I agree that people see reasons to believe in many things - like the beauty of a flower or a newly born child.

But - this is the thing:

Today on the news there were 5 people killed on the motorway, 4 or 5 people trying to escape the police drove the wrong way down the motorway and had a head on collision with another car. 3 people died out of the "criminal" car. The "innocent" couple driving the other way were both killed. I hear this and it makes me sick. There are millions of other stories like this and they - I'm afraid are the balance to the reasons to believe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StuMegu

I agree that people see reasons to believe in many things - like the beauty of a flower or a newly born child.

But - this is the thing:

Today on the news there were 5 people killed on the motorway, 4 or 5 people trying to escape the police drove the wrong way down the motorway and had a head on collision with another car. 3 people died out of the "criminal" car. The "innocent" couple driving the other way were both killed. I hear this and it makes me sick. There are millions of other stories like this and they - i'm afraid are the balance to the reasons to believe.

---

I view death as one of two ways (as part of my belief).
Either this world is rid of a bad person or the person is rid of this worldly chaos.

And each death for me is a reminder of my mortality.I have lost loved ones too.My father when I was 8,grandparents, friends and even a friends relative who was murdered and the murderer has not been found (well someone was arrested and jailed,but there is nothing that absolutely proves he did it).
I believe each of those I have lost are awaiting a judgement and when they are judged I will be judged too and each of us will receive our due.And the one who murdered will have his due then even if he escapes this worldly punishment.

I believe there is a sort of life but not as we know it now after death. I have no idea if this comes from believing in God or if it comes from the depths of my soul...
This is what is there and I like it!
When I think about those in my life that have died, I like to go outside and look into the stars... a little further up when I see what I want I start spilling my thought and fears to them... I hope I am talking to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by firmbeliever

I view death as one of two ways (as part of my belief).
Either this world is rid of a bad person or the person is rid of this worldly chaos.

And each death for me is a reminder of my mortality.I have lost loved ones too.My father when I was 8,grandparents, friends and even a friends relative who was murdered and the murderer has not been found (well someone was arrested and jailed,but there is nothing that absolutely proves he did it).
I believe each of those I have lost are awaiting a judgement and when they are judged I will be judged too and each of us will recieve our due.And the one who murdered will have his due then even if he escapes this worldly punishment.

---

I respect your opinion of this, but to me these are simply excuses made to comfort the grief and don't push one to believe anything.

Why must the families of these people suffer? Something like this can absolutely crush a remaining family member or friend for the rest of their life. Indeed some will take their own life in grief, yet many religions would cast that person then into hell for taking their own life.

In the motorway incident, God could have easily made the car crash into an embankment and killed only the sinful but he doesn't. You can shout "God works in mysterious ways" but that doesn't solve anything. The balance of people involved all feel worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StuMegu

I respect your opinion of this, but to me these are simply excuses made to comfort the grief and don't push one to believe anything.

Why must the families of these people suffer? something like this can absolutely crush a remaining family member or friend for the rest of their life. Indeed some will take their own life in grief, yet many religions would cast that person then into hell for taking their own life.

In the motorway incident, God could have easily made the car crash into an embankment and killed only the sinful but he doesn't. You can shout "God works in mysterious ways" but that doesn't solve anything. The balance of people involved all feel worse.

---

I can understand your view point.

The thing is when we humans see things we are judging on what we can see,hear or feel,but the almighty sees,hears and knows the hearts of each individual and the situations they are in or the situations they have faced.

He judges not in human views,but He literally sees the Bigger picture.:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by firmbeliever

I can understand your view point.

The thing is when we humans see things we are judging on what we can see,hear or feel,but the almighty sees,hears and knows the hearts of each individual and the situations they are in or the situations they have faced.

He judges not in human views,but He literally sees the Bigger picture.:)

---

So, Firm... you are saying he may know something about these "good" people that we don't? I think that is what I understood, but not quite sure if that is what you meant...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by startover22

So, Firm...you are saying he may know something about these "good" people that we don't? I think that is what i understood, but not quite sure if that is what you meant....

