:confused: I need to run wiring from my house to my fish pond. I currently have an outlet that is wired on its own circuit from the previous owner's hot tub. The wire is 12/2 and feeds the outlet and an exhaust fan. The cable runs up the wall on the outside of the house and then feeds into the wall for the outlet and fan. I want to tap into this circuit. I thought I had it figured out, but it was a late night when I was diagramming, and now, several weeks later, what I had figured out isn't making sense! Too many pigtails, connectors, etc... Here's what I want to do:

I want to tap into the existing circuit. Instead of one outlet in the house, I want to change it to a an outlet and two single pole switches. The switches would run to the outlets by the pond. There I want to have 2 GFCI outlets, each one controlled from a switch inside. Here's a rough sketch:
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8457/outletmf6.png
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8...874ab46faa.jpg

Any help would be appreciated!

..

Excellent info and diagram from Hk as usual, You could have a single GFI inside Before Switches(Next to) To protect both with 1 GFI, instead of 2 outside.

I looked at the diagram and it looks OK. I am assuming there is a jumper bar to both switches for a single black (hot wire) connection. The common looked consistent and the hot makes the switch loop. Perhaps, you aren't wired exactly like the diagram ? Are you sure the black wire coming into the outlet is hot all the time ? It might be part of a loop and switched off.

HK, your diagram is quite easy to understand. However, I think maybe I didn't make myself clear. The first diagram is the currently existing outlet. The second diagram of switches and outlets is what I want to do, which incorporates the outlet and switches together, thus having any wires from diagram one to diagram two doesn't make sense. Basically, the first drawing is just to show what I already have--that outlet is hopefully going to be incorporated into the switch/outlet group shown in the second drawing, but it needs to always be hot and still feed up to the exhaust fan as well. Which I guess really means, just ignore the first drawing altogether! :)

Also, is the red wire a second hot wire? Is it just a jumper?

Stratmando: The outlet inside is just regular household outlet, which is why I don't have it as a GFI. The two outside outlets, however, besides just being outside, will also be used for pond connections, which is why I have them GFI.

Westnlas: Since the wiring HK so kindly and clearly diagrammed includes an extra outlet, it's hard to respond exactly. However, the wiring to the existing outlet is currently hot all the time, and I want it to stay that way. It's the outside outlets I want to switch. It just seemed like a good idea so that I wouldn't actually have to go outside every time I wanted to shut off a pump or lights. Not so important now, but in the winter, when I sometimes have to temporarily shut down something, or turn on my de-icer, etc, it would be nice to know I can stay toasty warm and just flip a switch!

Shea, You can have in the Second box, the GFI fed from first box and will be constant hot, then the Load side of GFI Neutral go to pump and light Neutral.
Hot from the load side goes to stacked switch with tab intact on hotside, the red and black from switches goes to pump and light.

Is this it?

Or this

The inside Receptacle Can Be GFI, Instead of 2 outside GFI's, Better protected inside.
In all the boxes I would connect all Neutrals together and have pigtail connect to each receptacle. Safer, and Code.

Well I guess you can configure it in many ways that will work OK. The only potential problem I can see is the possibility of overloading the existing circuit by adding the additional outlets and fixtures. But you will know soon enough if the breaker keeps tripping. Good luck and it sounds like a good project.

Sorry for the delay in responding. It's Father's Day, so I was low woman on the totem pole! Here's a revised diagram of what I'm trying to do. Would it be easier to show you all a diagram of how I think it should look, and have you see if it's right? I'm about to the point where I think I should forget the switches altogether, and just keep the existing outlet and wire the pond outlets always hot. The only real purpose to the switches is laziness on my part come winter!

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/4734/outlet2gk7.jpg

Shea, in HK's drawing, the red and black are from the 2 switches and go to the 2 outside GFI recepticles.
You don't have to put a single GFI in house as that is how it always was? The supply house will appreciate the sale of an extra GFI, plus you have the extra money?

I have an extra GFI, that's no issue.

Well Just use HK's Diagram and install the 2 GFI's in the double box outside. Intermatic makes a Weather resistant clear "Bubble" cover that allows cover to be closed with cord plugged in.

