 |
....is a big FU to half the country that never attended college ;and to many more who went to college and paid off their loans . Who will pay the loans ? The people just mentioned . It sends a message that the government will bail out the irresponsible .
And do so with money it does not have. It's a politician's dream where they can hand out money and benefits without having to increase taxes. Problem is, there is a limit to that, and it's going to be really tough when those, "chickens come home to roost."
the chickens are home . REAL inflation is much higher than the government announces ;and rising and it has nothing to do with covid supply chain disruptions or the price of Putin's war. The 2nd qrt will see economic contraction for the 2nd qtr in a row aka recession. and that is BEFORE the FED puts the real brakes on the economy .
1979 the debt was approaching $1 trillion 33% gdp . Today we are at least $30 trillion. 124%gdp . Reagan and Volker raised interests rates above the inflation rate to put us on a path to recovery . The Fed needs to do that again once they figure out that slow walking the interest rates higher will not get it done .
When that happens the abundance of jobs will also cease .
Then the Clueless clowns will propose more stimulus spending .
The great red wave cannot arrive too soon, though it should be noted that repubs frequently don't have the courage to make sound decisions.
Why are college costs so high?
That's a great question. College costs have become ridiculous. When I was going to renew my certification a few years back, I figured I'd just take a college course and that would have done it. I was shocked at the cost of even an online, 3 hour class. I ended up just getting some free SEMI credits.
One reason costs are so high is that professors who retire may become college/university "vice presidents" and are put on the school's "steering committee". Of course, the college/university pays them well for their "hard work" and "leadership". Thus, tuition costs increase to pay for this wondrous leadership.
I have no doubt that is true, but it seems apparent that cost containment is just not high on anyone's radar, and that makes me wonder why competition amongst the hundreds if not thousands of colleges and universities has not kicked in to promote lower fees. I think the business of the feds guaranteeing college loans through Pell grants has caused students to just not worry about costs. It's a negative in that regard.
And what is a college degree worth nowadays? Too many jobs demand even higher level (master's, Ph.D., Psy.D., etc.) and even more specific degrees. College bound? Get an associate degree at the local community college, or even better, a certificate in a specific trade.
Costs shouldn't be that high . Many students get moved through the system and graduate unprepared even in their chosen career. Often they are not even good apprentice programs . Almost half drop out or don't complete their degree within an expanded 6 year timeframe.Quote:
Why are college costs so high?
Despite that colleges continue to raise tuitions .Federal loan money is handed out like candy . There is no accountability demanded by the government to the institutions that collect these guaranteed loans . These institutions in turn go top heavy in bureaucracy and administrative salaries .
An audit of the University of California is revealing
Bureaucrats And Buildings: The Case For Why College Is So Expensive (forbes.com)Quote:
the President had “amassed substantial reserve funds, used misleading budgeting practices, provided its employees with generous salaries and atypical benefits, and failed to satisfactorily justify its spending on systemwide initiatives.”
The audit took particular aim at the amount of money the system funneled towards administrative expenses. Between fiscal years 2012-13 and 2015-16, the Office of the President’s administrative spending increased by 28%, or $80 million. And 10 executives in the office whose salaries were analyzed by the audit made a total of $3.7 million in FY2014 – $700,000 more than the combined salaries of their highest-paid state employee counterparts.But ballooning administrative costs are not unique to the University of California system. Over the last decades, the higher education world has witnessed a sharp upswing in administrative spending........
“The interesting thing about the administrative bloat in higher education is, literally, nobody knows who all these people are or what they’re doing,” says Todd Zywicki, a law professor at George Mason University and the author of “The Changing of the Guard: The Political Economy of Administrative Bloat in American Higher Education.” Administrative titles at schools, especially large research institutions, can be confusingly vague: Health Promotion Specialist, Student Success Manager and Senior Coordinator, Student Accountability are all positions currently available on higheredjobs.com
There is a cost to doubling the ratio of administrators to educators and the students carry the government checks to the colleges in the hope that getting that paper credential to hang on the wall ;their future is secure;
To be fair to the schools . Government being involved ;as in any business comes with a cost in regulatory compliance as the article notes .
The consumers (students and their parents ) share in the blame too . Normally when you buy a product you base your decisions on receiving fair and adequate value for the dollar you spend . But when the taxpayer is partially funding the product then the true costs aren't apparent .
What is subsidized besides direct education ? The college culture is subsidized . The students then spend about half the time that should be devoted to their education on other school sponsored leisure activities .
The Falling Time Cost of College: Evidence from Half a Century of Time Use Data | The Review of Economics and Statistics | MIT Press
What is the answer then ? The short answer is for the government to STOP guaranteeing these loans . Get the government out of the college loans business altogether . Private lenders would demand more accountability . Colleges would be forced to be more responsible ;to reign in costs ,and to create more affordable choices . Colleges could even privately make an agreement with the students to finance the loan to be paid back based on the percentage of the student's income after graduation. Monthly loan payments are lower when their income is lower at the beginning of their career . Then as their salaries increase ,the loan gets paid back quicker . This is already happening at some institutions
Guaranteed to make it worse is for government to do debt forgiveness with no one being held responsible .
