What puppy would be better to have? (maltipoo or shihpoo)
Im getting one of those in two weeks.
What do I need to get ready for, like things to get, tips, ideas?
Also is a boy or girl usually better?
Thanks!
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What puppy would be better to have? (maltipoo or shihpoo)
Im getting one of those in two weeks.
What do I need to get ready for, like things to get, tips, ideas?
Also is a boy or girl usually better?
Thanks!
Where are you getting the animal from? Do you have any previous experience raising a puppy?
Yes, I've had a puggle for 4 years now. But she's with my mom now and I'm in an apartment. But she was hard to potty train and sheds really badly. So I wanted one that doesn't shed as much.
Im getting it from a flee market, its like a little store.
You're getting a puppy from a flea market?? Sounds like you're being conned by a puppy mill. If you really care about dogs, please do not buy a dog from this place. Dogs are bred in terrible conditions, and puppies are born into filth without medical care. All the puppy mill wants is your money, and you will probably end up with a dog with behavior and health problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by stylistjennifer
Your best bet for finding out the puppy's history and behavior traits is to get the puppy from a legitimate breeder (and then you will get to meet the puppy's parents) or from a rescue/shelter, both of which will take the dog back if you can't handle caring for it.
Its like a store though, and I have heard from the area of many people getting puppys from the store its called puppy paradise and they love them.
I will look into a shelter though.
Will they have a maltipoo or shihpoo?
Does anyone know if one is better then the other?
Or things to get ready for a new puppy?
Any store that sells puppies is getting them from a puppy mill or a backyard breeder. Reputable breeders do not sell their puppies in a store. Buyers have to travel to their homes or farms to see the situation the puppies were born into and to meet the mother.Quote:
Originally Posted by stylistjennifer
Did the store tell you that lots of people are happy with their puppies, or do you know more than four people personally who bought puppies from this place and said the puppies are healthy?
Go to the library and look up puppy and dog care books at 636.7. Visit an area shelter or two to ask questions about training and care. Also ask them about non-shedding puppies that are available. You might be better off with an adult dog that is already trained.
Yea, I have heard from personal friends. The owners have the mother and fathers to the puppys at there home.
Also, is pets mart a good place to get help?
This is a warning sign that you are dealing with a puppy mill. Reputable breeders do not have a store front for selling their pups. Not all puppy mills are the low end easily spotted animal abusers. Some actually try to look reputable, however, their bottom line is still making money not trying to produce healthy happy animals and futhering the breed.Quote:
Originally Posted by stylistjennifer
May I ask why you are looking at those two types?
I juat wanted a small doggie. And one that would stay little. That I could carry around easily.
These two are very cute! They also have these two and said they can't let us see them or get them for 2 more weeks.
Have you seen the actual puppies or just parents or just pictures? How old are the puppies?Quote:
Originally Posted by stylistjennifer
I'm sure you are aware that a ShihPoo and a MaltiPoo are nothing more than Mutts.
There's nothing wrong with mutts at all but they should never, ever be bought from a store or a breeder.
NO reputable breeder will breed mixed breed dogs, which is why shelters are absolutely packed to the hilt with them.
The person you are intending to buy from is known as a Backyard Breeder, they are one step behind a Puppy Mill.
Puppy mills are basically farms for dogs, there are often 2-3 dogs in a small crate and they are onlt let out to be mated and to give birth.
B*tches are bred on every single season until they are too weak to even move, that's when they are either euthanised or just left to die.
The puppies are often very unhealthy and carry a lot of genetic problems.
Backyard breeders don't treat their dogs badly like Puppy Mills do, most of them are just household pets but the puppies can still end up just as unhealthy.
What reputable breeders do is genetically test ALL of their dogs before breeding to ensure a litter of healthy puppies.
There are many diseases or problems that are hereditary in dogs, meaning the parents can pass the problem on to the pups, a lot of problems don't show up until the dog is older so many BYBs (backyard breeders) unknowlingly breed dogs with problems as they show no symptoms yet and they don't want to spend thousands on genetic testing.
For small dogs the testing that the dogs should have is hip scores, patella exam, eye testing at the very least.
Dogs with known problems such as epilepsy, incontinence, monorchodism, etc etc etc should be neutered as soon as the ptoblem arrises and never bred from. Sadly a lot of people don't do this.
If you want to risk your dog having health problems later in life then go for it... buy from the flea market.
But it you want a healthy dog that has had the best possible chance at life then buy from a reputable breeder.
I would mention shelters buy it seems you are hell bent on buying a dog rather than adopting.
There is no such thing as a multipoo or shihpoo breed. Those are mixes, maltese/ poodle and shih tzu/poodle. No reputable breeder breeds mixes, that's your first clue that these people are nothing but backyard or puppymill breeders.Quote:
Originally Posted by stylistjennifer
A breeder would never sell to a pet store, nor would they sell at a flea market. These puppies may be adorable (I haven't seen a puppy that isn't) but they come from the worst conditions possible, the parents are probably kept in tiny cages and bred until they die, never having the freedom to run, to even feel grass under their feet. They are used only to make money for the greedy person that owns them. That's why the "breeder" won't let you see the puppies, she doesn't want to show you the conditions they live in.
So, if you're content with buying a puppy from a backyard breeder or puppy mill, thus continuing the abuse of animals, the mistreatment of poor dogs that cannot escape their abusers, then go ahead, God knows we can't stop you, but we can give you the facts.