HK's diagrams are nice and easy to follow, but I think there is still a problem. The latest diagram shows two 3-way switches, but I actually have a combination, two single-pole switch. So, I've attempted to do a diagram that shows what I originally figured out a few weeks ago in the wee hours of the morning. Pretend that the gray wire is actually white!

So, I have the incoming power to the outlet, which I have split, pigtailed, and connected to the fan as well (it has it's own on/off switch built in).

Next, I have connected the hot wire from the bottom screw of the outlet to the top of the switch. That should provide power to the switch itself

From there I have a jumper going to the top hot screw of one of the outlets, with a jumper to the bottom hot screw. That is to switch the outlet.

Then from the bottom hot screw of the switch, I have a wire running to the second outlet, with a jumper from it's top to bottom hot screws. That's to switch the second outlet. (Only on the diagram, it looks like I created a sort of pigtail/jumper. I wasn't paying attention. It should look just like the other outlet)

Repeat everything for the white side.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2396/outlet3sq7.jpg


When I'm looking at it now, weeks later, I keep thinking I can't have a jumper on the same outlet, it needs to go from one to another. So I think that's where I'm messing it up. But every time I look at doing a jumper between outlets instead, it seems like that will keep the switches from working properly!

AAUUGGGHHH! If only I could find my old papers...

If they are both on same circuit you only need one neutral from switches to GFI's.
I see the Neutrals are going to the switch, they don't, only to recepticles neutral.
You need a hot to switches(side with jumping tab).
HK's first drawing looks like what you want. What seems strange about his drawing? Just have GFI's instead of recepticles and you're set.
Don't know where 3 ways came into this.

O.k. HK's first diagram shows an extra outlet, and the last one shows 3-way switches. Looking at those and the ones in-between, here's my latest schematic:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3194/outlet4br1.jpg

Will this work? Now, keeping in mind that the pond is about 70 feet away from the outlet, so I'll be burying the cable, does this mean I have to run a 70 foot jumper (red wire)along with the regular 12/2 that I'm using?

Also, the GFIs don't have a tab like regular outlets to break off for being able to switch one part without the other. However, since I'm using a switch for each outlet set, as opposed to trying to have one set with one switched and one hot, I'm guessing that the tab is a moot point anyway.

You will need to run three wires to the pond. A common and one for each of the two switch loops. Otherwise, everything will be on a single switch. I am assuming that you will add a ground at the pond and not back to the house outlet ? You can run a single 12/3 w ground that would work.

Looks like you've got it. I would pigtail neutrals and not depend on device to carry on.
A GFI in the house could allow a duplex receptacle with hot tab removed, each could be GFI protected, Since you have the extra GFI and have the Correct drawing now I would do
It that way.
We know the Grounds are understood but eliminated for clarity. Take Care

OK, we'll do it your way.

Notes.
The type of switch you apparently want to use, two switches on a single strap is not a 3-way switch. You said you wanted to be able to turn the outlets on and off from both inside and a outside. To do that you must use two 3-way switches.
It’s been a long time since I looked at that type of switch but I believe there is only one screw on the input side of the switch. You supply power to the switch and it comes out the top of other side is the top switch is on. Power comes out the bottom of the other side if the bottom switch is on.

You do not interrupt (switch) the neutral (white wire), you always switch the hot side.

Take a look at the screws on the side of an outlet. Notice that a small metal strap connects them. When you connect a wire to one screw you are automatically connected to the other. You do not have to connect a wire to each screw. You can however, use the second screw to attach a wire to go to the next outlet. That way you do not have to make pig tails.

Note that the neutral wire coming from the power source is connected to the neutral going to the fan and pig tailed to the top screw of the first outlet. The bottom screw of the first outlet is connected to the bottom screw of the second outlet; the top screw of the second outlet is connected to the top screw of the third outlet. In the drawing there does not appear to be a continuous path here, but there is; the connection between the screws. Is through the metal strap on the side of the outlet. The same thing applies to the hot side. When you make a connection to either screw both the top and bottom halves of the outlets are connected.

A lot change while I was drawing and typing but you WILL run a ground back the source.