---

Yes,I did mean that.
For us when we live life with our loved ones, there is only so much they will share with us.

So much is left unsaid or undone or never attempted, all these thoughts,wishes,hopes and fears are known to Him.

And with strangers we pass by in our lifetimes, we never know what their lives are like,even if they smile and are dressed well, the Almighty knows what makes their hearts ache or happy.

Or what secrets they have...

I have always thought that to be true... Firm... you are going to get some that agree and not agree... I have to agree, I believe in God, he know more than we do, I just don't know enough to express it. Thank you for a wonderful thought provoking post!

Glad you think so Start.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by firmbeliever

I can understand your view point.

The thing is when we humans see things we are judging on what we can see,hear or feel,but the almighty sees,hears and knows the hearts of each individual and the situations they are in or the situations they have faced.

He judges not in human views,but He literally sees the Bigger picture.:)

---

Yes, this is fine to a believer and I see why it holds sway. But it does nothing to provide a reason to believe as was the original point. I believe that for all the good things that tend to suggest God there are bad things that balance that suggestion to leave a neutral standpoint. You may say good and evil because religious people have to have an answer for why bad things happen but to me it is just balance through large numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StuMegu

Yes, this is fine to a believer and I see why it holds sway. But it does nothing to provide a reason to believe as was the original point. I believe that for all the good things that tend to suggest God there are bad things that balance that suggestion to leave a neutral standpoint. You may say good and evil because religious people have to have an answer for why bad things happen but to me it is just balance through large numbers.

---

I have to ask then... what would be your standpoint?
I ask many times why did God do this... or why has this happened... I am not very religious, I believe there is a higher power in all our lives but I have never been a preacher of the faith. I believe there is no way for us to really know the answer to these questions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by startover22

I have to ask then....what would be your standpoint?
I ask many times why did God do this....or why has this happened....I am not very religious, I believe there is a higher power in all our lives but I have never been a preacher of the faith. I believe there is no way for us to really know the answer to these questions.

---

My standpoint is this - there is no God controlling things so the good and bad things that happen are merely chance or luck. There are kind people and not-so-kind people out there but neither is caused by anything other than genes and circumstances.

We can't explain why one person lives and another dies other than through dumb luck (or lack of it).

When you look at it - the world operates exactly as you would expect if there were no God.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StuMegu

My standpoint is this - there is no God controlling things so the good and bad things that happen are merely chance or luck. There are kind people and not-so-kind people out there but neither is caused by anything other than genes and circumstances.

We can't explain why one person lives and another dies other than through dumb luck (or lack of it).

When you look at it - the world operates exactly as you would expect if there were no God.

---

I just needed to ask,
How would the world operate if there was a God, according to you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by firmbeliever

I was just looking through some of these quotes on death and wondered,
How do you view death?Is it the end or the beginning in some way?

Also what do you believe lies beyond death?

---

Well, it's clearly the end of the physical body. As to whether it is the beginning of something else, or what that something else might be, why is it so hard to admit that we simply don't know? Sure, it's interesting to speculate about it, and I do enjoy hearing the incredible diversity of stories that are out there about what happens next. But I really don't see the necessity to pick one particular story and pretend that I know for sure that it's the only right one. Of course, I do like some of the stories better than others, and if the ones I like best turn out to be true, that'll be great, but until it's my turn to find out, I don't have a problem with admitting that I really don't know yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by startover22

I believe there is no way for us to really know the answer to these questions.

---

Was it hard for you to admit it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by firmbeliever

I just needed to ask,
How would the world operate if there was a God, according to you?

---

Well, there would be no need for any human based justice system (no lawyers hooray!) as divine justice would be evident.

There would be no birth defects as this always affects the innocent.

The strongest and healthiest people would be the ones with the purest souls. An inspiration to others to make themselves well through pure thought and deed?