Here is some information on puppy mills. I warn you, if you have a heart and care about dogs, this will be a real eye opener and parts of this are gruesome and graphic. Watch at your own risk.
No Puppy Mills Canada
My turn to chime in. These poor pups are likely at their cutest right now. You can possibly beat the odds and get a healthy dog, but if you couldn't be bothered to brush your first dog, how are you going to keep the new one healthy?
Paris Hilton at least had the heart to hire a caretaker for her fashion accessories. If you can afford one of those you can afford a purebred animal from a reputable breeder. If not, buy a stuffed animal. They stay cute and you can't hurt them.
Here's another video. It will make you cry.
http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/bruno_0002.wmv
Check your local shelters for non shedding small dogs, you can also check on line in your area for a particular one and they might have one that you can save.
A lot of people are giving up dogs now, because they can't afford them or maybe they no longer have a home:( You might even be able to get what you want that is already potty trained.:)
I would go with a boy that is already fixed. (my opinion) girls have more internal parts.
EDIT: tips... depending on what you end up with, just a couple of small toys, leash, collar, water and food bowls and cookies and food.
Please check your shelters
And reputable breeders can sometimes be cheaper then "pet stores". Local pet store selling a Malti poo for $3,000. Local shi tzu breeder selling puppies for $2,500.00 All up to date with needles and vet reccords are supplied, and back ground checks on owners done. Please listen to the advice from these people.
I have to tell this story... sorry guys...
My "friend" works at a pet store, she is constantly bragging about how much she knows about animals, and how well taken care of the dogs are, and they come from reputable breeders.
She even claims that the dogs are getting potty trained. One of the factors that you didn't like about your puggle was that it was "hard to potty train" right?
Well listen, depending on the age of these dogs, we will say 12 weeks (hopefully) they have probably spent close to their entire lives in a samll box or crate. Look at the living conditions they are in now. Their wholes lives so far have consisted of pooping and peeing where ever because they can, and have no choice. Do you think the people at these pet stores have time or the knowledge to train these dogs? So guess what? You are getting a dog with potty training problems already. Now I ask, do YOU think it is healthy for these dogs to be living in their own pee and poop for some times hours on end? Do you think the ownewrs and staff actually come in on their TIME OFF to take the dogs out side or to clean the crates?. I can tell you they don't at the pet store in my town. So next you get a dog who more then likely will have some sort of health problem from living in it's own mess.
Not to mention the potentially dangerous problems from the poor genetics. Do you know if the little guys parent had any genetic testing done?
Check out the shelters and breeders before you decide to buy and support puppy mills.
Here is a site that will help yo prepare for a puppy. If you are going to support a byb, at least you should have some knowledge on what to expect for your LIFETIME addition to your home.
Good luck.
http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/newdogowner.htm
I just don't get pet stores. Even my daughter who is 2.5 seems to understand the crulty of them.
When we walk past she wants to see the puppies and kitties, but she gets so upset that they are in those tiny glass boxes or crammed in small cages with one on top of another.
I hope the OP takes the advice given on this site.
I have a Shi Poo and guess what? He was a rescue. I'd never imagine buying a mutt from a breeder.
A side note..
Toronto Public Health Issues Warning After Puppy Sold At Flea Market Dies From Rabies - CityNews
I was part of that. I was the technician initially examining that puppy, who was bought at the Flea Market. Turns out it had rabies. Myself, and about 20 other people had to go through the post exposure rabies needles.
Not fun.
I don't agree with the fact that the dog is being sold at a flea market, nor am I agreeing with the fact that it's a "paper" mutt. However; not everyone can buy the premo $500-$1200 show quality, perfect specimen of a dog.
Just because the puppies are being sold at a flea market doesn't necessarily mean that the people who are selling them are bad people. I have run into a lot of people who are trying to sell $1200 papered America Bullies/Colorado Bulldogs outside of Wal-Mart. The dogs came with health checks, contracts and were up to date with all shots.. Not to mention the pups had superb bloodlines... That particular person just didn't have a better strategy to sell his puppies...
My advise for this person... Don't spend more then $150 for these puppies. Make sure that they are being sold with the required amount of shots for their age... Ask lots of questions about the parents!
I know a lot of people who breed designers ask for a lot of money for them. The result with a designer breed is that they are nothing more than a mixed breed.
Also... with this type of dog... Get it fixed... Please...
I couldn't disagree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky098
A legitimate breeder usually has a waiting list for the pups they breed. They've done their research, the testing, the showing of the dams and studs. They also don't make a profit on these pups, even at $3000/each, because that's what it takes to properly breed a pup.
Anyone that is selling a dog in a parking lot, flea market, newspaper, pet store, well, they're not necessarily bad people, but they are the reason that our shelters are overrun and millions (yes, millions) of dogs die each year.
If people would leave the breeding up to breeders, then the problem would be stopped.
Anytime you support a backyard breeder or puppymill (and yes, someone selling in the Walmart parking lot is a backyard breeder) then you're putting another animal in the shelter.
Don't play the dead dog game.