Sorry, HK. If I mentioned switching at both the house and pond, I didn't mean to do so! I'm having a hard enough time with the darn single-pole switches, a 3-way would kill me! Your diagrams have been great for helping me visualize my way through this. Usually I can just see things in my head, but for some reason (probably a good thing!) with electrical I just have to see it drawn out. Once I do it, it seems easy, but then I don't do it again for several years, and everything I learned has disappeared in the minutae of everyday life!

I'm such a dweeb sometimes. It never occurred to me to just get a 12/3 instead of a 12/2 to take care of that extra (red) wire. That's what I had to do several years ago, too, but forgot until now.

As for grounding, I did know I needed to do that, and just left it off. But now I'm scared I'll mess that up, too! Can I pigtail the ground from the incoming to two jumpers that then connect to the outlet and the switch grounding screws, then do the same from the 12/3 at the pond outlets? Or do I need to pigtail the incoming and each switch/outlet ground screw to a single jumper that grounds to a separate ground screw in the gang box?

You can connect grounds either way, which ever is easiest just as long as they are all connected. You can make a pigtail for each device or you can make a long one and go to the switch and then to the outlet (or outlet then to the switch). Just as long as they are all connected togeather.

O.k. everyone. I'm going to try this in the next day or two. If you haven't seen a response from me by Sunday or Monday, you can figure I've electrocuted myself or burned down my house. Otherwise, when I have successfully finished, I'll be back to let you know it worked!

Well, I've been half successful. I can get the inside outlet and fan to work, but not the outside outlets. So, the only thing I can think of is that maybe I have my red and black wires switched. Based on HK's last diagram, is the bottom wire black or red? I have it as red, but maybe that's backwards?

Also, on one diagram, the red on the bottom of one outlet, and on the other outlet, black is on top and white is on bottom. Another diagram shows them all on bottom (red and black on opposite hots, white on neutral across from the black). Does this make a difference?

Finally, should the metal tab on the switch be left intact or removed?

sheahasu, Hk drawing is meant to show the white to be common to both top and bottom, actually all whites can be tied together and connected to the top or the bottom screw, they are both connected by a tab. The receptacle with the red wire is switched by the switch that has the red wire, and the receptacle with the black wire is switched by the switch with the black wire.
All Hk lacked to show, which he likely thought was understood, was the common connection of the neutral on top and bottom half of the receptacle by the tab.

O.k. I did understand that from what he'd posted earlier, but since it isn't working, I thought maybe I had something wrong. I can't seem to figure it out. Maybe I have a loose connection somewhere... Also, should the tab on the switch be left intact, or since it's switching two different circuits, should it be broken off?

Since the common goes to every fixture (outlet) at the light colored or shiny terminal. The red wire and the black wire each go to a different outside outlet at the hot terminal (brass colored). Each of these wires comes from a different switch, so there is one switch loop for each outlet. Each switch must have a hot wire coming into it. A jumper wire can be used to get hot wires to each switch. The wire returning from the outside outlet completes each switching loop.

If you are near Las Vegas, I could come over and wire it in for you.

The 3 wires going to the outlets are: white (common) red (hot to one fixture) and black (hot to the other fixture). It would seem that we are complicating the issue. If the red and black wires were connected to the black (hot) wire at the inside box, both new boxes would be hot. The switches just allow you to break the circuit (switch loop). So they are installed in that line.

Since the common goes to every fixture (outlet) at the light colored or shiny terminal. The red wire and the black wire each go to a different outside outlet at the hot terminal (brass colored). Each of these wires comes from a different switch, so there is one switch loop for each outlet. Each switch must have a hot wire coming into it. A jumper wire can be used to get hot wires to each switch. The wire returning from the outside outlet completes each switching loop.

If you are near Las Vegas, I could come over and wire it in for you.

The 3 wires going to the outlets are: white (common) red (hot to one fixture) and black (hot to the other fixture). It would seem that we are complicating the issue. If the red and black wires were connected to the black (hot) wire at the inside box, both new boxes would be hot. The switches just allow you to break the circuit (switch loop). So they are installed in that line. Hook the ground line to the outlets only. (Just like the common, except on the ground terminals)Attachment 9652

West, I wish I were in 'Vegas to get your help. My husband and 11 yr. old daughter just got back. It's a big thing around here to "graduate" from 5th grade and enter middle school. For our other two, when they each graduated, I took them and a friend to Canada. However, with the price of gas, and the fact that my husband had a couple of free airline tickets, it was actually cheaper to go to 'Vegas. Our daughter has wanted to go since she was about 4. But I digress...

