[paraclete]

The thread on this subject has been closed elsewhere but the authenticity of my original remark remains born out by the facts. I am not being wise in hindsight here but insist that this matter has been mishandled even by those who would presume to lead
Abuse cover-up spreads to Britain
There is no one righteous in this matter, except perhaps one,Tom Doyle, so my comment stands the rot goes all the way to the top. No doubt the members of the RCC will be furious but the issue is not of my making

[tomder55]

All I know is that the Catholic Church in the US has led the way in dealing with this . Since 2002 there has been a no tolerance policy about predatory priests . Bishops are required to comply fully with local secular law.

All I keep on hearing is cases from 25-30 years ago ;where admittedly it was a systematic world wide problem. Is there any new case that someone can point to that says this has been a continuing problem in the last decade ?

Nor do I believe it is uniquely a Catholic problem... although I do think that the problem became systematic in the Catholic Church after the "reforms" and "modernizations " of Vatican II . My answer would start by only ordaining into the Priesthood those who actually believe in what the Church preaches... especially regarding sexual morality .It is this lack of fidelity to vows that led to this crisis in the 1st place.

[paraclete]

Nor do I believe it is uniquely a Catholic problem ....although I do think that the problem became systematic in the Catholic Church after the "reforms" and "modernizations " of Vatican II . My answer would start by only ordaining into the Priesthood those who actually believe in what the Church preaches ...especially regarding sexual morality .It is this lack of fidelity to vows that led to this crisis in the 1st place.

Tom, you are correct the problem is one that is out there is society, but has been exasserbated by the abuses in institutions where it should not happen. It is not just an old problem or a recent problem because the abused become abusers. We can all stand back and say how can this happen, or this is why it happened, but the perpetrators must have had tendencies and knew about it, so they would have lied to follow their chosen predatory path. The problem lies in the protection of these individuals which is a complete abrogation of responsibility and is what the debate is about. It's not about the fact that some or many abuses happened, but in the derelection of duty to the community in the way the problem was dealt with and the fact that those in authority are still in authority with no assumption of responsibility. There is a disconnect with reality here somewhere and unless that is dealt with the institution does not learn.

What we see here is just more of the same and the higher up the tree it goes the more the protection is piled on. If the pope was one of those who protected a pedophile, whether neglegently or inadvisedly he is not fit for the office he holds. People who make those sorts of mistakes in judgement should recognise that more able people should take their place.

American priest Tom Doyle says they should sell the Vatican off to Disney and start again and if an insider holds that opinion then those standing outside can only applaud his candor

[tomder55]

American priest Tom Doyle says they should sell the Vatican off to Disney and start again and if an insider holds that opinion then those standing outside can only applaud his candor

He is small potatoes .I don't understand why he is even being quoted as a credible source.

As I said;the Catholic hierarchy in the US has taken steps to address this .I also suspect Cardinal Ratzinger was at most peripherally involved.

[paraclete]

[QUOTE=tomder55;2312691]

He is small potatoes .I don't understand why he is even being quoted as a credible source.

/QUOTE]

He is a credible source because of his experience in dealing with the victims of abuse and as a voice for reform. Just because he doesn't sit on top of the pile is no reason why he should be ignored.

You have just done what many have done and dismissed out of hand a person who may have experience and a perspective which should be listened to. Why, Because he is a dissenting voice? Because his views are unpopular with the Church? Christ's views were unpopular with the "church" leaders of his day and look where that led. Nothing has changed in two thousand years except the issues. Then it was excessive legalism, now it is flagrant disregard for the law.

[450donn]

Like I said before here is one suggestion that ALL religious organizations should consider for ALL of their leaders in ALL churches.
Pure Desire

[tomder55]

Clete Doyle is a malcontent who lost his job because he clashed with his archbishop over policy unrelated to sexual abuse. That being said ,I admit that he was one of the 1st who shed a light on the problem .But a$$holes like Christopher Hitchens are using him and his words in ways he wouldn't approve. .
There are problems with the Pope bash going on... Mostly centered on what people mistakely think was his authority .
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that Cardinal Ratzinger led did not have jurisdiction for pedophile priests until 2001. So it is not credible that he was covering up . Father Stephen Kiesle, a California priest who had been accused of molesting boys asked to be released from the priesthood. Oakland's Bishop John Cummins supported the application.The request for laicization was not denied. In 1987, the Vatican approved Kiesle's dismissal from the priesthood.Bishop Cummins placed Kiesle on an extended leave of absence long before the application for laicization was entered.He was therefore in no position to continue he abuses. If Kiesle had been defrocked in 1985 instead of 1987, he would have remained at large, due to a light sentence from the California courts. He remained at large but was not engaged in parish ministry and had no special access to children.
The Vatican covered nothing up . The California courts destroyed the evidence long before it reached the Vatican.

Trust me on this ;this Pope was no fan of the Vatican II reforms that lowered standards permitting predatory priests in the ranks .

[paraclete]

Clete Doyle is a malcontent There are problems with the Pope bash going on....Mostly centered on what people mistakely think was his authority .
.

Tom the ground swell is growing you can ignore it just as the RCC is doing but ultimately the truth will win
Priest calls for pope's resignation - CNN.com

[tomder55]

Ignore it ? I have been ahead of the curve for most of a decade. I joined the most infleuntial laity organization to take on the American hierarchy even though their overall liberal agenda goes way beyond the sexual abuse issues.
What I say is the truth about the American Catholic church .The reforms the British press demand have been in place for 8 years here .When they get over this feeding frenzy about taking out the Pope you will see that the church is not the same one that let these outrages occure but is under a conservative Pope who is the best hope for dealing with this .

[paraclete]

ignore it ? I have been ahead of the curve for most of a decade. I joined the most infleuntial laity organization to take on the American heirarchy even though their overall liberal agenda goes way beyond the sexual abuse issues.
What I say is the truth about the American Catholic church .The reforms the British press demand have been in place for 8 years here .When they get over this feeding frenzy about taking out the Pope you will see that the church is not the same one that let these outrages occure but is under a conservative Pope who is the best hope for dealing with this .

You speak as though this were purely an american problem and as though the american solution has fixed the problem. This is a far greater problem and more endemic in the Church than could have been imagined. It is in fact a centuries old problem and the failure of the Church to deal with it has brought us to where we are today. The fact is the RCC doesn't have a zero tolerance policy to child molestation. I'm not sure what that says, does it say there is an acceptable level of child molestation?
Pope Vows To Get Church Pedophilia Down To Acceptable Levels - IGN Boards