[excon]

Hello:

Is it our freedoms?? Is it democracy?? Is it our way of life? Does their religion compel them to kill infidels? Nahhhh. It ain't NONE of those. We been lied to. The terrorists TELL us what it is. We should listen. By the way, it's the same thing I've been telling you.

Yesterday, Faisal Shahzad plead guilty to attempting to detonate a car bomb in Times Square. This Pakistani-American Muslim explained why he transformed from a financial analyst living a law abiding, middle class American life into a terrorist. "If the United States does not get out of Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries controlled by Muslims, we will be attacking U.S.... Americans only care about their people, but they don't care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die".

When the federal Judge presiding over his case asked him why he would be willing to kill civilians who have nothing to do with those actions, he replied, "Well, the people select the government. We consider them all the same".

When the Judge interrupted him to ask whether that includes children who might have been killed by the bomb he planted and whether he first looked around to see if there were children nearby, Shahzad replied, "Well, the drone hits in Afghanistan and Iraq, they don't see children, they don't see anybody. They kill women, children, they kill everybody. It's a war, and in war, they kill people. They're killing all Muslims. I am part of the answer to the U.S. terrorizing the Muslim nations and the Muslim people. And, on behalf of that, I'm avenging the attack."

I don't know why we don't listen.

excon

[tomder55]

"blame America first"

They are the victims we are the evil oppressors of the world .

Don't forget we also collude in the Israeli occupation.

We are far worse than the Taliban and Saddam Hussein.

I expect that type of perspective from a jihadists . I find it harder to understand from an American.

[excon]

They are the victims we are the evil oppressors of the world .

Hello again, tom:

19 Muslims attacked us, and killed 3,000 Americans... We attacked them and killed hundreds of thousands of them. We occupy their countries and fire guided bombs from drones at them. We tortured them, and we captured them from all over the world so that we could cage them in Gitmo and Bagram, with NO trial, and NO charges, FOREVER.

On balance, I'd say, yeah, we ARE the evil oppressors of the world.

It's one thing to argue that we should continue to do these things for geopolitical gain, even it means incurring terrorist attacks and the endless civil liberty abridgments they engender. As amoral as that is, at least it's a cogent thought. But to pretend that terrorism simply occurs in a vacuum, that it's mystifying why it happens, that it has NOTHING to do with OUR actions in the Muslim world, requires a healthy dose of self delusion.

excon

[tomder55]

Spoken like a jihadist propagandist. They were also justified to attack us according to the OBL Fatwah because we defended the holy land against invasion by Saddam and remained there at the request of the recognized rulers of the land ;liberated the Kuwaitis from occupation by the same dictator who had visions of making the Gulf an Iranian lake.
For some good measure we freed oppressed Muslims in the Balkans from ethnic cleansing by Christian Serbs.

When we attacked Afghanistan we freed them from a vicious regime that brutalized the population far worse than you imagine we do. By the way ;why did the Taliban ;the jihadist allies of AQ hate their own people ? Were the Afghani women occupying a foreign land ?

For a decade before 2001 we defended ethnic Kurds and Shia from a ruler who would've ethnically cleansed his nation of all of them if he had his way. Iraq is now ruled by elected representatives of the people .We are not occupying their lands at all.
You presume that force used against an attack should be proportionally . Was that how we fought WWII ? Did we stop killing Japanese after 1500 ? No ;we kept on killing them until they were no longer a threat.

For the record I can easily recite the Japanese greviences against us . In their minds there was merit and a causus belli in attacking us also. I can see the war charges if we tried to execute that war now... We deserve it because we tried to cut off their energy supply ...
We are war criminals for levelling their towns and terrorizing their populations .

So believe we are the evil oppressors because in your looking glass world we are.

[NeedKarma]

So tom, you guys NEVER are in the wrong? 'cause that's kind of what I get from your posts.

[speechlesstx]

I don't know why we don't listen.

To what, the rantings of hate-filled crazed terrorists that think they'll be rewarded with 72 virgins if they blow themselves up and a few others with them? I don't know :rolleyes:

[paraclete]

Ex is right, you don't listen. The problem here is inappropriate response, the we will bomb you back to the stone age attitude, without realising that these people have hardly risen out of the stone age. The jihadists have a seventh century mentality, something we left behind a long time ago, but within that mentality is no compromise, the more you bomb them the harder they become and they see what is happening as religious persecution because for the Muslim there is no difference between religion and life. The way to stop this is disengagement, not revenge. Stop bombing them and stop "helping" them.

[tomder55]

Clete means appeasement and isolation . He'll sing another tune when they are at the gates of Vienna... oops I mean Canaberra

[Catsmine]

Stop bombing them and stop "helping" them.

Oh Pollyanna, do you really think leaving them alone will change their views one whit? You've been reading their propaganda again.

The likeliest outcome of Western disengagement in the Near East will be another Mongol invasion, except this time it will be with yuons and management consultants instead of cavalry and horse-archers.