In preparing this post, I discovered that I did have one jumper wrong. I now have power to one of the switched outlets. The second (red) is still a problem. I thought maybe since the outlets are GFI it might make a difference if I was wiring to the load or the line , but I tried both ways with no luck.

I see that you said not to ground the switch, but earlier HK said to ground everything together. What I will try to show in the diagram here is that I ran a wire from each ground on the switch/outlet and pigtailed them altogether with the incoming and outgoing ground. At the outlet receptacle I ran a wirre from each outlet ground and pigtailed them to the incoming ground wire.

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/1307/outlet5dj8.png
http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/1...30541f1861.jpg


What am I missing?

I am not an electrician, but I see no reason to ground the switch. Of course, if you do, it certainly would be better. The only thing the switch does is to break the circuit at one feed.

That's what I was trying to clarify. Each outlet has a common, a hot wire, and a ground.

The switch to the outlet breaks the hot wire. If you have a hot wire to each switch, then current travels from the switch to the outlet. The common wire bypasses the switch and runs straight into the outlet. So each of the switches to the outlets need a hot coming into it. Then the hot goes out of the switch to the outlet. If you use a duplex type set of switches (2 in the box). The incoming hot can be ran to both with a jumper wire. Each switch then sends current to each outlet with 1 wire. In your case, the red wire goes from one switch to an outlet and the black wire goes from the other switch to the other outlet. Splice all the white wires together at the box the switches are in. Attach the white wire to the first outlet. Now you need a white jumper wire from one outlet to the other one. I think that is where the problem is.

Your 3 wire cable from the switches to your outlets has a black, white, red and green (or bare wire) Since you are using the black and red wires to provide hot to each outlet, you have only 1 white (common wire) It goes to the first outlet. Now you need a white wire from one outlet to the other one.

I sure hope this helps explain my sketch. It's really easy if you can visualize the circuit.

Anyway, living here in Las Vegas, we don't gamble every day, go to the shows every week, etc. Our life style is rather plain. Everything here is geared to the tourist and it's very expensive for locals. We don't have a state income tax, but we sacrifice a lot of services that are provided in other states. Our schools really suck. I don't think it's so much the schools as the family attitudes toward education. There are many low paying jobs in the hotel industry that is 60% of the state tax base. Low income families generally are not education oriented and many kids don't learn English. Sorry, getting older, one tends to run on.

Good luck with your project, please keep me posted.

West, I do have the commons attached as described, as well as the hot jumper and both hots to the outlets. I'll have to do some messing around and see if I can figure it out. According to the diagrams everyone has generously provided, I'm hooked up right, but I still can't get one outlet to work. Of course, it just occurred to me that maybe the outlet itself is defective... I'll have to try switching it out tomorrow and see if using a different one makes a difference.

I lived and taught in Bullhead City for 1 year back in 1985. I taught high school special ed, so since it was my first teaching job, some of my students were only a year or two younger than me. Every Monday all I'd hear about was how they'd all gotten blotto over the weekend, yet I couldn't step foot in a casino without being carded. I even got carded in 'Vegas buying an Ethel M rum ball! Students with parents who worked in Laughlin were frequently exhausted following a payday weekend because their parents were out gambling and drinking away their paychecks while my students were home babysitting younger siblings. One of my students was determined to become rich by going to work as a drug dealer with his uncle. Of course, that was before his stint in drug rehab, and his death one week after getting out because he got drunk at a party in Needles and got hit by a car walking back to Bull Head. So I understand where you're coming from. I remember having one student move to 'Vegas and coming back to visit and telling us that the school she went to was so overcrowded that they had one set of students that went to school from 7-2 and then another from 3-10 or something like that. Crazy! As for parent attitude in education, as an educator I can tell you that is pretty much an issue across the country.

O.k. That would be a whole other forum. Nothing like gettinga little off topic! Anyway, I'll take a look at my wiring again in the morning if it isn't storming and check to see if maybe it is a bad outlet. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it's that easy of a fix!

