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Originally Posted by DocWill

Its all good, you make me laugh even if you are a bulldog fan! I didnt take offence to any thing ya said, you looked like you were on a mission and I just laughed! Secretly I was wondering how I could get paid regarding pet food. Then it shifted towards leaving my students and I couldnt have that. Where else can you go to work with your dog, not know what trauma or species will appear, show some kool kids how to put dogs and cats back together with purple string and needles while getting paid for it?

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Yep I stole my first dog (not really, I told them they could give her to me or I would come back and steal her) back in 1976 from the University of Georgia Vet Hospital. That was the old, old hospital. She was a Dalmatian that had been gathered up as a X dog. My future wife was an animal care taker there at the time. It was nice to live close to a University Hospital. Cutting edge treatments available for my pets and my farm animals. I can remember 5 or 6 students coming out in a van when they would visit my farm to help with a lame horse. I too am lucky enough to bring my dogs with me everyday. Well really 3 are mine and one I am fostering for a Animal Rescue Group. Just to make sure I to stay on topic here, the Dalmatian choked to death on a piece of beef liver. I couldn't get it out and even my attempt at a Tracheostomy didn't save her. Funny thing was as soon as she died the liver just fell out. So I guess liver is not a good thing to give your dog, at least I never did it again.

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Originally Posted by MrPippin

So I guess liver is not a good thing to give your dog, at least I never did it again.

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Was it cooked or raw??

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Didi

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Originally Posted by grammadidi

Was it cooked or raw???

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Didi

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It was cooked. Left over from a night of liver and onions. I thought I had cut it into small enough pieces but obviously not. The other dogs in the pack ate the same thing but did not have a problem, this dog had eaten it before without a problem. It could have just been a matter of her gulping it to fast, but I have never fed a dog liver again since that day.

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Originally Posted by MrPippin

Who gets to decide when they are irrelavant? You and Labman?
MrPippin

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Anybody that feels a post, including mine, violates the rules or something including questions posted to the wrong forum can click on the report inappropriate post button. The report will be emailed to any expert for the forum, Curlyben, Fr_Chuck, and Rickj. In the case of the dog forum, of course that would be me. If I fail to act, likely the others have enough to do, they won't either. If your report is ignored, you can PM or email them. I don't have the last say here. I have never tried to give myself a warning. I have tried to transfer a question to another forum, and it worked. I can't transfer questions from another forum to Dogs. J_9 has done a good job of transferring dog health questions out of the human forum.

Labman I was upset you deleted part of someone's post and feel you did so improperly. I am not saying you are a bad moderator and I am not trying to attack you personally. I hope you can understand that. When I see something I feel is wrong I speak my mind on the subject. I also have my dogs on commercial feed as I have stated. However I do not give the pet food industry folks a pass on the disaster we just went through. I think we as consumers need to hold them accountable for poor judgement and not accept "Whoops" as reason. I don't use the Barf diet, but I have customers and friends that do, and I have not seen any ill effects on their animals. I don't use it, because I don't have the time to chop up meat and veggies for my dogs twice a day. I prefer to open the bag and scoop it into their bowl. I supplement it with the occasional double cheeseburger bite from McDonalds. My dogs too, seem to be very healthy and I feel lucky for it. Frankly I was shocked when I heard the product names being recalled, and as the dogs continued to die, I became angry. I think we have both made our positions pretty clear and for us to continue this disagreement is going to be un-productive for both of us. I would really prefer to let this go and concentrate on other things. MrPippin

OK so I'm getting a warm and fuzzy feeling here. Let me understand on May22 posted by" kisiel5 "dog hit by car spoiled by human food" If I give my opinion again the same as I did on this one... I don't need to go incognito... is this what I'm hearing on this post. Cause after all I did say feed the dog a good quality dog food along with some yummy chicken, beef ,brown rice , veggies etc... just making sure that it is OK to say. That's what got me introuble to begin with. :) peace

