I have had my cocker spaniel for about five years now and she has always been great about holding her bowels and going outside other than the occasional urinating she did when got excited which she has grown out of. I have had my shih tzu for the past two years and she has been decently trained as well. Now all of a sudden they both go in the house constantly. Ill take them outside regularly and my cocker would urinate and poop a little and my shih tzu would just pee and run around for sometimes an hour and then come home and pee/poop inside. It's gotten out of hand. I wake up there's poop ten minutes later there's poop I'll take them out then there's poop go to work come home at midnight there's poop. I bathe them and hour later there's poop. I don't know why there's this sudden change but it's pissing me off I get so flustered and frustrated sometime I just want to hurt them. I just clean it up and go to my room. Btw they are crated all the time now. I don't trust them to wander around the house like they used to because the moment I let them get a little freedom there's pee on the carpet. I can't take it anymore and neither can my roommate. I'm just tired.

" ... I just want to hurt them. I just clean it up and go to my room. Btw they are crated all the time now."


Do everyone a favor - rehome the dogs and don't get any more dogs.

I'm sure you've taken both of them to a Vet and they are both in good health, no problems along those lines, right.

Again - do the dogs a favor. Your cruelty toward dogs have had for two years and five years is shocking.

You are taking out your unhappiness, your personal problems, on helpless animals - https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/relati...me-758922.html. I don't know if I'm more shocked or more sickened.

Rehome them.

Very likely they are being spiteful. Maybe because you don't get them the attention they want, maybe because you are crating them more, maybe because they know you are upset. Dogs sense things. It would be better to leave them outside more than crating them. At least they have more of a sense of freedom.

*leave them outside more often, weather permitting etc

Do you just open the door for them to go out and hope for the best, or do you actually monitor what they do and have a potty word?

I totally disagree with the "spiteful" comment. There is something else going on here. I agree with Judy that your plate is full right now and you really should consider rehoming your dogs. They deserve more attention, training, and care than they are getting. Shutting them up in crates is not a good idea.

And dogs sense anger, let alone rage, and upset.

Of course they are reacting. One of them has loved you for 5 years and is suddenly the target of your dislike.

Rehome them - living in a crate is no fun and corrects absolutely nothing. Of course, it probably does keep you from hurting them.

Sorry to woindergirl for using wrong term spiteful. Meant as spiteful as negative reaction to circumstances beyond dogs control.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Sorry to woindergirl for using wrong term spiteful. Meant as spiteful as negative reaction to circumstances beyond dogs control.

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I will accept that. And the owner not being in tune with a dog's bathroom needs (because the owner is so self-involved with personal problems) doesn't help the matter at all.

Dogs certainly don't think like people but I wonder if "people" would live in an area slightly larger than they are, unable to urinate and defacate when they need to, forced to stay in that cubicle with almost no human contact, always being shamed and threatened, realizing that people they love are upset and frustrated and thinking of "hurting them" how they would react - of course, you can always "bathroom" and live in it.

Also note OP gets home from work at Midnight Wonder how much time dogs have off lead, outside, even outside on lead - ?

Why have two dogs when you can't handle one?

Sad all the way around.

I see a lot of changes in your life, and dogs don't do well with change.

The first thing that has to be done is a complete vet check to make sure this sudden lack of potty training isn't a medical issue.

If you plan to keep the dogs, you have to put in the work to keep them. Putting them in a crate so you don't have to deal with their issues, is not the answer. You're harming your dogs.

They need to be retrained (after a clear vet check). If you can't, or won't, do that, they they are better off with someone else.

Yea I volunteer at this shelter so they get free regular check ups. Their shots are up to date and everything. I moved recently and my vet said it could be the move and I did change their food. I don't neglect them I let them out regularly we love in an apartment so I have to take them out and walk them we walk for at least an hour I get up at 6 am go for a run with them go home shower leave for work/school at about 8 come home at 3 sometimes earlier take them out they eat wait 30-45 minutes and take them out. I did do a test today I bought another crate and split them up to see which one is eliminating in the house. I found out it was the shih tzu not my cocker spaniel. Which is even more frustrating because the shih tzu is the one that refuses to go outside an poop but then comes home and goes in the house. Yes I crate them because we have carpet and I have a roommate I refuse to give her the full run of the house again if she goes in the house and thinks its OK. She does it the moment I turn my back. The crate is near the kitchen and living room so it's a high volume area in which they're never isolated. During the evenings when I take them out we play I'm the courtyard and everything. So no they are no mistreated. It's crazy when I state how frustrated I get me voicing my frustrations doesn't make me a cruel person there area many people out there judging me but have you ever felt frustrated before. I would never harm them I would surrender them before it ever gets to that point. I'm just showing how fed up I am with the bahavior.