Heard you about the education. My daughter teaches elementary special ed in Cal. As you siad another topic.

I believe since you have the wiring by our diagrams that are all the same, the plug might be defective as you mentioned. Often it's the simplest most overlooked thing that goes wrong.

Sorry I missed you in Bullhead. I did a lot of motel and hotel framing in Holiday Shores, Havasau and Bullhead City. Learned to hate gnats the hard way. And to never take an outboard through Topock late at night.

The switch could be bad as well. Verify when both switches are turned on, power leaves the 2 screws from the switch.

Well, it doesn't seem to be the switch or the outlet. I tried switching the red and black wires and the same switch worked whether I had the red or the black attached. Then I tried a different outlet and a different switch. Same thing. Somehow the wiring to the second outlet isn't right. I did at least get the outlet to trip its reset button, so I know it's getting power initially. As before, I also tried switching the red wire from the line to the load, with no success. Maybe it's time to call an electrician... yuck!

What is your current status?

Well, I have the inside outlet working fine, and one of the switches actually switches an outside outlet. But the other one still doesn't work. I've tried switching out the switch and the outlet, and just the wiring itself. I've even tried it with a switch with and without the tab intact. The switch and outlet seem to be fine, and the wire itself is o.k. since it works when I exchange it for the other hot. However, the second outlet still won't work. Here's the schematic I used, which is from before, but now with ground wires added in.

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8730/outlet6nl2.png
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8...efe489543c.jpg

Help me understand this mish mosh, please.

First, do you have an independent power source that is feeding power into your house from the pump?

If you do not, then you current flow design is backwards. Current is brought to loads via Branch Circuits. The Branch Circuits are protected from getting too much current by circuit breakers.

So, starting from there, please tell me the amperage rating for the Circuit Breaker that is feeding this gaggle of switches, outlets and pond pump.

Your diagram makes absolutely no sense at all. First of all, switches only carry power. They do not supply a Neutral Return.

If a switch is connected to both Black and White wires, then the wires are part of a switch loop and White should have been redesignated with either Black paint or Black tape to signify that it is a power carrying conductor.

Furthermore, when such an arrangement is made, the White can only carry power from the power source to the switch. You can only return to the load with a Black wire. That's an NEC CODE.

So, If you can track backwards to the circuit breaker, and from there work your way through the circuit and then sketch the circuit out, maybe we can get some where.

I have to have the Breaker's value. The amperage needed by the water pump. Also, how far is the pump from the main panel. Are the conductors that service the pump the same size through the circuit.

Move the black that connects the outlet to the switch fro the top screw to the bottom screw. See if the other GFI outlet works. Let me know

Don, if you go back through the original posts, you'll see an explanation of this "mish mosh". You'll also see that the pump is not connected through the circuit, except that it needs an outlet to plug into. It's designed to run off a regular household current, which it is currently doing through an extension cord running across my backyard. However, besides being unattractive and a tripping hazard, it's a pain to unplug, move, and plug back in every time we mow. Also in previous posts you will see that the circuit runs straight from the box to the existing outlet. It is not part of any other circuit as it was originally put in for a spa the previous owners used. I'm not sure which diagram makes absolutely no sense at all since there are about 5 of them that got us to this point so far. And since all but one outlet is currently working, I must be doing something right, because I don't think running it backwards would allow for anything to work. As for the whole black/white thing, the blacks are all duly identified, and as far as I can tell, there is no white feeding the switch, so there is no code violation there.

So rather than go through all the information again that I gave originally, and the others have been kind enough to respond to, I'll try HK's most recent suggestion after church in the morning and see if that will do it. Thanks, HK, for the suggestion. I had thought about that later today and planned to try it, but we've been out at picnics all day! I'll try it as soon as I can in the morning and let you know. I hope it works because I'm supposed to be doing some consulting work from home this summer and I haven't even started because my garden and this electrical issue keep pulling me away from the computer! If it doesn't work, I have to give up for at least a day and devote some time what I'm supposedly being paid to do! :) Of course, if it does work, then I'll be resisting the urge to finally get it all finished by burying the cable, then burying the pond cords, then the pump hose...