I think it would benefit everyone who is new to this site to review the site rules. One of the things that I believe is causing the confusion is that you cannot just get into a back and forth discussion on someone else's post. The rule is that we have to answer the poster's question. We can't get off on tangents, discussions, or difference of opinions. If we do, then it is the moderators, or actually anybodys, responsibility to bring the thread back to topic. Meaning, we have to direct people to limit our discussion to the question posted. If there is a disagreement about something, start a new topic in Members Discussion or here as Labman did. We are allowed to voice our opinions, and get into "gentlemanly" (or womanly LOL) debates there. You can PM someone and invite them to your post. Throughout this site, the main rule is abusive language, name calling, personal attacks, are not allowed.

The rules can be found at the bottom of every page under FAQ. Here is a link. I think it will help put everything into perspective. There is room for everyone here. Please understanding that it is incumbant upon the Experts, Moderators, and Administration to abide by the rules and ensure we all do the same. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/faq.ph...#faq_faq_rules

I hope this helps shed some light on the confusion. Sorry to have hijacked your thread for this Labman. I just felt that this may be the root of the conflicts that have been popping up.

Okay, back to the food discussion. :)

There is a big problem here and elsewhere with a vocal minority inserting their radical views on dog diets into threads it is irrelevant to. I have decided rather than challenge them in such threads, to just delete the material. They are still free to express their views in other threads. I don't know if it will work not. On another site I am active on, the administrator imposed a 3 month moratorium on discussing raw diets. I thought it worked very well, but don't think I have the authority to do it here. I do think I have the backing to keep it out of threads I think it is inappropriate. I will continue to delete what I judge to be a problem. I don't claim the wisdom of Solomon, and if I am inconsistent, it is not set in concrete that life is fair.

Look, the fact is, everyone is going to have their own views on what the best diet is. Every vet I speak with, never recommends holistic food. In the end, people do what works best for them. I have found the kibble I use is balanced perfectly to my dogs needs and lifestyle. It also minimizes the trips to get her teeth cleaned. She is almost five and her teeth are in excellent shape. I wanted the vet to do a cleaning and he told me no need. Yet, I need to get my teeth cleaned every 6 months. Dogs I have fostered that have been given people food as a regular diet, need their teeth cleaned or wind up losing some of them. I haven't fostered any that have been put on a holistic diet so I don't have the personal experience to state one way or another as to whether it is better in the long term or not.

I can say that my dog, who was a rescue, was extremely ill when I adopted her at 5 or 6 months old. It took me three months to get her on the right track health wise. Unfortunately, due to whatever happened to her early in her life and all the parasites and bacteria she harbored for an extended period, her digestive track is permanently affected. I tried everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, including holistic foods and cooking for her,. No matter what I did, she had chronic soft stools and/or diarrhea. Adding pumpkin and all the other suggestions by the vet didn't do anything. There was so much that we tried I can't remember it all. I finally spoke to the vet about finding a kibble with high fiber in it and even though she was young, we put her on the Hill's Science Diet W/D. People who are familiar with it know this is for older dogs to help keep their weight in check. That did the trick. Every once in a blue moon she has a about of diarrhea. It usually coincides with the change of season/weather.

Frankly, I think it is wrong to condemn an entire industry because of this recent health problem. Yes, there are manufacturers out there that will look for the cheaper sources and have quite a lot of additives and fillers in their product. You have to be a smart consumer with your pets, as you are with your own food. Do you want to talk about all the human foods that have been affected lately? Maybe, just maybe, all of this will lead to better standardization throughout the food industry in general.

