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Originally Posted by DocWill

IM courious if the barf diet even has 8500 consistent consumers to compare with others. Anyone that is experianced at all with Veterinary educational funding is aware that Hills donates money like they are Donald Trump or something to produce doctors. So naturally I am educated in there product and Rx based food. When I suggest a diet to an owner and explain how it works in favor of the pets medical condition its usually Hills, some buy it some don't...

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Doc the pharmacy companies send lots of reps out to the Medical doctors as well. The reason is simple they want you to recommend their products. If they are paying for the education are they trustworthy when it comes to information about their competition? Or a better way to ask the question is are they going to pay for a school to teach that their food is not better for pets? These corporations are guided by profit pure and simply. If the ingredients in their processed foods was so important they would have spent the money to test these grains they were putting into their foods. They knew (or should have known) that China had the worst track record with the FDA and Dept. of Agriculture for contaminated food imports. Check out this web site to see the FDA's Import Alert warning on China. IMPORT ALERT IA9929 . Note that China's government claims the grain was shipped as a non-food additive. So these pet food companies used a grain which stated it was not for pet or human food consumption. There is an old saying " don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. These companies failed to supply you and your clients with a safe product and there is no reason to believe they will be changing their ways in the future.

Let me make it clear I make no money from endorsements of any diet. I actually have my dogs on Purina Beneful and only by the grace of God did Beneful not become contaminated by this Chinese Grain. I simply feel that for the moderator to prevent the open discussion of alternative diets is a dis-service to those reading these forums. He has already stated he has a bias and therefore is a poor person to moderate the discussion unless he can keep his bias in check. How many wild wolves died from melamine and melamine related compounds this year? What have they been eating? RAW Meat and Bone. I only ask that the debate be allowed so the readers can make up their own minds. If Labman wants to disagree GREAT! but to delete the other post that disagree with him is over the top.

MrPippin

For over 30 years I have fed dogs DOG CHOW, and just because of a few scares I will not stop feeding them what they are used to. I have had peanut butter, chicken, hamburger meat, etc. recalled from my house... that doesn't mean when my daughter asks for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich I should tell her no.

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Originally Posted by MrPippin

He has already stated he has a bias and therefore is a poor person to moderate the discussion unless he can keep his bias in check.

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I will have to disagree. I think Labman is a great moderator, he has never given me bad advice either. I came her the first day I got my puppy and without him here (which may I add NONE of you critcizing him were here at first) my puppy would not be on the right track. I will say some of you have given grea advice (and it's much appreciated) but Labman is ALWAYS here helping, and he's always the FIRST to answer. It is not like he's saying you aren't allowed to feed your dog what you want, he simply believes it's the wrong way and will not leave bad information on the boards for other new owners (like myself) to read.

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Originally Posted by MrPippin

How many wild wolves died from melamine and melamine related compounds this year? What have they been eating? RAW Meat and Bone.
MrPippin

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My tiny Maltipoo can certainly NOT be compared to a wolf. I have had raw chicken in my freezer that was recalled, but the puppy food I was using NEVER got recalled. Just because the dog chow ordeal was more publicized, doesn't mean there's not chicken recalled almost everyday in different areas.

I am sorry Mr Pipin, but what you said is not the way it is. This thread is abundant proof I am allowing an open discussion of alternative diets. Yes rather than let a question on the treatment of a dog that ate chicken bones get lost in a big discussion of dog diets, I did delete a statement I couldn't let go unchallenged. It is a huge problem both here and elsewhere of people trying to inject their narrow views on dog diets into threads having nothing to do with the subject. In compliance with the policy here to allow open discussion, I started this thread as the proper place for it. I also have allowed a suggestion of a holistic diet for a dog with itching problems and posted a link to a site with pro BARF links. So much for my repression of discussion.

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Originally Posted by LuvMyMaltipoo

I will have to disagree. .

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You are disagreeing with what? That he is biased? Quote from Labman "Twice my newsletter has included an anti BARF article."

I am not saying he is a bad moderator not at all, much of what he says I agree with. But he is biased with regards to commercial feeds vs alternate diets. If you as moderator have to censor those with whom you disagree because you are afraid you can't debate the difference in opinion then yes that is wrong. If he feels strongly about commercial feeds then he should shout at the top of his lungs in support of them. And as I have already stated, I use Beneful (a commercial feed) for my dogs. But in this country we have to be willing to support the right of those we disagree with to shout at the top of their lungs what they believe. I am absolutely opposed to censorship unless the person being censored is violating the rights of others by attacking them personally or using inapproprate language. I was probably over the top with the Chavez comment and appoligize for it. But we have to allow "ALL" opinions, not just support rights of those who agree with us.