You nailed it, tomder!
I would agree with that. It would also be good for colleges to begin to look more closely at the idea that all areas of study should end up with 120 or so hours for a bachelor's degree. I would argue that a well-designed, three year program for elementary and middle school teachers could have them out and ready for a couple of years of supervised teaching with no problem. But the classes would have to be taught much better than they are now.Quote:
What is the answer then ? The short answer is for the government to STOP guaranteeing these loans . Get the government out of the college loans business altogether . Private lenders would demand more accountability . Colleges would be forced to be more responsible ;to reign in costs ,and to create more affordable choices.
In other words, innovation and getting rid of outdated thinking would work wonders.
not only that, but the interest rates are a joke....Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So I did not go to college . I opted to join the work force . I honed my trade in the shop . I saw an opportunity .I took out a loan for $10,000 + so I could purchase tools and put a down payment on a truck so I could set out on my own. I work 60 hrs a week and am barely getting by.
Now I see that Clueless is planning on forgiving $10,000 of student loans for wastrels who took a major in basket weaving while living a 4 year high on campus . They then went out and found a clerk job that has nothing to do with their major . They are dissatisfied with their work so they are in the process of a Quite Quit .They go through the motions like some Dilbert cartoon character logging onto TikTok watching funny cat videos .
They have a student loan that Clueless plans to pay for out of my taxes . Most of the Dems are on board with this idea and many of them want an even bigger debt forgiveness for student loans .
And here I thought the Dems were about fairness.
(The narrative was fictional .I went to college and worked to pay for my school .I took out a small loan in my last 2 years and paid it off sooner than it was due. Will I ger a retroactive refund ? )
I wish that was the case, but it's much worse in this brave new world of make-believe money.Quote:
They have a student loan that Clueless plans to pay for out of my taxes .
It will have several bad consequences, one of which will be to encourage young people to take on college debt in the confident hope that the liberal dems will want to buy their votes again some day and "forgive" their loans. It will also encourage them to engage in useless and even counter-productive majors such as women's studies, black history, psychology, gender studies, and so forth. And it will continue to fuel the explosive growth of college expenses.Quote:
Most of the Dems are on board with this idea and many of them want an even bigger debt forgiveness for student loans .
The great question will concern whether or not the American people are duped by this obvious political theatre.
Even worse . The loan forgiveness applies to anyone making less than $125,000 a year . The cost in monopoly money ? A minimum of $300 billion and perhaps up to $980 billion . The Penn Wharton Budget Model estimates that 69% and 73% of any debt forgiven would accrue to households that rank in the top 60% of the US’s income distribution.
Student Loan Relief Seen Costing Billions and Favoring Top Earners (yahoo.com)
There is also talk of debt postponement and even higher amounts of forgiveness for people who took Pell grants .
Don't worry about how to pay for it . Increased audits of the fictional small business guy I referenced should take care of it ....maybe a bodega owner or 2 . And if that doesn't do it than the increase in inflation that this will bring will surely pay for it .
To your point ; Former Treasury Sec Larry Summers ;and also former President of Harvard said :
“Student loan debt relief is spending that raises demand and increases inflation,” Summers added. “It consumes resources that could be better used helping those who did not, for whatever reason, have the chance to attend college. It will also tend to be inflationary by raising tuitions.”
Larry Summers: Student debt forgiveness will make inflation worse (nypost.com)
Why are college costs so high in the first place? (To give hefty salaries to the retired profs who have been hired by the college as do-nothing veeps?)
That's really a great question. Another one that should be asked is why are med costs accelerating much faster than other costs. I thought this at least provided part of the answer to the college question.
On a bit of a side note, I can renew my teaching certification by taking two college courses every two years, so I thought I would just do that the year after I retired. I was ASTONISHED at what was being asked for a three hour course in our local comm. college.Quote:
“Student loan debt relief is spending that raises demand and increases inflation,” Summers added. “It consumes resources that could be better used helping those who did not, for whatever reason, have the chance to attend college. It will also tend to be inflationary by raising tuitions.”
And I've said in other threads, beginning in middle school, encourage vocational guidance. One doesn't need a college degree to be successful. We need plumbers and electricians and auto mechanics and network/cable installers and library clerks/pages and other hands-on workers.
One reason and one only ...government guaranteed loans distort the marketQuote:
Why are college costs so high in the first place?
I can't speak for your state, but that is already done in our state. It's a high school course required for graduation called, "College and Career Readiness". Our district also has a vocational center that students can attend while in high school and take classes on a number of different vocational tracks.Quote:
And I've said in other threads, beginning in middle school, encourage vocational guidance
I would imagine that is true in most states, but I don't know that for sure.
Start earlier than high school (even as early as preschool) to help students learn to work with their hands -- art, music, mechanics, putting things together, taking things apart, simple cooking and baking.
Students take art and music classes in elementary school in our state, and there are many opportunities for mechanical and cooking classes. In my own case, I learned how to do electrical wiring and welding while in high school. But like I say, I don't know how things stand in other states. I'm not going to say we could not do a better job, but the demands on schools now are enormous and time is at a premium. You'd have to tell me what you want schools to drop in order to add these other classes.