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Originally Posted by bushg

ok so i'm getting a warm and fuzzy feeling here. let me understand on May22 posted by" kisiel5 "dog hit by car spoiled by human food" If I give my opinion again the same as I did on this one...I don't need to go incognito....is this what im hearing on this post. cause after all i did say feed the dog a good quality dog food along with some yummy chicken, beef ,brown rice , veggies etc.....just making sure that it is ok to say. That's what got me introuble to begin with. :) peace

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Sorry bush, I didn't look at the post until now. The problem was that the OP wanted his/her dog to start eating his dog food again and was looking for advice on how to do that. It wasn't open ended asking if people food was okay. It was apparent the OP felt that it wasn't.

I think it is important to understand that opinions are okay if the poster is looking for them. If they aren't, then we are obligated to stick to the question at hand.

All of us in the U.S. are used to freedom of speech and the right to voice our opinion. This web site is a privately owned site and our First Amendment Rights do not apply here.

For the record, I am not advocating the BARF diet, holistic diets, or any other kind of alternative diet for our pets. That is why I did not engage in Labman's Commercial Dog Chow challenge. I believe in finding what works best for the dog and for you. I prefer a food that doesn't result in more than one or two bowel movements a day. I prefer a quality food because I can feed less, which results in a monetary savings, because that is important to me. I presently feed my dogs IAMS Large Breed and I am quite happy with it. I also used Purina Veterinary Diet Canine Maintenance for awhile, but found that my Berner is more settled on the IAMS. The Lab is fine on anything that looks like food. :D

I originally used a Pet Food store lamb & rice formula chow for my rescued Lab/Husky cross after she recovered from a terrible about with parvo (which she had when I took her in). She looked and did GREAT on it, even my vet was impressed. However, he suggested it may not be the best food for her and suggested changing to Hill's. I did, but she eventually died with liver cancer and kidney failure, so I decided to try something different for the Berner as they are prone to these types of cancers. I don't believe either of these dog foods caused it, but I also decided not to tempt fate. I supplement both my Chocolate Lab's diet and the Bernese Mountain Dog's diet with occasional fresh peppers, carrots (for breath), varied fruits, brocolli (not very often - causes loose stools!), asparagus and cauliflower. Every once in the while I allow them some animal fat, chicken and beef marrow bones. The bones are only given under supervision, are never cooked and are large enough for the breeds. I would ONLY feed dry food, myself - mostly to keep the teeth healthy - UNLESS there was a medical reason to switch to canned.

Anyhow, just wanted to clarify as I don't want people thinking that I push any alternative diets. Right or wrong, I am a strong supporter of commercial dog chows, but prefer the more expensive brands.

Didi

DiDi, is a lab\ husky anything like a lazy work dog?

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Originally Posted by pawsdogdaycare

Since we have asked for a factual basis.. let's first consider business economics...the price of beef...

At this time last year, live cattle traded at 64 cents per pound; now it's just over a dollar. And retail prices at some stores have shot up about 40 cents per pound.

Now let's compare that to the price of dog food..

I......

Simple economics........ the price of all the supplies have increased dramatically, yet the cost of the end product has only increased nominally..
Petroleum products which are use to produce, the ink, the clear plastic freshness liner in the bags.. as well as fuel the trucks that deliver supplies, meaning shipping prices increased.. (fuel prices have increase by nearly 60% since last year)

The cost of paper- which is used to make the bags.., the cost of electricity which is used to process and manufacture the products,
The cost of steel-which is used to manufacture the canned varieties.. combined with a 40 cent minimum wage increase in the state of Florida alone.. Meaning drivers, baggers, stockers, etc get paid more.. yet the cost of dog food has only risen slightly..

One would have to ask how this is possible.. it's easy when the quality of the products has been reduced, or supplemented with cheaper available alternatives with no concern for the well being of the pets...

I will continue this banter later, I have to close the daycare for the evening.. till morning.. where will will address or attempt to address if there is any factual basis to the health benefits of one vs the other....