Refuses to go when outside, waits until in the house and you turn your back. That is what I was saying about spite because my pit bull has been with my son and she is pulling the same thing. The other word would be defying his authority. How do your dogs get along? It could be a jealousy thing. Moving may have been the trigger but my guess is it is something deeper.

I don't believe it's spite. This is a dog, not a human being. Dogs don't do things out of spite.

My bet would be the change in location, and all the stress going on in your home at this point.

You're going to have to retrain, and for that you're going to have to be calm, and positive. When the dogs potty outside, lots of praise, a treat, let them know they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. If the go inside, a firm no, and then take them directly outside, use your potty word, and wait for them to potty outside.

Do not use the crate as punishment. The crate is supposed to be their den, their safe place. If it's used as punishment, it will be viewed as a place you go when you're bad, not a safe place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alty

I don't believe it's spite. This is a dog, not a human being. Dogs don't do things out of spite.

My bet would be the change in location, and all the stress going on in your home at this point.

You're going to have to retrain, and for that you're going to have to be calm, and positive. When the dogs potty outside, lots of praise, a treat, let them know they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. If the go inside, a firm no, and then take them directly outside, use your potty word, and wait for them to potty outside.

Do not use the crate as punishment. The crate is supposed to be their den, their safe place. If it's used as punishment, it will be viewed as a place you go when you're bad, not a safe place.

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Yea that makes sense. I did some research and found that sometimes they get stressed due to changes in location and diet. We moved to a different state from Chicago to where Missouri we loved here for a year and then moved again down the street. Before then I loved alone but then moved with a roommate I also changed their diet from beneful to blue ribbon because their fur started to get dull and dry and the new food has definitely helped their coats A lot. I was thinking maybe that had something to do with the change in their potty issues. I don't know. I did do some positive reinforcement today with them but the shih tzu still did not poop. She enjoyed running around and playing but made no effort to poop. Ten minutes later. She ran into the crate and pooped inside of it came out and played some more. So it can't be constipation. Even though I have to admit I was upset at her we went to this dog park for like two hours and she did nothing but pee but instead of yelling at her I just took her back outside and she just laid in the grass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flatsouffle

Yea that makes sense. I did some research and found that sometimes they get stressed due to changes in location and diet. We moved to a different state from Chicago to where Missouri we loved here for a year and then moved again down the street. Before then I loved alone but then moved with a roommate I also changed their diet from beneful to blue ribbon because their fur started to get dull and dry and the new food has definetly helped their coats ALOT. I was thinkin maybe that had something to do with the change in their potty issues. I dont know. I did do some positive reinforcement today with them but the shih tzu still did not poop. She enjoyed running around and playing but made no effort to poop. Ten minutes later. She ran into the crate and pooped inside of it came out and played some more. So it can't be constipation. Even though I have to admit I was upset at her we went to this dog park for like two hours and she did nothing but pee but instead of yelling at her I just took her back outside and she just laid in the grass.

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It's not going to be an instant fix. You're basically starting from scratch, potty 101. Treat them the way you treated them when you were first potty training them. They need to relearn.

I do have to ask, when did you switch the food, how long ago? Also, when you switched the food did you do it instantly, or slowly? When changing foods it's best to do it slowly, start by giving 1/4 new food 3/4 old food for 4 days. If there are no issues, do 1/2 new 1/2 old for 4 days. Still no issues then 3/5 new 1/4 old for 4 days, and then after that switch completely to the new food. Switching suddenly can cause issues. If you just recently switched their food, this may be what's causing the poo issues, but it doesn't explain the peeing in the house. That I would bet is due to all the sudden changes, especially moving.

Patience. I know it's frustrating, and I know it's maddening, especially when you're dealing with dogs that were potty trained before. But be patient, tons of praise when they do what they're supposed to do, go nuts with praise. When they potty in the house, or in their crate, a firm no, and let them know that this is not good behavior (your attitude will let them know you're not pleased with them).

Dogs live to please their owners, that's why praise works so well. Treats don't hurt either.

This may take a while, but if you keep at it, be consistent, they'll be potty trained again in no time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flatsouffle

She ran into the crate and pooped inside of it came out and played some more.

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I am a cat person, so don't take my words as total truth -- but I know from my cats how much of a difference food makes in how often, how much, and the "quality" of their poop. Also, cats (and dogs) hate change, and your pups have experienced a LOT of change..

I suspect your dog now thinks the crate is her pooping place. She "held it" until she was able to go where she is used to pooping. (She poops in her crate, right?)

I hope Alty comes back (or I will PM her) to tell you how to break the pup of this habit. ***ADDED YAY! Alty was typing while I was!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

. How do your dogs get along? it could be a jealousy thing. Moving may have been the trigger but my guess is it is something deeper.