These people that she is looking at getting the animal from are not sounding reputable in any way. Actually, they sound like a glorified puppy mill. They have a 'store'. They have the parents for two different crossbred pups at their home (I would not be surprised if they have more they are breeding). The pups cannot be seen for two more weeks. (I am wondering if they will be older than six weeks old in two weeks when they will supposedly be 'ready' to send home). People from around the area have been getting enough puppies from these people for long enough for the place to have a reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stylistjennifer
Quote:
Originally Posted by stylistjennifer
I, also, think the op has a misguided idea of what a companion animal is and what a commitment to a puppy she is actually making. She had (her mom now has) a four year old 'puggle' that she gave away because it sheds too much. Now, she wants dog that will stay 'little' so that she can easily carry it around. She had a dog but has to ask what to get for one. Something is wrong with this picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by stylistjennifer
I sincerely hope that the op thinks seriously about why she wants a dog and what she expects from one. Once she has truly looked at what she is getting into, I hope she makes the best choice for any animal she adopts/rescues/buys and herself.
There are A LOT of legit breeders in this world that sell puppies for hundreds of dollars to the wrong homes. I think breeding in america is strictly for money making no matter who you are. Honestly, who breeds anything just for the sake of making something better. It all comes down to money.
Yes, this particular situation could very well be a bad one... But like I said, some people just don't know how to sell their dogs.
Legit breeders are considered puppy farms as well, They're just on a different level. But you cannot tell me that the breeders of championship dogs aren't breeding for money.. Of coarse they are. The only thing that makes them different from the backyard breeders is that they are selective with their breedings and have gone that extra mile to prove the dog...
Any time you breed a dog... or any animal for that matter.. you are putting that animals life in the hands of a person who you will never meet/see ever again. I guess what keeps a good breeder from a bad breeder is a good breeder will take their dog back no matter what.
There is a breeder in my area of German Shorthaired Pointers. She has the $3000 puppies and the priceless adults. She breeds like crazy and doesn't screen homes and won't take back her puppies. Her dogs are very pretty... I got the pleasure to meet one... No brains at all.
So no, I'm not going to have all my faith in a rep. breeder. If the OP wants a good dog, she should look in the shelters.. But from the sounds of it, this particular person shouldn't own a dog period.
And NO I am not one for backyard breeding. But... there is a difference between the backyard breeder that is selective and caring and the one that doesn't even realize their dog is pregnant. Our first litter is probably considered a backyard breeding... It just so happened both parents were very well bred... the mother was an accomplished hunter and 2nd generation american. We are still in contact with every home except one. But that was our first and last litter ever. So I believe everything is circumstantial.
Sorry Lucky, not ganging up on you but I pretty much disagree with that whole post.
I don't doubt there are some show people that do the wrong thing, but the majority only breed when they are wanting a dog for themselves... not for money. That is why you need to do your research when looking at buying a puppy. It's not just the breeder that has to ask questions, but the buyer as well.
Because of this they only breed once or twice a year (if that) and have a waiting list people have to go on because their dogs are in such high demand.
I personally have been waiting for a puppy for over 2 months now from a reputable breeder.
She has just whelped 4 dogs with a 5th on the way.
Now that may sound like a puppy mill, having so many b*tches in whelp at once but when you take into consideration the fact that she hasn't bred for over 3 years it blows that out of the water.
She was content with the show dogs she had and had imported some frm out of the country, now that they have grown up and won their awards she retired them to breed the next generation.
Saying that reputable breeders are on the same scale as a puppy mill is honestly a big slap in the face, as is saying we breed for money.
Reputable breeders will only sell to approved homes.
The last litter of Danes my parents bred they personally went to every house of people wanting one of their puppies. They checked for adequate fencing, asked where the dog would be sleeping, asked about the persons finances and job security. It might sound nosy to some but having a secure job is very important to them to ensure the pup will get the care it needs going into its adult life.
When they sell dogs they also ask the buyers to send photos and updates of the dog all through it's life.
They give them a puppy pack with their number in it to call them any time they have a problem.
Me. Carnation Farms. Bill Cosby. Tannenwald Kennels. I could list several thousand more by name, but just look up the voting membership of the American Kennel Club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky098
You mention a breeder of German Shorthairs that sells $3000 dogs. If they leave between 12 and 18 weeks of age maybe she broke even. It depends on what kind of deal she gets from her vet.
I don't know of a kennel that shows a profit consistently. Dogs, unlike cattle or swine, simply do not have a market large enough to justify the expense.
Most breeders that I know, my family included, did incredible amounts of background checks with potential puppy owners. My mother used to call their place of work to get references. As well as getting a list of referneces from friends and vets. My mother said "no" to people more often then yes. And that is one of the reasons she stopped breeding.
I am sorry Lucky, you have made some good points on other posts, but I truly believe that you are off the mark on this one. Anyone selling puppies in a Walmart parking lot is NOT a reputable breeder. It's been said many times before, but I am going to say it again, most breeders DO NOT make money of their litters.
If the OP has money to buy a puppy from a pet store, then she should have the money to buy from a reputable breeder.
I know a lot of people just "want a pet", but a lot pf people just don't understand what it takes to be a good pet owner. And it starts from purchase point. Meaning if you are not a part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.
I can tell from your posts that you ((Seem to be)) are educated, and have knowledge on animals. Do you seriously believe that a person selling dogs from the trunk of their car is a reputable breeder? Do you seriously think they have the puppies best interest in mind? Obviously you can't believe that, I say that simply because you, yourself said YOU keep in contact will all of your puppies new owners except for one. Why else would you do that unless you knew it was the right thing? I myself would not buy from a breeder ONLY because I would want to adopt a rescue. I find there is more "moronic" pet owners out there who want a fashion accessory more then a pet. And then when these dogs get too big, or shed too much, they end up God Knows where. I am not interested in breeding, or owning a pure bred dog.