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Nice analysis. Even if your facts are correct, the selling price of a product has many other factors besides the cost of manufacturing and distribution. Besides, there are other ways of trimming costs other than reformulating. If your theory is correct, the ingredients in dog food should be different now than in the past. Are they? Well I compared the label on a new bag of Pro Plan to one several years old. I hang on to a few empty dog food bags because they make sturdy containers for various other stuff. The guaranteed analysis was exactly the same for both the several years old bag and the current bag. There was a minor change in the ingredients. Well down in the mid level dribs and drabs, the whole grain corn was gone. I can't say why it was removed, perhaps in response to all the negative opinions on corn as a dog food ingredient. I can't imagine at the level it was at, removing it having much economic effect.

That is just one product. Although I have a number of empty bags of dog food around, Pro Plan is the only one I have both a new one and an old one.

I may not have thought to dig out the old bag and compare them, if I hadn't read Nutro and why I don't feed it anymore I like the site. It seems to be a real trove of reliable info on dogs. The articles I have read seem to be long on the facts and leave out speculation. It is possible the guy loves dogs and his main agenda is to share the best info he can find in order to enhance the reputation of his kennel. Of course, he could be selling Diamond or Royal Canin too or even the obscure brand we were buying through a 4-H leader. In general, I think the site is a great resource. I used to direct people to its article on parvo, but decided the AVMA site has more credibility.

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Originally Posted by DocWill

DiDi, is a lab\ husky anything like a lazy work dog?

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Nah... more like a water loving sporting dog with a frog in it's throat.:eek:

Didi

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Originally Posted by grammadidi

While I agree that the moderator should not prevent the open discussion of alternative diets I also feel there is a time and a place for it, and I DO feel that this thread is an excellent time and place. I did not read the original post that the moderator deleted, so I am unable to comment upon whether or not it was appropriate. I also agree that all moderator's personal biases need to be held in check enough to ensure that the original poster and other readers can draw from all responses in order to make a well-informed decision based upon those responses. This can be done by providing their own response and supportive documentation if necessary and should not be done by randomly editing posts. (I am NOT saying that this is what happened in this particular case as I do not know!)

I personally feel that unless the advice posted is deemed to be dangerous, abusive, blatantly offensive, obscene or is obvious solicitation it should not be removed or altered by the moderators (particularly if it is just that they disagree). This kind of defeats the purpose of the site. Having people being able to read and comment upon those posts generally can give the OP and other readers an idea of which direction they should go. Advice and opinions are as varied as the people who give them. Doctors, lawyers, the clergy, veterinarians, breeders, teachers - they all have their own views and opinions upon things. (I think that's what makes us human?) However, if I post a question and get 30 different responses and 25 of them disagree with one person's response and agree with anothers then I pretty much can figure out which is the best advice for me to consider. I can then narrow it down further by seeing how much respect a person seems to have for and by others, and further by what their background and credentials are. I am all for free speech. :)

As for your point on the wild wolves, while I wanted to scream out "Touché!!" I also must make mention of the fact that when wolves are eating raw meat and bone, this is not their exclusive diet. They also eat a very high concentration of grains & other vegetation which is usually embedded within the stomachs of what they are ingesting. Neither man nor dog can live by meat alone. I suspect a huge part of the problems with both commercial and home-made dog foods are not the ingredients, per se, but due to technological error, ignorance and man-made materials (teflon, melamine, etc).

Now, I believe the topic here is actually about commercial dog chow, not Labman's abilities, knowledge or biases. How about we put the focus back on the original topic because I believe that many here have a lot of good information to offer. I also think the difference between commercial dog chow and canned food needs to be addressed. Obviously, the majority of the deaths so far have been attributed to prepared, canned foods, although I see more and more dried products being suspect it sure makes one wonder where all of this will lead?

Food for thought - if we can't ensure that OUR own human food is safe for human consumption, how can we believe that our pet foods are?

