“My view is now that we have abortion where everyone wanted it from a legal standpoint, the states will determine by vote or legislation, or perhaps both. And whatever they decide must be the law of the land. In this case, the law of the state,” (Trump on Truth Social)


He will take hits from both sides over this. But I tend to agree with him. Since Roe Repubs have argued that abortion should be decided at the state level. It took 50 years to get that done.

In our lifetime there will never be a national consensus. I think it is important to look at what has been accomplished. Now it is not a matter of if a human life is being killed . The argument over when abortions should be legal is a question of when a human can be killed. Even states with pro-life policies have it legal . Here in SC as an example the law now says it is legal at 6 weeks or less.

The question of when a fetus is a person with protected rights will not be settled in our lifetime. And it is an almost certainty that nationally there will never be anything close to a consensus . So IF a national law was passed ;it will be just like Roe where a good percentage of the nation will feel the law is unjust.

I would like to see no abortions except for in rare cases of health or viability .But that is not going to happen

You will read how Trump is betraying his base . But Trump taking a moderate position is a Dem nightmare. They can paint him ;right or wrong, as extreme on some other issues. But they were counting on him being the extremist on abortion who ended Roe. Well yeah . He is most responsible for ending Roe by tipping the balance at SCOTUS . But his position on abortion is hardly extremist and in my view a stroke of genius .

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Now it is not a matter of if a human life is being killed . The argument over when abortions should be legal is a question of when a human can be killed.

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Or more to the point, when an innocent, defenseless human can be killed. If we are indeed now having such a conversation, then we should hang our heads low.

Yeah I guess so but as much as we don't like having their values shoved down our throats ;they feel the same .... and as I pointed out in the past. We pay a political price for it.

If you need a comparison ;think Lincoln and his take on slavery. He personally believed slavery was abdominal. But he took moderate positions in attempts to build a national consensus .

I guess the difference is I have no real feel for Trump's position. He addressed the March for Life and fought hard to get prolife justices in SCOTUS. But I sense he only sees it in terms of politics. So taking a moderate stand is less of a contradiction for him.

Indirectly I think what happens is that his position saves a lot of babies IF he wins . If he takes a hard line and that helps swing the vote to Joe and the Dems maybe take Congress and are able to pass a national pro baby killing law ;what will that serve ?

Men, keep you pants zipped up and abortion won't be much of a problem. Please don't lay all the responsibility for that fetus on the females!

What if God had created males to be pregnant?

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we don't like having their values shoved down our throats ;they feel the same .... and as I pointed out in the past. We pay a political price for it.

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If we were talking about climate change or something else on that level, then I would see your point, but since we are talking about the most basic, cherished right one can imagine, then it becomes a different story. If we won't protect our children, then I think we are dead as a culture.

well then say your post mortems. More than 80% of the population believes some form of abortion should be legal . As I mentioned even in the reddest states they are passing bans after 6 weeks. Trump in the past said 15 weeks

Do you plan on voting for him ? I bet you are because you see no better choice. From strictly a political perspective it is a losing topic to push for complete bans

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well then say your post mortems. More than 80% of the population believes some form of abortion should be legal . As I mentioned even in the reddest states they are passing bans after 6 weeks. Trump in the past said 15 weeks.

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At some point, we have to move in the fear of God. I will not face Him without having stood up for the most vulnerable and innocent. If I refuse to do that, what will I say, that the economy was strong?

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Do you plan on voting for him ? I bet you are because you see no better choice. From strictly a political perspective it is a losing topic to push for complete bans

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I will cast my non-passionate, reluctant vote for Trump. I will send him money in the same manner because, in both cases, I have no other choice. But at times there must be something more important than political perspectives, and yet I do see your point.

WG The fact that a majority of women support killing the unborn is a failure and great stain on the nation . Of that I completely agree with jl , My only concern is that an uncompromising political position is a losing one. GOP loses in Wisconsin and Kansas should tell them that .

Where are the family counselors?

(And do we really need more people in the U.S. with all the migrants coming in?)

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The fact that a majority of women support killing the unborn is a failure and great stain on the nation .

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So very true. Women used to be regarded as the great advocates for children, but no more.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

WG The fact that a majority of women support killing the unborn is a failure and great stain on the nation.

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WHY do they support killing the unborn?

WHY did so many Germans support killing the Jews?

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WHY do they support killing the unborn?

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they see it as a form of contraception in most cases .