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Originally Posted by LuvMyMaltipoo

My tiny Maltipoo can certainly NOT be compared to a wolf. I have had raw chicken in my freezer that was recalled, but the puppy food I was using NEVER got recalled. Just because the dog chow ordeal was more publicized, doesn't mean there's not chicken recalled almost everyday in different areas.

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Your missing the point here. Chicken, Peanut Butter, and now Toothpaste, these are all caused by Big Companies that put their profits above your pet and your safety. What vets and doctors believe today is not infallible. When the Atkins diet first appeared doctors came out of every door to condemn it. However 10 years later the results proved them wrong. Atkins was right. Now all the diets are about low carbs. Funny how things change. I am not recommending any diet, I just want to be able to hear both sides of the debate so I can make a informed discission. And I don't need someone deciding for me what I should not read on the subject.

MrPippin

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Originally Posted by MrPippin

You are disagreeing with what? That he is biased? Quote from Labman "Twice my newsletter has included an anti BARF article."

I am not saying he is a bad moderator not at all, much of what he says I agree with.

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NO, I was disagreeing with the fact that you said Labman is a poor moderator. And yes you DID say he was a poor moderator... reread your post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPippin
He has already stated he has a bias and therefore is a poor person to moderate the discussion unless he can keep his bias in check.

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Originally Posted by labman

I am sorry Mr Pipin, but what you said is not the way it is. This thread is abundant proof I am allowing an open discussion of alternative diets. Yes rather than let a question on the treatment of a dog that ate chicken bones get lost in a big discussion of dog diets, I did delete a statement I couldn't let go unchallenged.

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You didn't challenge it, you deleted it. BIG DIFFERENCE! You decided that I am to stupid to be able to tell when someone may be trying to endorse a product. But from what I have gathered it was not an endorsment of a product, but simply someone's opinion that an alternative diet might be healty. The person was concerned about a chicken bone and the person was simply informing that some diets include chicken bones but that it did make a difference if the bones were raw or not as cooking them could cause them to splinter and could cause harm.

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Originally Posted by labman

It is a huge problem both here and elsewhere of people trying to inject their narrow views on dog diets into threads having nothing to do with the subject.

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Some might consider your view on the subject to be narrow as well. Why not let the readers decide?

MrPippin

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Originally Posted by MrPippin

Some might consider your view on the subject to be narrow as well. Why not let the readers decide?
MrPippin

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Because it's a pain in the butt when you ask a simple question, for instance, when can my puppy begin to eat dog chow instead of puppy chow... and someone tries to start a debate on whether commecial dog food is healthy or not. I didn't ask what the consequences of dog chow were and quite frankly it kind of makes me feel like you're telling me I'm a bad parent to my puppy. There's a place and a time for it and that is the only thing Labman is trying to point out.

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Originally Posted by MrPippin

I simply feel that for the moderator to prevent the open discussion of alternative diets is a dis-service to those reading these forums. He has already stated he has a bias and therefore is a poor person to moderate the discussion unless he can keep his bias in check. How many wild wolves died from melamine and melamine related compounds this year? What have they been eating? RAW Meat and Bone. I only ask that the debate be allowed so the readers can make up their own minds. If Labman wants to disagree GREAT!, but to delete the other post that disagree with him is over the top.
MrPippin

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While I agree that the moderator should not prevent the open discussion of alternative diets I also feel there is a time and a place for it, and I DO feel that this thread is an excellent time and place. I did not read the original post that the moderator deleted, so I am unable to comment upon whether it was appropriate. I also agree that all moderator's personal biases need to be held in check enough to ensure that the original poster and other readers can draw from all responses in order to make a well-informed decision based upon those responses. This can be done by providing their own response and supportive documentation if necessary and should not be done by randomly editing posts. (I am NOT saying that this is what happened in this particular case as I do not know!)

I personally feel that unless the advice posted is deemed to be dangerous, abusive, blatantly offensive, obscene or is obvious solicitation it should not be removed or altered by the moderators (particularly if it is just that they disagree). This kind of defeats the purpose of the site. Having people being able to read and comment upon those posts generally can give the OP and other readers an idea of which direction they should go. Advice and opinions are as varied as the people who give them. Doctors, lawyers, the clergy, veterinarians, breeders, teachers - they all have their own views and opinions upon things. (I think that's what makes us human?) However, if I post a question and get 30 different responses and 25 of them disagree with one person's response and agree with anothers then I pretty much can figure out which is the best advice for me to consider. I can then narrow it down further by seeing how much respect a person seems to have for and by others, and further by what their background and credentials are. I am all for free speech. :)

As for your point on the wild wolves, while I wanted to scream out "Touché!!" I also must make mention of the fact that when wolves are eating raw meat and bone, this is not their exclusive diet. They also eat a very high concentration of grains & other vegetation which is usually embedded within the stomachs of what they are ingesting. Neither man nor dog can live by meat alone. I suspect a huge part of the problems with both commercial and home-made dog foods are not the ingredients, per se, but due to technological error, ignorance and man-made materials (teflon, melamine, etc).