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When I first got the shih tzu my cocker didn't like her too much she used to run away from her and growl at her but after a few days she for used to her I do feed them in separate areas because the shih tzu would try to hog all the food and the cocker would turn away and she started to lose weight so during feeding time they're separated. But usually they get along sometimes they fight over toys but nothing too serious I just think of it as sibling rivalry. Lol. They do get jealous Of each other from time to time so I make sure to pet them at the same time. But nothing too extreme

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flatsouffle

When I first got the shih tzu my cocker didn't like her too much she used to run away from her and growl at her but after a few days she for used to her I do feed them in separate areas because the shih tzu would try to hog all the food and the cocker would turn away and she started to lose weight so during feeding time theyre separated. But usually they get along sometimes they fight over toys but nothing too serious I just think of it as sibling rivalry. Lol. They do get jealous Of each other from time to time so I make sure to pet them at the same time. But nothing too extreme

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Question, and I'm not sure if you already posted this, so bear with me. Are your dogs spayed?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alty

Question, and I'm not sure if you already posted this, so bear with me. Are your dogs spayed?

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They are not. I planned to breed the cocker before I moved away for college but decided against it. I'm kind of afraid to. At the clinic I see a lot of pet owners come in complaining about how their dogs have changed after being spayed or neutered some dogs came in depressed or lethargic and I'm afraid that'll happen to them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flatsouffle

They are not. I planned to breed the cocker before I moved away for college but decided against it. I'm kind of afraid to. At the clinic I see a lot of pet owners come in complaining about how their dogs have changed after being spayed or neutered some dogs came in depressed or lethargic and I'm afraid that'll happen to them.

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Spaying an older dog can be hard on them, but the only changes in behavior will be positive ones. The people that complain of depression or lethargy, usually do so immediately after the surgery. It's a major surgery for a female dog, I won't lie and tell you that it's a simple procedure. Surgery isn't easy, and there will be some pain involved (they will give you pain meds for that), but in the long run it's what's best for your dogs. It will prolong their lives by years.

Also, a lot of the behavioral issues you're having with them, fighting over food and toys, should stop once they're spayed.

I would urge you to do some research on spaying, think it over, ask questions. I'm more than willing to post some info on the pros and cons of spaying so you can make an informed decision.

One final question. When did they last have a complete health check done? Not just shots, but a complete physical evaluation?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alty

Spaying an older dog can be hard on them, but the only changes in behavior will be positive ones. The people that complain of depression or lethargy, usually do so immediately after the surgery. It's a major surgery for a female dog, I won't lie and tell you that it's a simple procedure. Surgery isn't easy, and there will be some pain involved (they will give you pain meds for that), but in the long run it's what's best for your dogs. It will prolong their lives by years.

Also, a lot of the behavioral issues you're having with them, fighting over food and toys, should stop once they're spayed.

I would urge you to do some research on spaying, think it over, ask questions. I'm more than willing to post some info on the pros and cons of spaying so you can make an informed decision.

One final question. When did they last have a complete health check done? Not just shots, but a complete physical evaluation?

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They got their shots a year ago right before I left Chicago and a physical in like in April and they were fine except my cocker had some stone which caused her to urinate a lot I got her Meds she had a few follow ups and has been fine ever since. The shih tzu is completely healthy. Yes I help with the spay/neuter surgeries in the clinic they are quick twenty minute procedures I'm not afraid of the surgery itself just the after affect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flatsouffle

They got their shots a year ago right before I left Chicago and a physical in like in April and they were fine except my cocker had some stone which caused her to urinate a lot I got her Meds she had a few follow ups and has been fine ever since. The shih tzu is completely healthy. Yes I help with the spay/neuter surgeries in the clinic they are quick twenty minute procedures I'm not afraid of the surgery itself just the after affect.

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Have they been checked since this potty issue started? I would get a vet check just to make sure it's not something medical, to rule that out.

Female dogs that aren't spayed can suffer from more medical issues than dogs that are spayed. Uterine cancer is a big one (not to scare you).

I do understand the fear that your dogs will have a personality change after they're spayed. I really would urge you to do some research on the pros and cons (there are both) of spaying, then make your decision. But, I do worry that maybe some of the issues you're having may be because of the fact that they're not spayed. That and the changes in your household.

Of course, without meeting your dogs, that's just a guess.

If they haven't been checked since this potty issue started, a vet check should be your first go to, just to rule out infection that could be causing them to potty in the house. If that vet check is clear, then follow the steps I outlined for you, that should get them back on track with patience and time.

