:

The schematic is great, BUT, But where do the connect to, Do they leave the Panel in Conduits, or do they hook onto lugs at the bottom of the panel.
The schematic does not show where the wire from the 2 breakers go.
Diagram does NOT show and photo does not show either.

Strat,

Service lines enter and connect at the top of the panel board.

The Phase Bus Bars are physically split between section 1 and 2; and 2 and 3.

The two 240 VAC/60 Amp Breakers connect to bottom of Section 1.

The conductors from the left 60 amp breaker feed section 2. The conductors from the right breaker feed section 3.

Neither set of conductors leave the panel.

While I was baby sitting, I put together a colorized sketch to see if that helps.

See, the thing is Don, what I and Strat just don't see is the wires coming off those "Main Breakers" connecting to lugs for the lower sections of the panel, we see the wires heading to the bottom of the panel, as if they were leaving the panel.

We can see where the blue wires come off the 2 pole breaker and where the green wires come off a 2 pole breaker, we Cannot see where thy tie in, the schematic shows tied directly to the Buss, but the wires go to the bottom to some where? Are their 4 lugs that the wire off the 2 breakers go to.

I'm sorry, the wires come down their respective sides and loop up and under the Bus Plates to connect to their designated sections.

They do not exit the cabinet.

I understand they don't leave the panel.
They are welded? To the Buss? Or Lugs?

Okay,

Here are some enlarged segments of the Service Entry, Breakers and Sections 2 & 3 feeder wires.

Strat,

Given that the family Easter Celebration is at our home this weekend, I flat out do not have the courage to tell my Lady that I want to shut the power down so that I can get a look at the physical connection points.

The Lady is already ticked that I'm taking off from helping her clean and cook to umpire HS Girls Fastpitch Softball Games.

Donf, I see the Blue and Green Wiring, They come from the two center breakers, can you fininsh painting them so we can see where they attach, Looks like they disappear in the wires at the bottom, You probably can see very clear is why you wonder why we are asking. If you were to continue painting blue and green where would you end up(4 lugs? or 4 wires coming from the bottom of the BUSS)? Or How?
I wish I could word this Better.
How are they connected to the bottom of the Buss?

Don't worry about it, originallally it was supposed to be a quick question, not that important. Its just wires from a breaker don't usually go into some unknown void? Don't worry about it? Take Care

Strat,

I'm not worried, I am fearing spousal retribution if I push the gal any more. After all, Bon is Scottish/Italian, comes from NYC vicinity and the Lady was a Marine.

I'm just NYC Irish and I chose the Navy. I don't normally push issues, it's not like I'm going to win many and come out on top.

Actually, I am really intrigued by this panel mainly because I've never see a design like this one.

Another piece of info. Under the Neutral lug, there are two additional wires that service the Neutral Connection points one for each additional section. These wires also run under the panel segments. All of the segment plates are mounted to standoffs which hold the plates about a 1/2" off the back of the cabinet surface.

Its fairly dry today, so I'm heading out to the backyard to see if I can get a pic of the service disconnect. I suspect that it is inside the Meter cabinet.

So, you can't see where they attach too? I not curious about the disconnect or the neutral, I am curious how They attach.
Can you help me understand this.
Can some else rephrase my question for me, I am not doing a good job.

Strat, I am having the same problem, so just fly up from the Keys and drop in and check it out.

Hey guys, I'm in favor of that!

I do have more information. Simens sent me the entire PDF of the catalog description. And I took some better pics this morning.

According to page 2 of the appended PDF, there is an area for pass through lugs.

I also realized the import of this split bus design.

We have been having lights dim and brighten exactly like a loose Neutral. However, the Neutral lug is tight. Obviously, this was not a new problem because you can see that the main lugs are chewed up from putting torque on them to tighten them up.

But those lugs only affect the top section of breakers.

The Neutral connection is wire fed to the other two sections. Either one of those can be loose. "Dirty words!"

On the plus side, it also means that I can down the breakers that feed the other sections without killing the entire house and get the breakers out and tighten the Neutrals and inspect the Pass through lugs.

Don:

Not that the pic is bad, but the next time you have to take a pic of something close up with a flash diffuse the flash through a piece of paper.

Looks like this panel is a new experience for all.

BTW: Happy Easter to all.

First, there is no single service disconnect for this panelboard. According to the POCO, because section 1 qualifies as 6 or less switches no single disconnect is required. Makes perfect sense to me, at least now.

Well my simplistic plan just took a very serious kick in the butt.

I was talking with the POCO designer for my area. They will not upgrade from a 120 A feed to a 150 Amp feed. They will only go to 200 Amp. Sounds do-able to me.

There is no needed change to the line side transformer feeders since they are already 4/0 AL. POCO will require a meter base change because the existing base is over 10 years old. The base and a blue book are supplied at no charge.

However, if POCO disconnects so the work can be accomplished, then they cannot re-connect until they have the Permit and Final Inspection in hand.

The work-around is to pull the permit. Submit a request for a POCO work order. Pull the meter and then work on the base replacement with the line side hot.

Now I have never pulled a meter or worked on the line side of the wall.

What would have to happen is to pull the meter, change the service entry cable to 4/0 AL (less than 2') connect to the load side of the meter base and then to the new panel and then re-install the meter and cover.

TK - What PPE equipment would I need? If I decide to give this a whack. That decision is pending.

Also, what do I use to temporarily route power to the home while the work is being done.