I have borrowed this from an article I read online from the examinor.com
"Here are some warning signs that may prevent you from buying a dog from these breeders. Make sure the puppy your intending to buy has been health tested according to common problems with the breed you are intending to buy. Always visit the home or place of breeding and trust your instincts. Make sure the conditions are sanitary and loving. A responsible breeder will never put a dog in a horrific situation. Never buy a puppy that is under 8 weeks of age because the puppies should be fully weaned of the nutrition from the mothers. Breeders that care about the health of the dog would never sell a puppy younger than 8 weeks to provide the puppy with adequate nutrition. The mother should never be bred earlier than 2 years of age because of the stress it will cause on her body. If you find an ad in the paper or see a stand at a flea market, that is the most important sign. Good breeders almost always have waiting lists on unborn puppies and would never sell to anyone without doing some kind of check to make sure the new home is suitable. Reputable breeders do not want their puppies to end up in shelters or abandoned. A spay and neuter contract is mandatory for “pet quality” purchased dogs. If the puppy you buy will only be a pet, the breeder will require you to spay or neuter to reduce overpopulation".
Backyard breeders or reputable breeders.
Also please check out the last link.
Backyard Breeder vs Reputable Breeder
I am sorry Lucky, you have made some good points on other posts, but I truley beleive that you are off the mark on this one. Anyone selling puppies in a Walmart parking lot is NOT a reputable breeder. It's been said many times before, but I am going to say it again, most breeders DO NOT make money of their litters.
You cannot tell me that a breeder who has 12 puppies on the ground selling for up to $3000 each isn't making money... that is $36000 per litter per year... Not to mention their stud dogs that are standing at stud year round... Most breeders do not take in individual litters to the vet for annual shots. They have everything at the facility. A bag of puppy food is $50 or less... they only feed for 3 months about. These people make money. The same in the horse world... If you have good bloodlines... good proven studs, mares... you make money. The reason the backyard breeders are breeding is because they see these breeders making money so they want in on it too. Only they are not selective of the homes or their breeding stock. There is no limited registration, and they do breed every cycle. Yes, that is bad... I agree with that. But to put the Legit breeders on a pedistol that they will single handily stop the over population of dogs in America, then YOU all are wrong. If you want to get into the nitty gritty part of that, I honestly think that it is the over pricing of vet work that causes unwanted puppies... A spay/neuter shouldn't cost $200 or more. That is highway robbery. Vets shouldn't charge $40 or more for DHLPP shots. Its ridiculous.
Story time... I saw a lady go to our local vet that has a deal with the local animal shelter.. She can get a spay for $60. She was making the appointment and the vet techs were talking her into an additional $60 for laser surgery... $40 for the DHLPP shot and $50 on a pain pack. The office visit alone is $45... that's $195 that didn't need to be spent... THAT is why there are too many dogs in this world.. Vet work is TOO expensive for the average person.
Animals don't have insurance like humans do. You still have to pay the money up front. A lot of people who buy puppies for $50 or less just don't have the money for that type of vet work... and seeing how this is such a huge issue, I think that these procedures should be affordable for the average income family... There should be programs for people who can't afford vet work. Some type of relief for these people.
No.. Selling dogs at Wal-mart is not a good idea. The one encounter that I had with a pretty decent person had good, quality dogs. His dogs were health guaranteed, parents were hip checked and at the time the dogs were being sold under limited registration. In his contract it blantely stated that if you no longer wanted the dog or the dog was sick, bring it back. He had the best bloodlines in the Bullie world. The dogs were selling for $1200 a pup.. They were being sold at 12 weeks of age and were up to date on all shots needed... He told me that he won't being having another litter for another year... To me.. that sounds like a decent breeder. The way he advertises his dogs, probably not the best way.
Rescue has opened my eyes to the breeding world more than any of you will ever think. Even the Legit breeders make mistakes and have some dogs fall through the cracks. Just recently, my rescue got in a NAVDA level 2 hunt tested, well bred superb dog... She was dumped in the shelter... to be killed... and where was her breeder? No where.
Within this past year, there was a breeding facility in MO, that was set on fire by its own owner. He was NOT considered a puppy mill, but bred LOTS of dogs and sold them for LOTS of money. With that fire, as rescuers sifted through the number of dogs, they came across a dog that was microchipped that was from the number one breeder of GSPs in Canada. And yes, the breeder took back her dog with lots of egg on her face because one of her puppies ended up in one of these facilities. She is top notch, she is reputable, she shows... and this happened to her. It can happen to anyone.
It all comes down to supply and demand. These legit breeders put the price on their puppies because that is what they can sell them for. If these breeders wanted to take it upon themselves to stop the madness of the overpopulation of dogs, then they wouldn't breed period.
I have done my research.. I have found a good breeder out in PA that I would enjoy buying from. And yes, I would have to give a drop of blood in order to buy from them. They have a litter every year, two years ago they had a rare breeding that will never happen again. So yes, I understand what it means to be on a waiting list. The thing that bothers me is that this person was asking for an opinion as far as temperament. Instead, everyone on here bashed her and drove her away because she is buying a puppy from the flea market. She's going to buy the puppy anyway... and now she is not going know anything on how to take care of this puppy. We should all be here to inform new owners on the do's and dont's of puppies... not chase them away because they are doing something that we don't agree with...