I'd love to see pictures of these two little stinkers. I have two little stinkers of my own, my two latest. One is a 1 year old border collie, the other a 5 year old beagle, two boys, and although I do advocate spaying and neutering, I have to admit that neither of them has been neutered. Not by choice, more because of cost. In fact, I've never had un-neutered (I've always had males) dogs before these two, and I have to say I'm having some aggression issues which I'm very sure is due to them not being neutered. I never had these issues with my other dogs. If I had the money (over $800 to neuter both of them) they would be going in for the surgery tomorrow. I know the difference it makes, not only health wise, but behavior wise. But to be fair, I've only ever had male dogs, so I can't really say for sure that your fear of personality change in your females, isn't founded.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Dogs certainly don't think like people but I wonder if "people" would live in an area slightly larger than they are, unable to urinate and defacate when they need to, forced to stay in that cubicle with almost no human contact, always being shamed and threatened, realizing that people they love are upset and frustrated and thinking of "hurting them" how they would react - of course, you can always "bathroom" and live in it.

Also note OP gets home from work at Midnight Wonder how much time dogs have off lead, outside, even outside on lead - ?

Why have two dogs when you can't handle one?

Sad all the way around.

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Just to clarify I work 8-12 some days do for the most part I'm home I take them out and interact with them go to dog parks and play and hope that they don't go in the house the problem that I mentioned in my other post just happened like days ago this problem has been going on for weeks and it's tiring. I've taken care of them for five years and there has never been a problem like this any health issues I paid for the Meds out of my own pocket with a high school clerical job. I spend rent money on doctor visits and high quality food on them. I spend hours grooming them and making sure they look and smell their best. Neglect no I take them out all the time and have a routine with them. The problem is not the fact that they don't get attention or go out it's the fact that one of them doesn't poop outside rather inside now. Yes I crate them when we don't go out but that limits the areas that they can mess in. Can you blame me for not wanting an odor free home? A clean carpet? Yea u hate to have them caged up I do but right now it's the only thing I can do right now until I can get to the root of them problem. If it was just me living here the situation would be a lot different but the fact that I also live with someone I have to take into the account of them being comfortable in their own home as well. Who wants to pick up poop and pee in a random hallway or room? No one does and if you can sit there and say that that is something you are willing to accept you need to reevaluate your perception of reality hun no offense but please don't judge me I'm simply looking for someone with intention to truly help not judge me. Honestly there are much worse people out there.

I read this entire thread and was so impressed by the wonderful "job" Alty is doing, by your back and forth with her - and then I got to this: "Just to clarify I work 8-12 some days do for the most part I'm home I take them out and interact with them go to dog parks and play and hope that they don't go in the house the problem that I mentioned in my other post just happened like days ago this problem has been goin on for weeks and it's tiring. I've taken care of them for five years and there has never been a problem like this any health issues I paid for the Meds out of my own pocket with a high school clerical job. I spend rent money on doctor visits and high quality food on them. I spend hours grooming them and making sure they look and smell their best. Neglect no I take them out all the time and have a routine with them. The problem is not the fact that they don't get attention or go out its the fact that one of them doesn't poop outside rather inside now. Yes I crate them when we don't go out but that limits the areas that they can mess in. Can you blame me for not wanting an odor free home? A clean carpet? Yea u hate to have them caged up I do but right now it's the only thing I can do right now until I can get to the root of them problem. If it was just me living here the situation would be a lot different but the fact that I also live with someone I have to take into the account of them being comfortable in their own home as well. Who wants to pick up poop and pee in a random hallway or room?? No one does and if you can sit there and say that that is something you are willing to accept you need to reevaluate your perception of reality hun no offense but please don't judge me I'm simply lookin for someone with intention to truly help not judge me. Honestly there are much worse people out there."

You either keep them kenneled as you originally said or you don't, which is what you are saying now. Paying for their vet bills doesn't make you a saint - it's something responsible pet owners do. I took a third job (yes, count them, three) to pay for my dog's medicine. That does not make me a saint. That makes me a pet owner. I spent this past weekend - check my posting history, I wasn't on AMHD - looking at puppy mills. Other than your two dogs, what do you know about dogs, breeding, their care and treatment?

I also note that the defacating/urinating is not the only problem - " ... She's extremely destructive she destroyed all my furniture eliminates in the house after an hour long walk pick fights with my other dog. She barks all the time I have invested do much time and money into her and it's frustrating. The days when she bahaves she amazing but others it make me want to tear my hair out ..." from your other thread.

Solving your "dog problems" is like putting a puzzle together, one thing posted here, one thing posted there.

I'd had multiple dogs my entire life, all but two rescues, all but two with issues of some sort, all of them good dogs, some of them needing a lot more training and patience than others. I've also had roommates and partners and dogs that took a long time to housebreak. I've had rescues from pet mills and one rescue from a dog fight. My (now 8 year old) GSD lived in a cat kennel from 5 to 7 weeks (too young to leave her mother) because her owner couldn't housebreak her (at 5 weeks, keep that in mind). She also was afraid of stairs so she got "nudged" (translation: kicked) down a flight of stairs to (apparently) teach her a lesson. I'm sure the owner was frustrated, and I'm sure my dog was tired of being isolated in a cat carrier.