Now, I believe the topic here is actually about commercial dog chow, not Labman's abilities, knowledge or biases. How about we put the focus back on the original topic because I believe that many here have a lot of good information to offer. I also think the difference between commercial dog chow and canned food needs to be addressed. Obviously, the majority of the deaths so far have been attributed to prepared, canned foods, although I see more and more dried products being suspect it sure makes one wonder where all of this will lead?

Food for thought - if we can't ensure that OUR own human food is safe for human consumption, how can we believe that our pet foods are?

Didi

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Originally Posted by LuvMyMaltipoo

NO, I was disagreeing with the fact that you said Labman is a poor moderator. And yes you DID say he was a poor moderator... reread your post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPippin
He has already stated he has a bias and therefore is a poor person to moderate the discussion unless he can keep his bias in check.

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Please read the post you quoted. It does not say he is a poor moderator it says he is a poor person to moderate this discussion because of his bias UNLESS HE CAN KEEP HIS BIAS IN CHECK. Judges routinely recuse themselves from hearing cases. Not because they are a poor judge, but because they have bias that would make it hard for them to be fair.

MrPippin

Of course Judges cannot be biased but Labman is not a Judge here... he is a moderator on a message board. Labman has pointed out that you must stay on topic... those are the rules... and he is required to enforce those rules. Yes, he is biased here, because this is an open discussion but when someone is telling me about how bad commercial dog food is when my question didn't require that information then he is obligated to say something. It has happened on my post and others. I didn't say Labman wasn't biased (WE ALL ARE) but that has nothing to do with the way he has deleted some of the posts... they are simply irrelavant.

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Originally Posted by LuvMyMaltipoo

Because it's a pain in the butt when you ask a simple question, for instance, when can my puppy begin to eat dog chow instead of puppy chow... and someone tries to start a debate on whether commecial dog food is healthy or not. I didn't ask what the consequences of dog chow were and quite frankly it kind of makes me feel like you're telling me I'm a bad parent to my puppy. There's a place and a time for it and that is the only thing Labman is trying to point out.

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If I posted a question like when should my dog be given jellybeans and a bunch of people jumped all over me saying I shouldn't, I could look at it as being a pain in the butt, or I could see that I might need to re-think whether I should give my dog jellybeans or not. I would prefer to receive everyone's opinions, either way, if it was my post. I just might learn something!

Sometimes people DO give their pets things they shouldn't have. What if I asked if it was okay to give my dog a piece of chocolate before bedtime or would it affect his sleep? Wouldn't you honestly jump all over me about the chocolate? I look at the information on this site as a learning experience and as long as people are posting in relation to the question (or the responses to it if on topic) then I think it's valuable and educational.

Just my honest opinion.

Didi

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Originally Posted by LuvMyMaltipoo

Of course Judges cannot be biased but Labman is not a Judge here... he is a moderator on a message board. Labman has pointed out that you must stay on topic... those are the rules... and he is required to enforce those rules. Yes, he is biased here, because this is an open discussion but when someone is telling me about how bad commerical dog food is when my question didn't require that information then he is obligated to say something. It has happened on my post and others. I didn't say Labman wasn't biased (WE ALL ARE) but that has nothing to do with the way he has deleted some of the posts... they are simply irrelavant.

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Who gets to decide when they are irrelavant? You and Labman? Your original question you are referring to was:

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Originally Posted by LuvMyMaltipoo

I was just wondering at what age does a puppy become a dog. It sounds kind of silly but I want to know when to convert from puppy to dog products, such as food and shampoo.

Also, Callie is a 3 month old Maltipoo, she's 5 1/2 lbs... is she fully grown? When will she stop growing?

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To that Labman responded that:

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Originally Posted by Labman

The early switch to adult chow depends on your goals for the dog. Puppy chow is a product of the animal feed industry and scientifically formulated to produce the fastest growth possible. We have abundant meat on our tables for less because the animal feed industry is very good at what they do.

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I disagreed with his statement that the animal feed industry is very good at what they do. And responded that they killed 8500 dogs over the last few months and that they were not even competent let alone good at what they did.

You mentioned food in your original post (such as food and shampoo). Labman responded about puppy food and the animal feed industry. I responded to his statement on the animal feed industry being good at what they do. Where did anyone get off topic?

Instead of posting your questions on an open forum, perhaps you should email Labman directly, they you won't have to worry that someone will disagree with either of you.