Today Arizona's Supreme court said that a 160 year old law banning virtually all abortions in the state is enforceable. I predict this will cost the GOP the state.

Even Kari Lake ;a GOP candidate for the open Senate seat is opposed to the court's decision . I really don't know what she really thinks . She supported the law in the past . But political reality is that position will make her an instant loser .

The Senate is so close .That one seat could change the Senate one way or another . The abortion debate will continue well past our lifetimes. In the meantime the Dems can and have done terrible damage to the country in the last 4 years .

A ballot vote on abortion is expected in Arizona in November . It would protect abortions through the 24th week. This initiative will be used by the Dems to drive registration and turnout ,

Truth be told ;the Dems are rushing to add abortion initiatives to about half the states in time for November

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Originally Posted by tomder55

they see it as a form of contraception in most cases .

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No birth control was used?

If they get born, they'll just shoot each other eventually with repub guns.

or maybe they become the next Jesse Jackson who's mom was raped and pressured to abort ;but decided to birth him.

Or maybe they become the next Steve Jobs ;founder of Apple who's mother did not want him and almost aborted him. Instead he was given up to adoption.

Or maybe they become the next Oprah who's teenage mom was being encouraged to abort but decided to give birth to Oprah.

I could go on and on . Eartha Kitt became a successful singer after her mother who was raped decided to not abort .

Pope JPII's mom was advised not to have him after she had lost a daughter in child birth.

In the great majority of cases it comes down to convenience. It is never convenient to have a child. They always require more in the way of money, time, effort, and commitment.

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WHY do they support killing the unborn?

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I've been considering that question. It seems so odd to ask such a thing. What justification is there for killing another human being?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I've been considering that question. It seems so odd to ask such a thing. What justification is there for killing for another human being?

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I've been pregnant twice. By choice. Planned. My birth control system worked. And why did it?

Unanswered question: What justification is there for killing another human being?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Unanswered question: What justification is there for killing another human being?

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Ask gun owners that question.

But I was asking you (three times!), and you have no answer. That's really too bad. As is frequently the case, when a pro-abortionist sees a question which he/she recognizes as being dangerous, they avoid it, or at least that has been my experience in dealing with them.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

But I was asking you (three times!), and you have no answer. That's really too bad. As is frequently the case, when a pro-abortionist sees a question which he/she recognizes as being dangerous, they avoid it, or at least that has been my experience in dealing with them.

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I am NOT !!!! a pro-abortionist. I told you earlier that, as a professional counselor, I helped pregnant female clients resolve their emotional/mental/social/relationship need for an abortion.

Please stop spitting on me!!!

How strange. I did not say in my post that you were pro-abortion, and yet you felt the description applied to you. Wonder why?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

How strange. I did not say in my post that you were pro-abortion, and yet you felt the description applied to you. Wonder why?

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"No answer" implies I'm all for abortion "YAY abortion!"???

You just won't let go, will you.

You have judged yourself guilty. That was not my decision. And as if to emphasize your assessment, you STILL refuse to answer. Looks like a duck...quacks like a duck?? I'll let you decide.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You have judged yourself guilty. That was not my decision. And as if to emphasize your assessment, you STILL refuse to answer. Looks like a duck...quacks like a duck?? I'll let you decide.

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Again, I say --

I am NOT !!!! a pro-abortionist. I told you earlier that, as a professional counselor, I helped pregnant female clients resolve their emotional/mental/social/relationship need for an abortion.

I can only say that I have never, ever seen you take any kind of principled stand against abortion here, and even now you will not answer a question you evidently view as dangerous to whatever your position is. But I am perfectly happy to accept your claim as being "not something", though I'm not sure what that leaves you in terms of being "pro-something". And I can't imagine why you care one way or the other on abortion since, as you have repeatedly stated, you don't view the unborn as having souls. If unborn children have no souls, then who cares what happens to them?

It's really a very simple and yet profoundly important question. What justification is there for killing another human being?

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Today Arizona's Supreme court said that a 160 year old law banning virtually all abortions in the state is enforceable.

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Constitutional law says that a law is constitutional until SCOTUS says it isn't , In the case of Arizona ;the law was nullified with Roe.

When SCOTUS reversed their Roe decision the Arizona law became the current law since Arizona never attempted to revise it.

All the Arizona Supreme Court was confirm that the old law was again the law of the land. It clearly said that it was up to the Arizona legislature to change the law.

Here is the breakdown in Arizona . The Dems control the Guv ;the Att General and the Repubs control both houses of the legislature.