This is not my first rodeo.

I need to reevaluate my perception of reality? No, you need to revaluate your anger. Read your initial post and ell me if you think your description of your behavior toward these dogs sounds reasonable.

I'll let the rest of your post concerning hate and bad pet ownership stand for itself.

And, yes, there are much worse people out there than people who lock their pets away rather than hurting them. For starters let's talk about the dog fight ring where I got my dog and the people who "nudged" my GSD down a flight of stairs. Let's talk about what I've seen at breeding mills - and the pet shops that buy these puppies and the people who buy from those pet shops. Then I'll tell you what I tell my stepkids - yes, there are worse kids are there. That doesn't excuse you.

You're in over your head in more than one area of your life - I get that. We've all been there. I do get that part. You are frustrated. I get that part. Your dogs don't act like you want them to. I get that part. They should urinate and defacate when you direct them to do so, despite the fact that they now consider their crates to be their private bathrooms (a situation which you have set up). I get that. Have I ever had to lock my dogs away to keep myself from hurting them? No, I can't say I ever have.

I also don't set one standard for you and one for myself - I have been frustrated and upset. I have cried over my sick animals and lost them and suffered and grieved with other people who post here, very particularly Alty. I am not made of stone. I do see enough mistreatment and suffering and pain (as do several other people) in a week to change my thinking for life.

I'll tell you the same thing I told you about your personal relationship - if you are in over your head, get out.

All of that aside - calling me "hon" is dismissive and insulting. Post a few more times, earn your stripes, spend a few years in pet rescue - then decide if you've earned the right to insult anyone. And am I judging you? Yes, you bet I am. I am judging you on your first post (to which other people also responded in a way which I am guessing you considered harsh or judgmental), not the way you've cleaned up your act as this thread has gone along.

I'm not your "honey."

As long as I'm writing an essay here - WG, care to publish me - I'll throw in that I really could not care less what you think of me, how you think of me, if you think of me. My concern is your dogs and how they are treate. Your name calling, dismissiveness, are insulting but otherwise... no matter. When you rescue animals, try to change things, you get called all kinds of names. You get used to it.

Alty is giving you good advice. I hope you follow it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I read this entire thread and was so impressed by the wonderful "job" Alty is doing, by your back and forth with her - and then I got to this: "Just to clarify I work 8-12 some days do for the most part I'm home I take them out and interact with them go to dog parks and play and hope that they don't go in the house the problem that I mentioned in my other post just happened like days ago this problem has been goin on for weeks and it's tiring. I've taken care of them for five years and there has never been a problem like this any health issues I paid for the Meds out of my own pocket with a high school clerical job. I spend rent money on doctor visits and high quality food on them. I spend hours grooming them and making sure they look and smell their best. Neglect no I take them out all the time and have a routine with them. The problem is not the fact that they don't get attention or go out its the fact that one of them doesn't poop outside rather inside now. Yes I crate them when we don't go out but that limits the areas that they can mess in. Can you blame me for not wanting an odor free home? A clean carpet? Yea u hate to have them caged up I do but right now it's the only thing I can do right now until I can get to the root of them problem. If it was just me living here the situation would be a lot different but the fact that I also live with someone I have to take into the account of them being comfortable in their own home as well. Who wants to pick up poop and pee in a random hallway or room?? No one does and if you can sit there and say that that is something you are willing to accept you need to reevaluate your perception of reality hun no offense but please don't judge me I'm simply lookin for someone with intention to truly help not judge me. Honestly there are much worse people out there."

You either keep them kenneled as you originally said or you don't, which is what you are saying now. Paying for their vet bills doesn't make you a saint - it's something responsible pet owners do. I took a third job (yes, count them, three) to pay for my dog's medicine. That does not make me a saint. That makes me a pet owner. I spent this past weekend - check my posting history, I wasn't on AMHD - looking at puppy mills. Other than your two dogs, what do you know about dogs, breeding, their care and treatment?

I also note that the defacating/urinating is not the only problem - " ... She's extremely destructive she destroyed all my furniture eliminates in the house after an hour long walk pick fights with my other dog. She barks all the time I have invested do much time and money into her and it's frustrating. The days when she bahaves she amazing but others it make me want to tear my hair out ..." from your other thread.

Solving your "dog problems" is like putting a puzzle together, one thing posted here, one thing posted there.