I'm sure the list would go on but I hope that is enough to give you an idea. It's a difficult world to imagine and it would also depend on the God's will, but you would know when you had done wrong.

As for the world we live in, is total indifference (the current approach) the best way to lead by example?

Quote:
"Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Well, it's clearly the end of the physical body. As to whether it is the beginning of something else, or what that something else might be, why is it so hard to admit that we simply don't know? Sure, it's interesting to speculate about it, and I do enjoy hearing the incredible diversity of stories that are out there about what happens next. But I really don't see the necessity to pick one particular story and pretend that I know for sure that it's the only right one. Of course, I do like some of the stories better than others, and if the ones I like best turn out to be true, that'll be great, but until it's my turn to find out, I don't have a problem with admitting that I really don't know yet."




OG,
About saying I don't know, I admit I do not know many things and there is so much to learn and understand, but about the temporary state of this life and there being a life after death and that I will be judged after I die are certainities I would never doubt.

Will you believe me when I say I know that it is the truth about the Hereafter that my belief teaches?
Though I cannot prove to you it is the truth,but when we die we will know for sure what it is... but will it be too late then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StuMegu

Well, there would be no need for any human based justice system (no lawyers hooray!) as divine justice would be evident.

There would be no birth defects as this always affects the innocent.

The strongest and healthiest people would be the ones with the purest souls. An inspiration to others to make themselves well through pure thought and deed?

I'm sure the list would go on but I hope that is enough to give you an idea. It's a difficult world to imagine and it would also depend on the God's will, but you would know when you had done wrong.

As for the world we live in, is total indifference (the current approach) the best way to lead by example?

---

Thanks for your thoughts, it does give me an idea of how you imagine it.

That is a perfect world scenario a human could come up with:) .

I believe that also sounds like the life in Heaven, where each is pure as can be and there is no worries and no animosity.
Although there is no way we could even imagine how it would be in Heaven, I think what you describe sounds a lot like it.


About the best way to lead by example, I think more like each one being responsible for his deeds good or bad as no one else can carry the burden of another.

About leading by example, I was referring to God's apparent disinterest in keeping things in order down here.

Is that a good example God is making to a parent for example - just ignore your children whilst they fight. Tell them off later when they have finished.
The parents would be locked up if they acted the way God does!

As far as relating my 2 minute thoughts on what a Godly world would be to heaven. I didn't say you couldn't do wrong, just that you would be punished accordingly. I would expect that in heaven you can't actually do anything wrong at all or it wouldn't be heaven would it? I didn't say that all people would live in happines, just the enlightened ones and the bad people would be miserable and in a poor state of health :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StuMegu

About leading by example, I was referring to God's apparent disinterest in keeping things in order down here.

Is that a good example God is making to a parent for example - just ignore your children whilst they fight. Tell them off later when they have finished.
The parents would be locked up if they acted the way God does!

As far as relating my 2 minute thoughts on what a Godly world would be to heaven. I didn't say you couldn't do wrong, just that you would be punished accordingly. I would expect that in heaven you can't actually do anything wrong at all or it wouldn't be heaven would it? I didn't say that all people would live in happines, just the enlightened ones and the bad people would be miserable and in a poor state of health :)

---

God is not disinterested, otherwise He would not have been sending messengers throughout the ages to teach mankind His guidelines,but humans are too attached to this world to follow those guidelines.
So many nations throughout history have rejected messengers and followed their own whims and fancies.

About taking God as an example to follow, He is not human.
Which is why God sent human messengers to show people practically how to follow His guidelines in this life.

About Heaven having people practising wrong, I do not think that will happen:rolleyes:.

I have already explained why I don't accept some bloke or blokeess telling me what to believe.

I think Kanye said it best when he said - "Everybody wants heaven - nobody wants dead"

Why does/did (I don't follow these things closely) the pope travel around in a bullet proof vehicle - doesn't he want to die?

Sorry about that,
I know you did say that you did not believe in following human messengers, but it came out that way because of my faith.

I can't say anything about the Pope as I do not follow him.