Didi

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I just absolutely enjoyed reading this post . I'm very receptive to the fact now that dogs just really may need grains.I never thought much about the matter of the stomach content. Great point. This is grain almost in its natural state... but when grain is processed how much vitamins does it lose through the high heat? That is my concern with commercial dog foods.esp the ones that list them as the first indgredients. That's why I feed my dogs a decent quality dog food Iams& blue buffalo ( I would use blue straight but it is very expensive), mixed together with some meat, veggies , brown rice, I figure with this variety they have to get what they need and it taste good. As far as the canned dog foods (sometimes my dogs like for me to hand feed them)... I have felt little sharp bones in some of the canned, so I don't give it to my dogs. THANKs FOr giving us the grain and vegetation spin it really makes sense.

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Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

Frankly, I think it is wrong to condemn an entire industry because of this recent health problem. Yes, there are manufacturers out there that will look for the cheaper sources and have quite a lot of additives and fillers in their product. You have to be a smart consumer with your pets, as you are with your own food. Do you want to talk about all the human foods that have been affected lately? Maybe, just maybe, all of this will lead to better standardization throughout the food industry in general.

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Only if we hold them accountable. If we give them a FREE PASS it sends the message that we are content with business as usual. We also need to hold our government accountable as this could have just as easily been thousands of humans dead and may be the next time if we don't make some changes. On May 30th the FDA announced that a domestic company "Uniscope" had tested the ingredients it was using in livestock and fish food for melamine and found that it tested positive. It purchased these ingredients domestically from Tembec another domestic company. After it found these melamine and melamine-related compounds in its ingredients it contacted the FDA and the FDA has announced a recall on the following products: Aquabond and Aqua-tec2 used in fish and shrimp foods and Xtrabond used in livestock feed.

Note that the FDA did not find this contamination it was the Uniscope Company that decided to test the ingredients being supplied to them that uncovered the melamine products. This they say they did because of the pet food scandal, they wanted to be sure of the products they were making. The testing was pretty simple and not very expensive. We need to make it clear to pet food manufacturers that we expect them to test the ingredients they are putting in our pets food. I don't want to condemn them, but if we don't demand it, most of them will not change.

MrPippin

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Originally Posted by grammadidi

Nah.... more like a water loving sporting dog with a frog in it's throat.:eek:

Didi

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The main problem I have with my Huskador (I like that name for a Husky Labrador Mix) is that she loves the water like a Labrador but soaks up water like a shag carpet. My son's labrador can go into the pool and come out dry. Mine goes in and brings 5 gallons of water out with her in her coat. But she loves her morning swim:) .

RE: post #56.

Of course, Mr Pippin, you are right about that. But, how do we as individuals do that?

I can guarantee you that there is going to be one MAJOR class action lawsuit. THAT is what will eventually hold them accountable and change the standards. THE FDA is not equipped financially to do the job properly at the moment. I believe there will be a major fallout and shake up due to this. Add into the mix the amount of human food that has been contaminated of late, and we have the beginnings of the making of a reevaluation and overhaul of the system.

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Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

RE: post #56.

Of course, Mr Pippin, you are right about that. But, how do we as individuals do that?

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We as consumers get to vote on products. Our votes are our dollars. Every consumer can write an email or a letter to the company they buy pet food from and let it be known that you expect the company supplying food to your dog, to test its ingredients. Especially if they are dealing with a foreign company. It is also very easy to write your Congressman and Senator's and let them know you expect them to fund the FDA and Agriculture Department with enough inspectors to keep our food supply safe. Believe it or not they do listen. And lastly ask questions about the brand or brands you use. If they are not testing, quit buying it until they do, believe me, if you hit them in the pocket book they will listen.

MrPippin

Unfortunately, most people who aren't affected by something like this become very apathetic and will not do anything because it is too much of a hassle. If we had less apathetic people in this country, we wouldn't have as huge a problem as we have with the stray/abused/neglected situation of animals that we deal with, among many other social issues we are currently experiencing.

I believe the class action lawsuit will be the pivotal, and ultimately deciding factor, in getting the changes that we need across the board.