I agree with talaniman as well. I was including restitution within a full apology. What constitutes restitution would depend on how exactly how your wife most feels she's been hurt. You need to fully listen to her in order to find that out.

I'm still bothered by the seeming arrogant tone of your post, as if your wife was just an inconvenient object in your life--an irritable store clerk or similar. I am hoping that you actually still see her as a person like yourself who loved you and may still love you and with whom you share a deep bond, even if that bond has become a source of embarrassment and confusion to you and a source of terrible pain to her.

I know a California attorney who specializes in emotionally charged mediation, who might be able to recommend resources for thinking about this problem. In the long run, whatever you learn in this divorce will be useful to you in your practice, so addressing this effectively can only help you.

From reading your other post you admitted to being gay without your whole marriage and even though you stated you did enjoy sex with your wife at times you also admitted to think of guys while having sex with her. I think you should've ended it a long time ago with this women and should have came cleaned with her a long time ago instead of putting her in this web.

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Originally Posted by asking

I agree with talaniman as well. I was including restitution within a full apology. What constitutes restitution would depend on how exactly how your wife most feels she's been hurt. You need to fully listen to her in order to find that out.

I'm still bothered by the seeming arrogant tone of your post, as if your wife was just an inconvenient object in your life--an irritable store clerk or similar. I am hoping that you actually still see her as a person like yourself who loved you and may still love you and with whom you share a deep bond, even if that bond has become a source of embarrassment and confusion to you and a source of terrible pain to her.

I know a California attorney who specializes in emotionally charged mediation, who might be able to recommend resources for thinking about this problem. In the long run, whatever you learn in this divorce will be useful to you in your practice, so addressing this effectively can only help you.

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Yes, thank you for your comments and the same to the others.

This is a very emotionally charged situation - unusually so- and that makes it all the more difficult. I've seen many people go through divorces for all sorts of reasons but this tops the list in terms of the emotional upheaval. It's almost off the scale.

This is a good example of how the closet hurts everyone.

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Originally Posted by asking

I think since you lied to her at so many levels, she feels betrayed. Yes, I think you owe her an apology. It would be more than "sorry" though. YOu should acknowledge how your actions have affected her, express genuine regret and offer to make restitution. You should also take time to listen to her when she's angry, hear her out and acknowledge her feelings of disappointment and betrayal.

The way you describe events in your post it almost sounds like you think she has no right to feel angry and upset about the way her marriage has turned out. If that's how you are talking to her, it's not surprising she's angry.

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I couldn't agree because I have to spread more rep but that's exactly what I was going to say. You lied to her for what sounds like a long time and you asked if you should say "sorry?" That seems like a given.

Yes, the closet hurts a lot of people besides those in it. I agree. Congratulations on being out. That's a big step and I appreciate the difficulty of that move, especially considering your marriage. But, to turn this back around, it wasn't an inanimate object (the closet) that hurt your wife. It was you. And I think you need to come to terms with that.

I just wanted to add here that a true apology is not possible until you have accepted that you did something wrong. After you grapple with that, you can make it better.

Consider reading Gary Chapman's book on apology, ignoring the religious material if that is not your thing.

I also thought this was interesting and might be useful to you.
http://www.mediate.com/articles/ebarker1.cfm

I want to be clear, as the issue is not your sexual preference, its breaking your word, in such a devastating way. Those were your choices for whatever reasons, so the consequences are yours also.

I really hope you finally put the welfare, and care of your ex wife, and family, above anything else for now, as being selfish, dishonest, is at the root cause of this whole situation.

Trust me, your actions will have LONG-TERM effects on your whole family, and there needs cannot be dismissed.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I want to be clear, as the issue is not your sexual preference, its breaking your word, in such a devastating way. Those were your choices for whatever reasons, so the consequences are yours also.

I really hope you finally put the welfare, and care of your ex wife, and family, above anything else for now, as being selfish, dishonest, is at the root cause of this whole situation.

Trust me, your actions will have LONG-TERM effects on your whole family, and there needs cannot be dismissed.

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Without trying to sound cold, my initial reaction was "what's the big deal, people get divorced all the time for all sorts of reasons; after all, over 50% of marriages fail anyway?" But yes, there's maybe much more too it than that. As an earlier poster said, this is a great sense of embarrassment for me on a personal level. I really hate telling people (in person that is) that I was once married.

Your lack of empathy underscores your putting yourself, and your needs first, above all else.

The big deal here is that you deceived your wife, and were dishonest, with her, and yourself.

You have destroyed her hopes, and dreams, as well as the security of your family, and broken the promises you made. Where is the remorse, or even acknowledge the devastation you have caused?

You are not a MAN of honor, or responsibility. It means nothing to you, so why are you here, and what do you really want?

I hope its not sympathy your seeking, as you will get NONE.

Crawl back in your closet, please. Stay until you can at least be a better human!

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Your lack of empathy underscores your putting yourself, and your needs first, above all else.

The big deal here is that you deceived your wife, and were dishonest, with her, and yourself.

You have destroyed her hopes, and dreams, as well as the security of your family, and broken the promises you made. Where is the remorse, or even acknowledge the devastation you have caused?

You are not a MAN of honor, or responsibility. It means nothing to you, so why are you here, and what do you really want?

I hope its not sympathy your seeking, as you will get NONE.

Crawl back in your closet, please. Stay until you can at least be a better human!

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I do understand why you're upset with him, but I think that the fact that he's even here and asking himself questions means he deserves a little bit of credit. I was also concerned about part of the attitude I perceived in his first post. The words that came to me were "almost giddy." there's no question that it was very wrong of him to deceive his wife (and himself), but I think that his last responses have suggested that he's willing to listen to what has been said here and that he has conceded at least part of his wrong doing. Handling this in real life is a completely different story, but I am an optimist in the end, and I think he's going to have to start somewhere.