[tomder55]

Cats great link in your signature .

[paraclete]

Oh Pollyanna, do you really think leaving them alone will change their views one whit? You've been reading their propaganda again.

The likeliest outcome of Western disengagement in the Near East will be another Mongol invasion, except this time it will be with yuons and management consultants instead of cavalry and horse-archers.

I don't seek to change their view, that's your problem, you think everyone should think like you do, should be brought into a glorious capitalist exploitative democracy and work their little heart out for the mighty buck.

There will be no mongol invasion but there might be a chinese invasion. You will not stem it by fighting Taliban in the backwoods of central Asia. There is a lot to be learned from the mongol invasions because they were about trade embargoes and lording it over lesser mortals

[Catsmine]

Cats great link in your signature .

Anything you can do for the Greens can help.

[speechlesstx]

Some Islamic voices in America:

"We must implement Islam as a totality (in which) Allah controls every place... the home, the classroom, the science lab, the halls of Congress." -Imam Amir-Abdel Malik-Ali: Masjid Al Islam mosque, Oakland, CA

"The first principle is that terrorism, and terrorism alone, is the path to liberation. The second principle is that "settlement is decided by the sword." -Imam Fawaz Damra: Former Imam in the Cleveland, Ohio area

"If you don't give us justice. If you don't give us equality. If you don't give us our share of America. If you don't stay out of our way and leave us alone, we're gonna burn America down." -Imam Abdul Alim Musa: Al Masjid mosque, Washington, D.C.

"We must not forget that Allah's rules have to be established in all lands..." -Imam Muzammil Siddiqi: Islamic Society of North America

"Now, all our imams, our public speakers, should be concentrating on militarizing the Muslim public ... Only carrying arms will do this task." -Imam Muhammad Al-Asi: Former Imam at the Washington, D.C. Islamic Center

"A Muslim must try his best to abide by the rulings of Sharia (Islamic law) whenever possible as much as he can. He should not allow himself to be liable to those western laws that contradict the clear-cut Islamic rulings." -Imam Omar Shahin: Tucson, Arizona Islamic Center; President, North American Imams Federation; spokesman for the six 'Flying Imams'

"In time, this so-called democracy will crumble, and there will be nothing. And the only thing left will be Islam." On stoning women: "If Allah says stone them to death ... then you stone them to death, because it's the obedience of Allah and his messenger ... nothing personal." -Imam Siraj Wahhaj: Masjid Al-Taqwa mosque. Brooklyn, N.Y

"Muslims cannot accept the legitimacy of the existing American order, since it is against the orders and ordainments of Allah." -Imam Zaid Shakir: Former Muslim Chaplain at Yale University

"The 9/11 hijackers should be honored as martyrs." -Imam Warith Deen Umar: Former Muslim Chaplain, New York Prisons

Are you listening?

[paraclete]

Are you listening?

I have been listening for a long time, I said in 2001 that Muslims represented a fifth column in any country they had established themselves in, but I was told I was wrong, couldn't happen, they are nice people, etc. You see now, but it is too late, like us you made the mistake of allowing them to immigrate into your country, but you see despite outward appearances they didn't integrate. They held on to their culture and now they are telling you it is you who must change to make way for them.

Totally arrogant. I say send them back to the glorious Ummah from which they come, let them eat sand and flies as is their tradition. Let them take their criminal attitudes of intolerance with them. May a thousand camels, etc, etc

[Aurora_Bell]

I just have one question Ex, what would you suggest we (I say we because our Canadian Soldiers are dying over there too) do?

I don't support this war, but I do support our troops. I don't think we have any business over there, I don't fully understand why we are there. Although I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I am not so stupid to think that there will be an end any time soon. But what would you suggest they do?

[excon]

But what would you suggest they do?

Hello Bella:

Come home.

excon

[Aurora_Bell]

I agree. 100% agree. Do you think that will stop the bombings in America?

[excon]

I agree. 100% agree. do you think that will stop the bombings in America?

Hello again, Bella:

It'll go a long ways toward stopping it. But, there's more to do.

excon

[Aurora_Bell]

And what is that? What else?

[paraclete]

And what is that? What else?

You should know that they probably don't hate canadians or australians but they do hate americans so what the americans have to do is stop interfering in their politics. You can't call an ally corrupt and start telling them how their country should be run. It might be so but it is arrogant to say so. The Afghans don't want the americans to help, they want them to go home. As bad as the Taliban might be they are their neighbours from down the street.

Have you noticed that this current thrust is tied up with local governance and it is delayed because that part isn't in place. These people don't want someone in Kabul telling them what to do anymore than they want BO in Washington telling Kazhai in Kabul what to do. Afghanistan isn't a unified nation. It's tribal. It is a great disrespect to come and push the local chief aside

So the americans go home and stay home and take their mates with them