I note to that you didn't mind someone telling you how good commercial dog food was, you only became upset that someone would say it was not good. I am glad you stand up for the rights of those who agree with you. I will begin to respect you when you stand up for the rights of those who disagree with you.

MrPippin

I am not disagreeing with anyone's opinions on what they want to feed their dog, I am agreeing with Labman that there's a time and a place for it. And I also did not say that you couldn't post your opinion wherever you wanted, I just said it was annoying.

I do not want to message Labman directly with my questions because I HAVE gotten some really great answers from other people on this board (Ruby, Gramma, Dr, and many others).

It's kind of like if I posted a question asking if it was better to eat chicken nuggets or chicken tenders... and someone starts telling me how digusting I am for eating meat. I didn't ask for that opinion, although it's a valid one, it isn't necessary to post on that specific question.

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Originally Posted by LuvMyMaltipoo

It's kind of like if I posted a question asking if it was better to eat chicken nuggets or chicken tenders... and someone starts telling me how digusting I am for eating meat. I didn't ask for that opinion, although its a valid one, it isn't necessary to post on that specific question.

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A more accurate description would be you asking the question about chicken nuggets or chicken tenders and someone responded that the chicken tenders of Joes grill were the best because he knows what he is doing with chicken tenders. But then someone who had watched a news report on Joes grill being fined for having roaches in their chicken tenders making the comment that Joes got fined and they disagreed with the statement about Joes grill knowing what he is doing with chicken tenders.

Then you could go off on them because you didn't ask anything about roaches or fines.

MrPippin

LOL, I'll agree with that.

I haven't personally received money in reference to any food I have prescribed or otherwise suggested to any of my patients. After 17 years in practice you see what diet is more effective than others. Im directing this at specific medical conditions, that require key ingredients to dodge, or combat stuff like nutritional management of cats with Calcium Oxalate Related Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease (FLUTD) I know 2 different brands that work great using oxalate inhibiters. This diet in any brand is expensive and is becoming more common for owners to request the surgical correction called perineal urethrostomy. This surgery is expensive atho some view long term cost advantages over endless pricey prescription diet. Its in my view a disservice to the pet and owner not informing them the cause of his inability to urinate was a result of his diet. After very close observation of urine output while the new diet starts to work, most cases have little concerns of urinary blockage again. I don't get paid by food companies to insure they profit from the cat who can't pee. I became a vet because I love animals and what makes them tick. Certainly wasn't to become rich. Ten years in practice before my student loans were paid off. Lol Lastly, I am ridiculously consumed in new procedures and technology to provide pets and there owners "human quality" health care. If one day an owner tells me barf is the diet used, I will ask them all about it to expand my little pea brain. I don't think I am closed minded at all towards barf. Its just not a diet with earth shattering results that has caused a mad rush to obtain. Ultimately that represents to me an eye catching name is basically all the diet offers. I am not going to talk potential barf feeders from tryng it, maybe there dog will love it. I like anchovies on my pizza, an many would say that's barf! What ever the pet may need as life surviving essentials I am going to help the owners locate regardless of brand. Jake my heeler is always with me, school, the ER, and even local clinics where I do relief work. He eats what ever is supplied at the given location at dinner time. Rarely has GI issues until floridas lovebug season, stupid dog eats um. Now Im hungry. :) Not for lovebugs though.

MrPip I love the name cracks me up.

Doc I hope I didn't sound like I was saying you were making a profit on the food. I was referring to the food companies paying for parts of some students education. I know they have reps that come out and talk to vets and some vets carry these diets in their clinics. But I don't doubt for a minute your commitment to the animals. Although if you are at a University and are in Florida then we would probably not get along at football games. Sorry but I grew up in Athens, GA and hate the Gators! I work closely with Vets from several local hospitals and clinics. Most of them recommend me to their patients for training and sometimes boarding when they are over crowded. Again if I sounded like I was questioning your motives I apologize. I do however question the drug companies and commercial dog food companies as I believe they put profits above everything else.
I actually had this user name long before the Lord of the Rings movies came out. I was just looking for something I didn't have to keep changing because someone else already had it.:)

If the personal insults and comments continue then this thread WILL be closed.

Labman has stated this thread as an open forum to discuss the realative merits of various forms of dog feeding.

Its all good, you make me laugh even if you are a bulldog fan! I didn't take offence to any thing you said, you looked like you were on a mission and I just laughed! Secretly I was wondering how I could get paid regarding pet food. Then it shifted towards leaving my students and I couldn't have that. Where else can you go to work with your dog, not know what trauma or species will appear, show some cool kids how to put dogs and cats back together with purple string and needles while getting paid for it?