I am not the best writer, and sometimes I don't voice my opinion very clearly, and some times I come off as just plain rude, but here goes.
I don't think the posters here are so naïve as to think all reputable breeders are perfect, but then again, would they really be reputable in that case? I think that if I, or you, or the other posters do not inform her of the ugly truth on pet store pets, then who will?
Ya maybe it was a bit preechy, but did you think that maybe she stopped and really thought about it, or questioned it somemore on a different site, or with friends, and got some really good info on pet store pets?
I can't talk for everyone, but I know that my opnion will never change on pet stores and the likes. And I will sing my song until I am blue in the face. I know it will not change evryone, but one person counts to me.
I think the OP did get some good advice on the potential dangers of pet store animals. Especially since she already gave away a dog with "problems" I think she was well informed that pet store dogs are likley to have all the same problems. I thik everyone one of us mentioned to check out a shelter first.
Hopfully the OP comes back and has the info to make an informed decision.
And I couldn't agree with you more Aurora_bell.. I really couldn't.. but sometimes I think that people on this website just get out right rude and the information given turns into bashing.
And just from what I can read.. the OP is buying from a flea market... Not a puppy store.I think she was trying to describe a flea market is like a small store. I fail to believe that the puppy mills would even waste their time selling their dogs at a flea market.. They have puppy brokers who find them business... And no... the OP probably doesn't need to buy another dog since she gave one up already... But.. who knows what the circumstances were on that... Maybe she was in a situation where she couldn't take her dog and her mom kept it. I try not to judge right away.. I always try and give people a chance to be a good person.. Perhaps that is my flaw...
What I understood was the flea market was the name of the pet store...
I guess from what I have seen is that pet stores usually buy from back yard breeders.
I agree on not trying to judge too quickly, God knows I've made my share of mistakes. Not too bad of ones as far as animals are concerned, but I count that to my up bringing, always had pets, and probably always will.
In my opinion, regardless if it is a pet store, a flea market, a parking lot or an add the clasified, 9 times out of 10 they are NOT reputable breeders. No I do not have actual proof to back up these stats, but I can take the word of the shelter workers where I volunteer as my "proof".
I really do hope the OP is reading these posts, I hope she gets the info she needs.
I wasn't trying to gang up or bash you either lUcky :) like I said you make some good points. And I like that you can speak your mind, even if it is different then other peoples opinions. THAT is a good quality :)
The puggle was mine and my mothers. I moved out and she wanted to keep puggles! I didn't just leave my other puppy! My mother would have never let me take her anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat1864
Thank you for clarifying that part. I can quite understand leaving an animal in a place that it is used to.Quote:
Originally Posted by stylistjennifer
Just so you know I'm not trying to argue, this is a topic that I have been discussing a lot lately on and off the internet so it gets me a bit fired up.
I hope you're up for a discussion ;)
Cost of buying b*tch - $3,000 +Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky098
Cost of top stud dog - $3,000 +
Cost of buying equipement (whelping boxes, blankets, heat lamps, etc) - $500
Cost of vaccinations and worming (litter of 12, 2x vacc.) - $1000
Cost of food for 3 months (formula and dry) - $800
Cost of puppy packs (litter of 12, worming tablets, food, toys, accessories) - $600
Cost of c- section if needed - $3,000 + or -
Health testing - pretty much unlimited dependng on breed but we will say $1000
Total $12,900
Now when you say the breeder makes $36,000 on a litter, I doubt very much that all of the pups would be sold for $3,000 each... I don't know anyone that sells pet quality pups for that much. Show dogs yes certainly they would charge 3 grand but pets are usually sold for aorund $1000 on a spay/nueter contract.
I don't know how it is in America/Canada but here in Australia it is very very rare for a breeder to give a litter vaccinations at home. Every single breeder I know (and I know several hundred breeders) takes the pups to the vet for vaccinations twice before they are rehomed.Quote:
Most breeders do not take in individual litters to the vet for annual shots. They have everything at the facility. A bag of puppy food is $50 or less... they only feed for 3 months about. These people make money. The same in the horse world... If you have good bloodlines... good proven studs, mares... you make money.
That's $40 a pup for a check-up and c3 or 4 vaccination, they also get health certificates to go with the pups to their new homes.
If only backyard breeders knew how much it truly cost to breed a litter properly.Quote:
The reason the backyard breeders are breeding is because they see these breeders making money so they want in on it too. Only they are not selective of the homes or their breeding stock. There is no limited registration, and they do breed every cycle. Yes, that is bad... I agree with that. But to put the Legit breeders on a pedistol that they will single handily stop the over population of dogs in America, then YOU all are wrong. If you want to get into the nitty gritty part of that, I honestly think that it is the over pricing of vet work that causes unwanted puppies... A spay/neuter shouldn't cost $200 or more. That is highway robbery. Vets shouldn't charge $40 or more for DHLPP shots. Its ridiculous.
Like I have said before, it's not just whack 2 dogs together and 9 months later the miracle of birth, it's a very costly operation.