Well, during the mid-'50s, the school I attended did all these things plus we learned to diagram sentences, had handwriting class, learned the times tables, read through Di*k , Jane, and Spot, memorized the names and locations of waterways and landforms throughout the world, and still had time for recess and lunch.
Uhm...we pretty much get all of that done by sixth grade, including recess and lunch. Just sayin.
But again, if you want to add classes, then you have to identify classes to drop. What would they be?
No dropping is necessary. The "added classes" skills to be taught can be incorporated into existing classes.
Oh? And what areas of study are those classes to drop? You only get so many hours a semester. To put hours into one area, they must be taken from another. I've been there and that's simply how it is.
About 65% of high school kids go on to college, but only 60% of those students ever graduate with a degree. I actually agree with you about the need to expand our vocational offerings, but in order to do that, we will have to dial back some academic expectations. You cannot have your cake and eat it, too.
It'll take more money as well since vocational classes use a lot of equipment and supplies and they don't just give that stuff away.
No dropping of classes. Incorporate cooking/baking/shop/electronics exercises into math classes. Incorporate art/music into geography and history and handwriting classes.
And as I just asked, what do you drop in those math and social studies classes? When you tie up time in math classes to teach cooking/baking, then you are not teaching math. So what math objectives do you want to eliminate? Now you might say that you could use some cooking illustrations to teach measurements. That's fine, but in no way does that teach anyone the true basics of cooking anymore than measuring the length of a welding rod would teach someone how to weld. You have to be realistic with this. You cannot have a Pollyannaish approach. Time is money in school. I cannot teach two things at the same time, so I have to drop one of them. Which objectives do you drop??? Until you can answer that, there is no point in continuing this.
Apparently you've never cooked or baked. Math is an integral part of cooking and baking. And it wouldn't happen during the entire term, but just in occasional math lessons to show how practical and necessary math is in our daily lives. Been there, done that. Works wonderfully well.
One of my teachers in grade school had the class create faux checking accounts and checks and then "go shopping" (at his "store") and pay for items by check, keep track of expenditures, etc. One of the best math experiences I ever had!
Both of those exercises are done routinely in classrooms. They are hardly remarkable. Neither does much of anything to actually expose a student to cooking. Been there and done that about twenty times more often than you. You’re still being pollyannaish. I used to tell teachers frequently that the most valuable and limited asset they had was time. You don’t seem to understand that.
This is a study from the Federal Reserve Bank of NY
sr733.pdf (newyorkfed.org)
It concludes that colleges “more exposed” to changes in federal student aid programs “increased their tuition disproportionately” around these programs. It concluded that loan expansion to students “could have been to their detriment, on net, because of the sizable and off-setting tuition effect.”
US News and World Report spoke of this in 2011 .
The more money the federal government pumps into financial aid, the more money the colleges charge for tuition. Inflation-adjusted tuition and fees have tripled over those same 30 years while aid quadrupled; the aid is going up faster than the tuition. Thanks to the federal government, massive sums of money are available to pay for massive tuitions.
This has nothing to do with costs. According to Neal McCluskey's research at the Cato Institute, it costs roughly $8,000 a year to educate an undergraduate at an average residential college. Yet the average college bill—including room and board—charged at a private four-year university is $37,000, and $16,000 at a public one. For a long time, college tuition has been rising faster than the inflation rate, which certainly has hurt middle-class families. Colleges can raise tuition with impunity because colleges know they'll get paid no matter what.
Why the Government is to Blame for High College Costs (usnews.com)
if anything ,it has gotten worse.
I lay the blame at the feet of the (greedy) colleges and universities.
Once again, the feds spending of borrowed and printed money is a major contributor to inflation.Quote:
The more money the federal government pumps into financial aid, the more money the colleges charge for tuition. Inflation-adjusted tuition and fees have tripled over those same 30 years while aid quadrupled; the aid is going up faster than the tuition. Thanks to the federal government, massive sums of money are available to pay for massive tuitions.
A team effort between the greedy colleges and the dumb federal government.Quote:
I lay the blame at the feet of the (greedy) colleges and universities.
Too true.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Good grief, we have agreed again. What's the world coming to???
The colleges did the logical thing to do. It was not greed . The government increased the value of the space with loans . It was the unintended consequences of good intentions . The number of slots was a given. More loans made for more competition for the slots which increased the value of the slot . Demand inflation exists when there is an excess of demand and supply remains largely static .
The problem is that the value of the degree obtained did not increase . However ;given everything else ;the prospects of the people Clueless is planning on bailing out are better than the ones he will expect to pay for it ..
The value of a degree is, of course, dependent on the degree. Borrow money to get a degree in engineering or medicine and you can pay it back. Borrow money to get a degree in gender studies, women's studies, or any of many other fairly useless area of study and you can get a job waiting tables. It borders on fraud to give out those degrees.
A middle-aged friend is working toward a doctorate in business administration -- so he can start a business.
I would think an MBA would be enough to do that.
Bill Gates, as I remember, never went to college. Hartley Peavey, who built Peavey Electronics from the very beginning, never went to college.
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:00 PM. |