The Guv is sitting back like the cat that ate the canary. The ball is in the legislature's court. Do they weaken the law by allowing abortion in 6 or 15 weeks ;and look like hypocrites ? Or do they leave the law as is and give the Dems a huge campaign issue ? The Dems are going to exploit the current law for all it is worth.

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There’s no state that political pundits will be watching more closely this fall than Arizona. Voters in one of the nation’s biggest electoral battlegrounds are set to determine the outcome of a tossup Senate race, a pair of close congressional seats, and the winner of its 11 Electoral College votes—and now a recent court ruling has ensured abortion will be an animating issue at the ballot box.

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Arizona Just Became the Most Important State in 2024 Politics | TIME

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Some Arizona Republicans who had previously voted to support abortion restrictions or give legal protection to fetuses abruptly shifted course on Tuesday concerning the 1864 law, and called for a repeal or some other legislative fix.

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Arizona Republicans Thwart Attempts to Repeal 1864 Abortion Ban - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

It's really a very simple and yet profoundly important question. What justification is there for killing another human being?

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NONE!!! So please take away all the guns!

None? So self-defense does not justify taking another person's life?

Guns? How about knives? How about crowbars? How about cars? No more use of dynamite?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

None? So self-defense does not justify taking another person's life?

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Read the newspaper! Watch the news! The number of "casual" shootings/killings are enormous!

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Guns? How about knives? How about crowbars? How about cars? No more use of dynamite?

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Let's start with GUNS! Or will that mess up your masculinity?

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Read the newspaper! Watch the news! The number of "casual" shootings/killings are enormous!

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and you think more abortions will fix that ?

It is the same disregard for the value of life that is the cause of the number of abortions and killings.

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Read the newspaper! Watch the news! The number of "casual" shootings/killings are enormous!

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Since you acknowledge no acceptable reasons to take a human life, then you would have to regard all abortions as wrong and thus be in favor of abortion bans. Strangely, that is not the case with you. Hmmm.

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Let's start with GUNS! Or will that mess up your masculinity?

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You would take guns away from law-abiding people and leave them in the hands of criminals. What a plan.

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It is the same disregard for the value of life that is the cause of the number of abortions and killings.

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Exactly correct. The person who wants to ban guns does not want to ban abortions. That's quite a moral dilemma.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Since you acknowledge no acceptable reasons to take a human life, then you would have to regard all abortions as wrong and thus be in favor of abortion bans. Strangely, that is not the case with you. Hmmm.

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I have said twice this evening I am not a pro-abortionist. Sometimes an abortion is necessary. Do you understand what that means?

An acceptable reason for an abortion would be that the fetus has no head or brain or other vital body part.

So you would be in favor of a law limiting abortions to only those extreme circumstances. Great! We agree. -

Repubs in AZ really want to lose.

While Trump and Kari Lake are trying to minimize the damage of the AZ Supreme Courts ruling ; the Repubs in the legislature blocked an attempt to rewrite the law .

They are probably right in giving it a pause to calm people down. The Dems during the session were acting like a bunch of children harassing Repubs and chanting "shame shame" .

I don't believe it is their intention to let the law stand as is. They should say so unambiguously.

Clueless Joe's campaign has dispatched Kam the Sham to Az. to see what political advantage they can gain on the issue. She had an official VP trip scheduled stop in AZ . They moved up the date and made it a campaign stop so she could hammer away at Trump.
Trump is hoping his statement on state's power will dilute direct attacks on him .

Meanwhile the Dems position is so extreme that they can't even find it in them to protect babies who survive abortion attempts.

Born Alive Act: Senators fail to pass a "born-alive" bill as anti-abortion advocates reignite "late-term" abortion debate - CBS News

There is no moral foundation to the dems' position on abortion. The basic plea is that a woman should be able to control her own body, but that doesn't pass the "real world" test. In the real world, women cannot sell their body organs, they cannot kill their own body, and they cannot use their body to profit from sex (in most places), so there is no unlimited right to do as you please with your body. And that's not to consider that an unborn child is not truly a part of the mother's body. It is completely different genetically and is even the opposite gender half of the time. It is neither a "worthless thief" nor a "thing". It is in every respect a human being.

It all comes down to, "Vote for me, and I'll let you have your unborn child killed."

The whole point of ' my body my choice' has been sadly conceded in this country ;and perhaps all of the western world. The transformer movement proves that .