They talked her into it. If she did her research she would have to pay all that extra stuff.Quote:
Story time... I saw a lady go to our local vet that has a deal with the local animal shelter.. She can get a spay for $60. She was making the appointment and the vet techs were talking her into an additional $60 for laser surgery... $40 for the DHLPP shot and $50 on a pain pack. The office visit alone is $45... that's $195 that didn't need to be spent... THAT is why there are too many dogs in this world.. Vet work is TOO expensive for the average person.
A $60 spay is insanely cheap. I personally paid $170 when I got my girl spayed.
Have to disagree there, if someone pays $50 for a puppy then yeah they got a cheap puppy but they should know how much vets cost.Quote:
Animals don't have insurance like humans do. You still have to pay the money up front. A lot of people who buy puppies for $50 or less just don't have the money for that type of vet work... and seeing how this is such a huge issue, I think that these procedures should be affordable for the average income family... There should be programs for people who can't afford vet work. Some type of relief for these people.
I would encourage everyone to look into local vets and enquire about prices for common procedures before buying a dog.
When I got my 2 I knew how much a visit costs and I knew how much spay/neuter was.
I knew how much they charge for anaesthetic and how much different surgeries cost.
Pet insurance is available just the same as health insurance for people is.
This one confused me... if he has such great bloodlines and such healthy dogs why were they being sold in a pet store?Quote:
No.. Selling dogs at Wal-mart is not a good idea. The one encounter that I had with a pretty decent person had good, quality dogs. His dogs were health guaranteed, parents were hip checked and at the time the dogs were being sold under limited registration. In his contract it blantely stated that if you no longer wanted the dog or the dog was sick, bring it back. He had the best bloodlines in the Bullie world. The dogs were selling for $1200 a pup.. They were being sold at 12 weeks of age and were up to date on all shots needed... He told me that he won't being having another litter for another year... To me.. that sounds like a decent breeder. The way he advertises his dogs, probably not the best way.
The last time my mom had a litter of Great Danes she had a cancellation and had one puppy left unsold. She held onto that pup until it was 5 months old trying to find the perfect home for him. She would never dream of putting him in a pet store to just be sold to anyone!
She advertised on a site called Dogzonline It is a site for show people, there are updates on the latest shows and people wins, as well as mature dogs and puppies for sale. There isn't a single backyard breeder on this site, they are all showers.
That is not the breeders fault.Quote:
Rescue has opened my eyes to the breeding world more than any of you will ever think. Even the Legit breeders make mistakes and have some dogs fall through the cracks. Just recently, my rescue got in a NAVDA level 2 hunt tested, well bred superb dog... She was dumped in the shelter... to be killed... and where was her breeder? No where.
That is the person who bought the dogs fault for not contacting the breeder before dumping the dog at a shelter.
People lie... it happens. Breeders can screen the heck out of homes but you will still get people lying to you, you have to use your better judgement when selling dogs and I guess the buyer in that case lied about taking the dog back to the breeder.
This goes back to my last response in that people lie.Quote:
Within this past year, there was a breeding facility in MO, that was set on fire by its own owner. He was NOT considered a puppy mill, but bred LOTS of dogs and sold them for LOTS of money. With that fire, as rescuers sifted through the number of dogs, they came across a dog that was microchipped that was from the number one breeder of GSPs in Canada. And yes, the breeder took back her dog with lots of egg on her face because one of her puppies ended up in one of these facilities. She is top notch, she is reputable, she shows... and this happened to her. It can happen to anyone.
The price of purebred, qulity dogs has risen in the past few years.Quote:
It all comes down to supply and demand. These legit breeders put the price on their puppies because that is what they can sell them for. If these breeders wanted to take it upon themselves to stop the madness of the overpopulation of dogs, then they wouldn't breed period.
You used to be able to buy a show quality poodle for $1500, these days it's more around the $3,000 mark. Why? Because breeders are utterly miffed at the fact that someone little Maltipoo can have puppies and fethc the same price as their prized show dogs.
I don't think there was any bashing.Quote:
I have done my research.. I have found a good breeder out in PA that I would enjoy buying from. And yes, I would have to give a drop of blood in order to buy from them. They have a litter every year, two years ago they had a rare breeding that will never happen again. So yes, I understand what it means to be on a waiting list. The thing that bothers me is that this person was asking for an opinion as far as temperament. Instead, everyone on here bashed her and drove her away because she is buying a puppy from the flea market. She's going to buy the puppy anyway... and now she is not going know anything on how to take care of this puppy. We should all be here to inform new owners on the do's and dont's of puppies... not chase them away because they are doing something that we don't agree with...
I may be a little harsh in my responses sometimes but that is mostly because I have read and responded to countless posts on this site about people buying from pet stores.
There are so many posts about "I can't potty train my puppy" or "my puppy has an infection" etc etc and a lot of them are from pet stores.
It really makes me sad when people breed with no idea how to do it properly and the buyer suffers for it with future genetic and behavioural problems.
Sorry for the ridiculously long post :o
Shazzy, I read your post, I also read Luckys. I'm not going to quote everything because that would be a small book and I'm tired. ;)
So, a few points I want to make.
First, Shazzy, I couldn't agree more with your post, sadly I have to spread the rep. I agree with everything you said. The only thing I do want to mention is my beagle, Chewy.