I'd had multiple dogs my entire life, all but two rescues, all but two with issues of some sort, all of them good dogs, some of them needing a lot more training and patience than others. I've also had roommates and partners and dogs that took a long time to housebreak. I've had rescues from pet mills and one rescue from a dog fight. My (now 8 year old) GSD lived in a cat kennel from 5 to 7 weeks (too young to leave her mother) because her owner couldn't housebreak her (at 5 weeks, keep that in mind). She also was afraid of stairs so she got "nudged" (translation: kicked) down a flight of stairs to (apparently) teach her a lesson. I'm sure the owner was frustrated, and I'm sure my dog was tired of being isolated in a cat carrier.

This is not my first rodeo.

I need to reevaluate my perception of reality? No, you need to revaluate your anger. Read your initial post and ell me if you think your description of your behavior toward these dogs sounds reasonable.

I'll let the rest of your post concerning hate and bad pet ownership stand for itself.

And, yes, there are much worse people out there than people who lock their pets away rather than hurting them. For starters let's talk about the dog fight ring where I got my dog and the people who "nudged" my GSD down a flight of stairs. Let's talk about what I've seen at breeding mills - and the pet shops that buy these puppies and the people who buy from those pet shops. Then I'll tell you what I tell my stepkids - yes, there are worse kids are there. That doesn't excuse you.

You're in over your head in more than one area of your life - I get that. We've all been there. I do get that part. You are frustrated. I get that part. Your dogs don't act like you want them to. I get that part. They should urinate and defacate when you direct them to do so, despite the fact that they now consider their crates to be their private bathrooms (a situation which you have set up). I get that. Have I ever had to lock my dogs away to keep myself from hurting them? No, I can't say I ever have.

I also don't set one standard for you and one for myself - I have been frustrated and upset. I have cried over my sick animals and lost them and suffered and grieved with other people who post here, very particularly Alty. I am not made of stone. I do see enough mistreatment and suffering and pain (as do several other people) in a week to change my thinking for life.

I'll tell you the same thing I told you about your personal relationship - if you are in over your head, get out.

All of that aside - calling me "hon" is dismissive and insulting. Post a few more times, earn your stripes, spend a few years in pet rescue - then decide if you've earned the right to insult anyone. And am I judging you? Yes, you bet I am. I am judging you on your first post (to which other people also responded in a way which I am guessing you considered harsh or judgmental), not the way you've cleaned up your act as this thread has gone along.

I'm not your "honey."

As long as I'm writing an essay here - WG, care to publish me - I'll throw in that I really could not care less what you think of me, how you think of me, if you think of me. My concern is your dogs and how they are treate. Your name calling, dismissiveness, are insulting but otherwise ... no matter. When you rescue animals, try to change things, you get called all kinds of names. You get used to it.

Alty is giving you good advice. I hope you follow it.

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You think I don't work hard for what I do I'm not calling myself a saint or anything. I know that dogs are a big responsibility that's why I'm making the effort to seek help from different resources to find the root of the problem. You think I don't work hard? You make me seem like spoiled child that foods under pressure you're wrong I work two jobs and go to school I take 18 credit hours still come home and spend time with them since the summer break I've been home more often so that gives me leeway to take them out to dog parks go to play dates on Sundays yes I spend my hard earned money on them just like any let owner should do. Did I say that makes me a saint no. Something like that is expected you demonize me and belittle me for reaching for help. Reading your posts used to upset me I have to admit but just waking up and reading this post I can't help but laugh you waste so much time trying to make me seem like a terrible person and judging me instead of actually posting useful advice or ideas of why this problem is happening all of a sudden. You care that much about animals but you refuse to actually answer the question but blame the owner for having feelings and personal problems. Excuse me for being human the last time I checked everyone has their bouts every once in a while and feeling different kinds of emotions weren't so strange either. Have I acted on my emotions no do I get overwhelmed yes. I actually cried last night when I took my shih tzu out again and she actually pooped in the grass. So you can't say I don't care. I do. I say I am very well in touch with reality hun. I think it's you that is not maybe if you join the rest of us here on earth and jump down from that pedastal every once in a while maybe we can find some common ground. I'm not the one to argue continuously over unnecessary endeavors so you can think what you want I really don't care. No I'm not shying away I just choose to take the high ground and be the adult and end this. Say what you all day and night but where does that get you no where. And to be quite honest I barely read your last post your twisted view of me couldn't be more off track and I couldn't stand to read anymore about your iconic view of yourself so with that being said this useless discussion is pointless and is solving nothing.

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Originally Posted by Alty

Have they been checked since this potty issue started? I would get a vet check just to make sure it's not something medical, to rule that out.

Female dogs that aren't spayed can suffer from more medical issues than dogs that are spayed. Uterine cancer is a big one (not to scare you).

I do understand the fear that your dogs will have a personality change after they're spayed. I really would urge you to do some research on the pros and cons (there are both) of spaying, then make your decision. But, I do worry that maybe some of the issues you're having may be because of the fact that they're not spayed. That and the changes in your household.

Of course, without meeting your dogs, that's just a guess.