I agreed with many of the points you made, but I wish you hadn't said the "closet" thing. It's a little too heavy in the wrong ways, if you know what I mean. I consider myself a gay supporter, and it's too easy to be very sensitive with these kinds of things. In any case, I really imagine all of us have the same intentions for better outcomes all around. Let's hope that things start getting better for everyone involved from this point on.

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Originally Posted by cadillac59

Without trying to sound cold, my initial reaction was "what's the big deal, people get divorced all the time for all sorts of reasons; after all, over 50% of marriages fail anyway?" But yes, there's maybe much more too it than that. As an earlier poster said, this is a great sense of embarrassment for me on a personal level. I really hate telling people (in person that is) that I was once married.

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Why do you feel embrassed that you was married in the past? I know you stated that you didn't what to sound cold but you do. When you have time you should read posts on here from the ex wife side and the affects it has on them when this happens.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Your lack of empathy underscores your putting yourself, and your needs first, above all else.

The big deal here is that you deceived your wife, and were dishonest, with her, and yourself.

You have destroyed her hopes, and dreams, as well as the security of your family, and broken the promises you made. Where is the remorse, or even acknowledge the devastation you have caused?

You are not a MAN of honor, or responsibility. It means nothing to you, so why are you here, and what do you really want?

I hope its not sympathy your seeking, as you will get NONE.

Crawl back in your closet, please. Stay until you can at least be a better human!

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I think you are being a little harsh. This is a very common situation and one that has been going on for centuries (some people call this being on the "down low"). While I do accept responsibility, I also blame this society in which we live. If I had grown up in a society that treated gay people with respect and dignity I may have never been in the closet, or at least not for so long.

When I was really young, in the 80's, being gay was associated with getting AIDS and dying young. There was a considerable amount of homophobia out there then and, to a large extent, there still is today, although things are admittedly better than they have ever been.

So it's not that I am just this terrible rat. I feel like a victim too.

Come on cadillac!

Blaming society is a cop out you are your own man. It may be difficult but if others could do it so could you.

It was these people that had the cojanas to come out that made it easier for you..

Society didn't make you get married or have kids.

You could have stayed in the closet and done whatever you wanted. Noooooooooooo, you chose to involve others.

Get real, and stop the excuses. Victim my azz!!

You have life and BS, all mixed up!

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Society didn't make you get married or have kids.

You could have stayed in the closet and done whatever you wanted. Noooooooooooo, you chose to involve others.

Get real, and stop the excuses. Victim my azz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have life and BS, all mixed up!

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Exactly! You can't blame society for getting married, that was your choice, and you can't blame your soon to be ex-wife for being angry. She has every right.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Society didn't make you get married or have kids.

You could have stayed in the closet and done whatever you wanted. Noooooooooooo, you chose to involve others.

Get real, and stop the excuses. Victim my azz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have life and BS, all mixed up!

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I'm not blaming society totally but look at the way things are and have been. Little boys aren't called names growing up like "you butch little hetero creep" or laughed at for liking girls or dating women. Hell no. Quite the contrary. Wouldn't it be amazing to imagine an anti-hetero society wherein straight people were in the minority and dumped on, where they weren't allowed to get married, where there were expected to be gay from the day they were born. Imagine the reverse of the way society really is! Imagine daytime TV with all gay-oriented themes, where you never saw opposite sex couples kiss or even be portrayed as being in sexual relationships. This is what gay people have had to live with. Imagine going to a doctor and being asked if you were straight because if so it meant you were in a "high risk" group for catching a deadly disease that would kill you... so everyone looked at you funny and put on the rubber gloves. Imagine that sort of a world and you'll appreciate what we (gay people) have had to endure. So yes, I do feel like a victim.

I don't think you need to keep trying to defend yourself. It's not a matter of whether you're gay or straight, it's the fact that you deceived your wife and you children.

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Originally Posted by ZoeMarie

I don't think you need to keep trying to defend yourself. It's not a matter of whether you're gay or straight, it's the fact that you deceived your wife and you children.

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It's not an excuse but an explanation as they say.

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So yes, I do feel like a victim.

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So your solution is to victimize?? Because you're a victim makes it okay to destroy someone else?? Your own family??

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Originally Posted by cadillac59

I'm not blaming society totally but look at the way things are and have been. Little boys aren't called names growing up like "you butch little hetero creep" or laughed at for liking girls or dating women. Hell no. Quite the contrary. Wouldn't it be amazing to imagine an anti-hetero society wherein straight people were in the minority and dumped on, where they weren't allowed to get married, where there were expected to be gay from the day they were born. Imagine the reverse of the way society really is! Imagine daytime TV with all gay-oriented themes, where you never saw opposite sex couples kiss or even be portrayed as being in sexual relationships. This is what gay people have had to live with. Imagine going to a doctor and being asked if you were straight because if so it meant you were in a "high risk" group for catching a deadly disease that would kill you ...so everyone looked at you funny and put on the rubber gloves. Imagine that sort of a world and you'll appreciate what we (gay people) have had to endure. So yes, I do feel like a victim.

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You seem to think you represent the entire gay community, homo relationships are depicted on television and I think in some cases very well. As loving caring equal relationships. You have issues you need to deal with. You are clutching at straws attempting not to look at yourself. Buy a mirror and have a look.

I don't think we should be giving cadillac such a hard time. It WOULD be embarrassing to have to admit to gay friends how deep in the closet one was. Whatever the reasons this happened, he's trying to fix things now, so I think we should focus on how he can best treat his wife, instead of us trying to reproduce her anger. Only she knows exactly how angry she feels or why. Let him listen to her anger, not that of strangers. She is the one who was hurt, and cadillac too, for that matter, not us.