Chewy is a purebred beagle, I got him from a very well know breeder. We drove quite a ways to see him. We got to see the parents, we got a tour of her farm, where the dogs are kept, etc. etc. She had a package for us, the vet info about the shots and deworming because Chewy was already 12 weeks old (she refuses to adopt out puppies before then). We got a toy, a collar, all the information about his mom and dad, pictures of his mom and dad and litter mates, an agreement from her stating that she would take Chewy back if we ever decided we didn't want him. A complete health check, the health checks and genetic testing done on Chewy's mom and dad and more. We had to sign a contract that Chewy would be neutered and not allowed to breed.
Her parents were beagle breeders, so she learned from the time she was a little girl. She loves the breed. She also breeds horses and that's how she survives. She breeds beagles because she wants to better the breed, she wants to keep the breed alive and pure. Trust me, she doesn't make one red penny on these pups. We paid $250. For Chewy. I can promise you that in Canada, with two sets of shots, deworming and a vet check, she lost money when she sold him to us. Heck, just to neuter Chewy will cost $300.
I asked her why she sells them for so cheap. Her response. I don't just sell to anyone (which is true. Although we met the first time when we went to see Chewy, we had many conversations via email and telephone before she told us we could come look at, not buy, one of the pups). She asked us many questions, had to meet our kids, asked for pictures of our home (like I said, the distance was great and she has vision problems, doesn't drive) before we got the invitation to visit. Once she met us she agreed to sell us one of her pups. That's how we got Chewy.
A few weeks after we got Chewy I went to a local pet store to get some supplies and I took Chewy with me. When I got there they had beagle puppies. This pet store buys from local backyard breeders. Most of the puppies are mixes, all are $500 - $1500 depending on the "breed" and the only reason I go there is to get food and supplies, because sadly they have the best supplies in town. Sadly, I have to admit that this is the store that I purchased Cotton from, before I knew better.
I was outraged. They were beagles, not mixes and they were being sold for $550. They were around the same age and size and Chewy. When I went to the register with my purchase (bunny food and some dog treats) the cashier turned to me and said "that will be $631". What! For bunny food and dog treats? She said "and the beagle, don't forget him". I laughed. I told her to count how many pups were in the pen because it's the same number as when I came in, with my puppy. So she asked questions. Where did I get him? How much did I pay. I told her about the breeder and I also told her that I could buy two puppies and food for both with the price they're charging. She was shocked.
Breeders do it for the love of the breed. I have bunnies that cost me an arm and a leg. I do it because I love bunnies too many are killed because of miseducation.
As for shelters. I'm all for getting a shelter dog, have one myself and two shelter bunnies. I volunteered at the shelter. Until you've worked the euthanasia room, held down a dog while they put the needle in, you cannot tell me I don't have the right to talk against backyard breeders and puppymills. I've looked into the sad eyes of many dogs that were brought into this world because of the stupidity and greed of humans.
::clunk, off my soapbox::
I'm looking at my beautiful puppy (Coogle) as I write this, he is always with me and I got very lucky.
I got him from an ad in the paper (before I knew better)(3 months after my 'Bob' passed away) and when I went to see the puppies, I was appalled at the living conditions, I wanted to take all the puppies, I couldn't afford all the puppies... they were $400.00 a piece with papers. Being ignorant as I was I picked my puppy and was very happy.
This man had everything in his Mobile home house, 30 birds, 6 baby dogs, another 5 or more dogs outside. It was disgusting and it smelled, but I didn't care because I wanted my puppy and I got him.
My 'Winston' was from the trunk of a car in a parking lot at a mall. He was with us for about a week when I realized he had Parvo. I called the woman who sold him to us for $30.00 to warn her about the other puppies and she never really got back to me. He spent a couple months of his life trying to survive and lucky for me he did, because he was the love of my life, but he always had some problems and cost us a lot of money to keep him healthy for 17 years.
My 'Bob' (Bassett Hound) was also from a 'back yard' breeder, we did not know any better. We actually thought that was the only way to get a dog and we were not stupid people, we were just not informed. We had no idea:(
My point is that I and I'm sure many other people have no idea what was going on in the world as far as Puppy Mills and Backyard breeders. I think many people think that is the only way to get a dog that they can afford or get what they want.
Of course I understand now and would not have unless I found this sight:)
Sooo keep on preaching everyone:) because it does make a difference, I have seen it just since January. I will only get a puppy from a shelter for the rest of my life, because I don't need a show dog.:rolleyes:
OK done, sorry:)
Ok... My opinion.. STRICTLY my opinion.. I have nothing against the breeders of America.. or any country for that matter. I really don't. Yes, a lot of GOOD breeders breed for the love of the breed.. Not arguing that in any way.. HOWEVER, There are breeders out there that are superb breeders, have wonderful breeding stock and have every right in the world to brag.. Those people, I'm sorry to say, are in it for the money... Maybe not completely.. but the $$ changes a lot of things.
Shazzy... The handful of breeders that I know of and have met all have their vet supplies on hand. The facility is already in place.. the major costs of whelping puppies has already came and went... The cost of the parents is up there, I agree with that.. but the owners probably bought those dogs at least (hopefully) 2 years prior to even breeding... The dog more than likely earned its money back by placing in the show ring. A lot of the time, breeders will breed within their own group... or if they do breed outside their kennels, I know sometimes, (not all the time) the owner of the other dog does get first pick. Back to the costs of the puppies... The breeders that I know have everything on supply.. from wormer, to DHLPP to the Micro Chip that they implant themselves...