If they haven't been checked since this potty issue started, a vet check should be your first go to, just to rule out infection that could be causing them to potty in the house. If that vet check is clear, then follow the steps I outlined for you, that should get them back on track with patience and time.

I'd love to see pictures of these two little stinkers. I have two little stinkers of my own, my two latest. One is a 1 year old border collie, the other a 5 year old beagle, two boys, and although I do advocate spaying and neutering, I have to admit that neither of them has been neutered. Not by choice, more because of cost. In fact, I've never had un-neutered (I've always had males) dogs before these two, and I have to say I'm having some aggression issues which I'm very sure is due to them not being neutered. I never had these issues with my other dogs. If I had the money (over $800 to neuter both of them) they would be going in for the surgery tomorrow. I know the difference it makes, not only health wise, but behavior wise. But to be fair, I've only ever had male dogs, so I can't really say for sure that your fear of personality change in your females, isn't founded.

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Yea I did take them to the vet I brought in a stool sample and they got X-rays and they're blood drawn everything was normal she did mention that my cocker's stones were reforming could be due to water change and consistency so That explains the excessive setting but not the pooping in doors from my shih tzu. Yea I would love to upload pics of them I have cute pics of them in costumes for halloween and birthday pics even pics of my German Shepard husky mix who now works as a police dog. He just turned 7 last week. Couldn't see him though he works in Chicago back home. But I'm on this site via mobile which kind of is the reason for the spelling mishaps due to autocorrect. So once I figure it out I will :) yea it looks like I'm going to have to save money and just shoot for the spaying

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Originally Posted by Flatsouffle

you demonize me and belittle me

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No, you did that to yourself in your very first post. Wanting to hurt your pets and putting them for hours in crates did not sit well with me, so I PMed Alty to please chime in with her terrific dog advice which she then gave with her usual good sense.

I rescue cats (who poop and pee in all sorts of strange places until they have been lovingly and patiently taught otherwise), am a volunteer at our local cat shelter, and have seen and heard similar horror stories to Judy's. As she noted, your story has changed throughout this thread. I echo Judy and encourage you to either follow Alty's advice to the letter to improve your dogs' lives or rehome at least your "problem" dog. Your emotional self will thank you.

So has anyone mentioned separation anxiety? Because that's what it sounds like to me.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No, you did that to yourself in your very first post. Wanting to hurt your pets and putting them for hours in crates did not sit well with me, so I PMed Alty to please chime in with her terrific dog advice which she then gave with her usual good sense.

I rescue cats (who poop and pee in all sorts of strange places until they have been lovingly and patiently taught otherwise), am a volunteer at our local cat shelter, and have seen and heard similar horror stories to Judy's. As she noted, your story has changed throughout this thread. I echo Judy and encourage you to either follow Alty's advice to the letter to improve your dogs' lives or rehome at least your "problem" dog. Your emotional self will thank you.

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And you still fail to realize the difference between feeling and action I can feel a certain and not image in that emotion. Before this problem they had full range of the house I could leave home and come back and no poop or pee present. I could go to my room come out and no "presents" left on the carpet. Compared to their freedom a few weeks ago yes they are crated more now if I have to leave the living room for any reason yes they are crated whether I need to grab something out of my closet or use the bathroom myself I'll crate them because I don't trust leaving them alone for any moment knowing that there's a hug possibility I have poop or pee on the floor. With that being said I don't think that's cruel. I never yell at them or chastise for them eliminating in the house. I bottle it up. Yea I get upset who wouldn't get frustrated. Hence to put this problem to an end I SEEKING HELP.

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Originally Posted by Lucky098

So has anyone mentioned separation anxiety? Because that's what it sounds like to me.

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I thought that too when I'm home they are attached to my hip but that's no different from when I first got them sometimes they'll sneak off and do it and come back and sit next to me. Of course I get suspicious and look around for any accidents

Alty has given you help. You are making a crate a punishment when a crate should be a safe place, a den. What has changed to cause this behavior? New food? You've moved more than once? You have been on an emotional roller coaster (and the dogs sense that)?

Are you up to starting over with Dog Training 101 as Alty has suggested?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Alty has given you help. You are making a crate a punishment when a crate should be a safe place, a den. What has changed to cause this behavior? New food? You've moved more than once? You have been on an emotional roller coaster (and the dogs sense that)?

Are you up to starting over with Dog Training 101 as Alty has suggested?

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Yea I have today I sucked it up and decided to retrain them. I have upped their outtings from four times a day to after every meal. I'm just glad to know its not a medical thing I thinks it's more due to their diet change as well I want to switch them back but I realized that beneful it's not a good brand and I want to keep them on blue ribbon or at least a higher quality food but I don't want to bombard them with too much. I woke up this morning and there was no waste in the cage so I was relieved. I don't want their crate to be their punishment place but I feel as if I have no other alternatives to keep them in a confined space if I'm not around. Back at home we had a baby gate but the way this apartment is set up that's not possible. As of right now they're out of the cage. My cocker is on the couch with me and the shih tzu is laying in the cage the door is open though so she can come and go as she pleases.