Vets are just too expensive. I'm not sure how things work where you're at, but here in the U.S. going to the vet for a annual check up is a small fortune. I live in the county,I don't live in a big city... But I do know that when people take their new rescue dog to the vet for a check up, the new owners send us bills ranging from $300 to $800 for just a reg. check up or spay/neuter. To me, I think that's wrong. Owning a pet should not be an expensive hobby... It should be an enjoyment... and the medical needs should be affordable.
My pride and joy pit bull, Miley (as pictured) was a puppy being sold in a card board box. She cost me $50... this is, by far, the best dog I have ever had. She is a healthy dog and doesn't require anything extra. She's so incredibly smart... This pit could be a service dog and probably blow away all the labs, goldens and poodles that are in that program... My 12 year old GSP... I kept her from my mom's litter. If I had to buy her TODAY as a puppy, I would be looking at $1200... I showed her... I titled in AKC... She is a great dog as well.
As for the guy at wal-mart... sorry I brought him up. I, personally, didn't think he was a backyard breeder... Would I buy his puppies? Probably not... I know what I want, and I will soon get what I want. And what I want, is in PA at Blockhead kennels.
Altenweg... I'm sorry, but I will never put a healthy, squirrely dog down.. I will never watch the light leave there eyes.. I was not put on this earth to aide in the destruction of God's creatures... I just won't do it... I worked at the animal shelter for a day... It was D-day for the cats in the hold room... A whole litter of 4 week old kittens were going to be put down because they hissed at employees... I quit the next day.
I am not against the breeding of quality dogs... I'm not... But I think that sometimes we all get side-tracked. I think we all believe that if a dog doesn't come from XYZ Kennels, that they are considered backyard breeders... I think quality, reputable breeders are whether the person is able to take the dog back.. whether the breeder is selective with the homes their puppies go to, whether the dogs that are being sold are healthy, and guaranteed to be healthy... and Definitely whether the amount of dogs that particular person produces within a year.
However, I will not... in any way... put ANY breeder up on a pedistol and put my faith into them 100% that they will, all by themselves, stop the mass production of dogs in this world... Because when everything is said and done, those people are just are responsible for putting MORE dogs on the ground as the next person.
Oh! One more thing... As for the puppies being sold all at that high of a price... I know not all of them are sold at price.. But $1000 is still too much for a pet... People aren't looking for the next rin-tin-tin... And sometimes, the $20 puppy sold in a box is all the want/need even if it is completely wrong...
As for a spay being $60... yea right... that was an add on to the actual price of the procedure... Spay/neuter is based on weight.. I think my breed of dog is $120 (rescue gets discounts, so I'm not very sure).. the $60 is an add on to that for laser surgery... Not too many people know how to dodge the manipulations of the vet techs... and so the next time they get a puppy, they're not going to do the right thing because the last time they did it, it was way too expensive. That's where my problem lays... I think there would be less dogs, if vets were more affordable... Most people aren't going to get a dog and expect to spend more than what they make a pay period on a vet bill. But that's just my opinion. :P
I do agree that vet costs are over the top.
I shopped around and found a relatively cheap but very good vet. There are cheaper ones around but you get what you pay for where I live.
My vet used to be the local shelters vet until he opened his own surgery so he has worked with a lot of animals, that's why I got him to spay my rabbit, I knew he had done it a lot before whereas other vets were a little iffy about treating rabbits.
It's definitely a lot different over here in regards to vaccinating and chipping pups. I know of only one breeder who does it himself and to be honest, I think he should have been struck off as an AKC breeder a long time ago.
He knowlingly breeds dogs with hereditary problems and because he doesn't go to the vet and does everything with his pups from home he gets away with lying to potential buyers about the health of their new pup.
A lady I know just got a dog off him with a heart defect. The dog will be lucky to live until it's 2 years old.
Both parents carried the problem and he darn well knew it.
That makes me angry beyond belief.
The lady was relatively new to showing and wanted a dog to breed herself... she is now never buying a dog or showing again. I feel so sorry for her.
I'm definitely not saying that all AKC breeders are good, fact is there are a bunch of bad ones but that does not mean that all show breeders are dishonest and sell bad pups. There are quite a few out there that do every possible thing right to ensure a healthy, happy litter of pups.
Same goes for backyard breeders, there are some good ones and there are some bad ones, unfortunately with BYBrs the bad outweighs the good.
The puppy I am getting soon, even though it is a show dog comes with a stud contract.
I am not allowed to stud that dog out to any other person because the bloodline is so sought after. I have to sign numerous contracts and the dog may even be in a partnership, meaning that both my name and the breeders name will be on the dog. He will always be mine but it's a good way to ensure the new owner (me) does the right thing.
If vet costs were any cheaper, I don't think you'd have any technicians working, considering how little we make. :P
Being a vet tech, that line struck a chord. What manipulations? With recommending laser surgery? We provide the advantages of the procedure and let the owner make their decision, it is not manipulation - we are looking out for the pets best interest. And $60 is about normal for a price, I think we range at $50 to $100 extra for laser depending on procedure, mainly because the machine cost close to $100,000 and the upkeep costs with tips (each tip costs $10, plus the handles are about $300, sterilization on another near $100,000 machine with upkeep and maintenance and cost for packs, the chemicals to clean the laser itself, the cost of the filters for the vaccuum on it, cost of repairs, etc etc etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky098
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