Good for you! Now I'm smiling. Keep up the good work. Like Alty said, when they poop and pee outside after you say the potty word, go into a wild and joyful dance and praise them and even give a treat. They wlll get the idea. You're the pack leader and they want to please you.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Good for you! Now I'm smiling. Keep up the good work. Like Alty said, when they poop and pee outside after you say the potty word, go into a wild and joyful dance and praise them and even give a treat. They wlll get the idea. You're the pack leader and they want to please you.

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Yea did that too gave them some chicken jerky they are crazy for that stuff. I noticed my shih tzu likes to play before pooping so I kept her leash short and called her name whenever she did anything other than her business. Then we ran to the park and played. It was great. THANKS ALTY

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

And do those people ask you not to call them hun - like I did?

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I have a educated guess it's a colloquialism, possibly part of a Southern way of talking , especially brought out when under stress or when excited..

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Originally Posted by Flatsouffle

Yea did that too gave them some chicken jerky they are crazy for that stuff. I noticed my shih tzu likes to play before pooping so I kept her leash short and called her name whenever she did anything other than her business. Then we ran to the park and played. It was great. THANKS ALTY

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You're welcome.

Don't be harsh with Judy, she's seen more when it comes to animal abuse, than most people will ever have to see. When it comes to dogs, she is a saint. She rescues those that most people would be afraid to even try and rescue.

When it comes to animals, those of us that frequent the pet section, are very passionate about their health, and their well being. I chose to overlook the part of your post that raised flags for everyone else. I did that because I felt that you may have posted what you were feeling, frustration, not actually what you were going to do. I've often said "Oh, I could just kill Rascal", when he does something bad (Rascal is my 1 year old border collie), but of course I'd never do anything to hurt him. It's just me saying he's driving me nuts, not me saying I'd actually hurt him because I never would. The very thought makes me sick. So I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

But, keep in mind, this is an online community. We can only judge based on the written word. If you write that you're going to harm your dogs, we have to take that at face value. We don't know you. We don't know if you're just venting and don't mean it, or if you're really going to do what you wrote down. Judy knows me, so she knows when I write "I could just kill Rascal", that it's me venting, not that I'll actually do Rascal any harm. The written word is very hard to decode at times, especially with people you don't know.

My thought is that you care about your dogs. But, I also think you're spreading yourself very thin when it comes to them. You're not home a lot, they're in the crate a lot. Lucky mentioned separation anxiety. There have been a lot of changes in their lives, and you're not around a lot (not your fault, you have to make a living, and get an education), that all plays a huge part in their behavior.

They're not happy dogs right now. They need more of your time. They need to not be crated most of the day. They need to learn the basics again. But, most of all, they need you.

My last bit of "wisdom" to you. I love my dogs as if they were my children, and I have children as well, so I know what kind of love that is. My dogs are part of my family. If I couldn't give them the care they needed (I'm not talking about vet visits, food) if I had too much going in my life and I realized that they weren't happy because I couldn't give them more of myself, I'd re-home them. It would hurt like hell, but their happiness, their well being, is more important to me than my happiness. If you can't give more of yourself to them because you have so many other things on your plate, it may be best for them, and you, to find a new home for them. I'm not saying that to be mean, I'm saying that because it really does sound like you don't have a lot of time to even enjoy having them in your life, and because you don't have a lot of time, the few moments you do have, are spent in frustration because they're reacting to you not being there for them.

Just give it some thought. Re-homing your pets doesn't make you a bad dog owner. It makes you a human being that's realized you may have too much on your plate, and you don't want the little beings you love, to suffer because of it.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I have a educated guess it's a colloquialism, possibly part of a Southern way of talking , especially brought out when under stress or when excited..

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I've never had any complaints I call my friends Hun people I meet no complaints. Just something I tend to tack on randomly just like when people mindlessly say umm at the beginning of a sentence. Just something I picked up from my granny

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Originally Posted by Flatsouffle

I've never had any complaints I call my friends Hun people I meet no complaints. Just something I tend to tack on randomly just like when people mindlessly say umm at the beginning of a sentence. Just something I picked up from my granny

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I was born and raised in NC where everyone used to be "Hon." In Texas, it's "Darlin'."

Any new changes in the home or your life?

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Originally Posted by Lucky098

Any new changes in the home or your life?

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OP recently moved, dogs are on a new dog food, OP works 2 jobs and goes to school. I already addressed all of those issues in a previous post.

Sorry if I sound frustrated, but this whole thread has me a bit frustrated.