Can a person who supports LGBTQ be opposed to transgender women competing in women's sports?
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Can a person who supports LGBTQ be opposed to transgender women competing in women's sports?
Sure why not.
What are the reasons to be opposed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
That a mind change does not change the body that the person was born with. The musculature, the skeletal structure, the stamina, range of power, etc. is still the same and far more powerful than the average woman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Even after a year of hormone therapy, the male characteristics, while somewhat diminished, still far outperform the women.
In my mind, these things add up to an unfair advantage.
I FB messaged with a transgender woman friend who said this:
Usually with parental support transitioning can start before puberty. No surgeries until 18 though. Have to give time for natural development to occur on hormones. Plus the puberty-to-18 span gives a natural delay for thought and therapy. At 18 they just need two letters from independent therapists and schedule consults.
Officially it's this list:
Gender Therapist.
Hormone clearance letter.
Hormones. (for FtM, reduce muscle mass, strength)
Living full-time 24/7/365.
Name/gender changes.
Changes on utilities and banking.
Changes on insurance. I got a female discount on car insurance because males are high risk. https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/e...1/16/1f601.png
First surgery letter good for orchie.
Second therapist.
Second surgery letter.
Picking a surgeon.
Surgical consult.
Booking surgery.
New vulva!!!!!
Absolutely no surgeries allowed until one full year on hormones. Entire transition process takes 4-6 years or more. Is very expensive overall.
"transitioning" is mutilation
Nope. For MtF, it's fixing what Mother Nature or the pregnant woman misused regarding estrogen. Genital Confirmation Surgery (GCS) by a fully informed adult is the final part of the MtF trans process.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Another early-in-transitioning friend (who is living and of course dressing as female) told me recently:
"Every time I go out I’m just further amazed at how wonderful I feel. This is so absolutely who I am. OK raccoons occasional stare but I really don’t care about that. Because I know who I really am now."
That has nothing to do with the question. The question was whether transgendering from male to female gives an unfair advantage to the person who transgendered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I'm sorry you went through all that trouble without referring to or answering the question.
Are you able to answer it now?
Oh, I thought the fun, even excitement, of this site is to switch gears mid-thread!Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
All that I wrote was preface to this addition from my trans friend, speaking to the question asked:
"Total BS that MtFs have an advantage in sports! I have lost 60% muscle. If a trans female starts hormones at 12 or 13, there is no difference in body development between born male and cis girl with those receiving hormones. At 6 months of hormone therapy, sex drive is gone, most likely sterile, loss of muscle, etc."
haha - can't argue that....Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Why the preface? The added part was far more direct, although still not speaking to the question.Quote:
All that I wrote was preface to this addition from my trans friend, speaking to the question asked:
Your trans friend is demonstrably wrong. To you and to her, I would suggest you can easily google the facts on transgender from male to female and how the newly gendered female is far superior to the women.Quote:
"Total BS that MtFs have an advantage in sports! I have lost 60% musclea trans fem. If ale starts hormones at 12 or 13, there is no difference in body development between born male and cis girl. At 6 months of hormone therapy, sex drive is gone, most likely sterile, loss of muscle, etc."
I understand your friend is speaking from her subjective feelings, but that is not science nor representative of the facts. For example, "If a trans female starts hormones at 12 or 13, there is no difference in body development between born male and cis girl." If this is an argument for male-to-female transgenders not being superior in sports, in fails dismally by not addressing the question.
Another: "At 6 months of hormone therapy, sex drive is gone, most likely sterile, loss of muscle, etc." Again, this does not address the question.
All you need to see are the results . Transformer Lia Thomas consistently defeats women competition and breaks records doing it . Coming in 2nd is the new 1st place in woman's swimming . This is Title IX down the toilet .and it make lie to all the NCAA efforts to eliminate PEDs from the sport .Transformers should have their own category if they are really looking for a politically correct woke solution .
It's transgender, not transformer. Other than that, I agree with what you wrote.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
definitely transformer
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOIhbELX...jpg&name=large
There's no need to insult her with nasty remarks.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
HE spent 21 years as a man . He still has male organs .
That's the last thing to go. Now, report on her testosterone and progesterone and estrogen levels and how long she has been taking the latter two.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
From Wikipedia --
In one notable race during January 2022 at a meet against UPenn's Ivy league rival Yale, Thomas finished 6th place in the 100m freestyle race, losing to four cisgender women and Iszac Henig, a transgender man (transitioning without hormone therapy).
Just because she still has male sex organs, she's a cheat??? You apprently didn't read my earlier response to you and are also grossly uninformed. You're a very intelligent guy, tomder; I know that from the Q&A sites (askme and answerway, maybe sploofus) we've been on together for years. (I used another name then.) Please do some honest research on transgender and what happens when and how. Thanks!
Unfortunately, WG, yes, she's a cheat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Not because she still has male sex organs, but because her body retains male characteristics (noted earlier) that prove her far more physically powerful than women.
The number of SOME women that may be able to defeat her athletically from time to time is infinitesimally small and only goes to prove the rule. The typical woman will never be able to do so.
Male-to-female transgenders will always have a physical advantage in sports rendering the sport unfair to women.
Speaking of the very intelligent, I would apply that to you also, and hope that you reconsider your position.
Sex organs don't make the gender, the male or the female. It's the HORMONES (produces by those sex organs) that do that. She's been doing female hormone therapy -- progesterone and estrogen -- probably for several years. Her testosterone has been greatly reduced. She still needs time taking female hormones, and also maybe for voice coaching, possibly face sculpting (if desired), allowing hair to grow out, and, near the end of probably six years, Genital Reassignment Surgery (GRS).Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
"Under the standards of care adopted by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), the first step usually is meeting with a mental health professional for a diagnosis and psychotherapy. A diagnosis of gender identity disorder or gender dysphoria and a letter of recommendation from the therapist allows a person to begin hormone therapy with a doctor. That is usually followed by a period of living publicly as a member of the opposite sex and, finally, surgery to alter the genitalia and other body parts."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...surgery-works/
Ha, ha, a "typical woman" on any sports teams. Apparently, you don't understand what coaches want on their teams. (I'm a typical woman who was told no by more than one coach.) A typical woman (whatever that is -- weak as a kitten?) isn't it. And she must have passed the gender test to be on that team.Quote:
The number of SOME women that may be able to defeat her athletically from time to time is infinitesimally small and only goes to prove the rule. The typical woman will never be able to do so.
Untrue.Quote:
Male-to-female transgenders will always have a physical advantage in sports rendering the sport unfair to women.
Nope. Please consult with your favorite librarian for more information.Quote:
Speaking of the very intelligent, I would apply that to you also, and suggest that you reconsider your position.
I was responding to YOUR comment on sex organs!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
The issue is transgenders competing in women's sports. Not transgendering.Quote:
t's the HORMONES that do that. She's been doing hormone therapy -- progesterone and estrogen, probably for years. Her testosterone has been greatly reduced. She still needs time taking female hormones, and also maybe for voice coaching, possibly face sculpting, if desired, allowing hair to grow out, and, near the end of probably six years, Genital Reassignment Surgery (GRS).
PLEASE stay on track. Your lengthy links/quotes do not apply to male-to-female transgenders competing with women in sports.Quote:
"Under the standards of care adopted by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), the first step usually is meeting with a mental health professional for a diagnosis and psychotherapy. A diagnosis of gender identity disorder or gender dysphoria and a letter of recommendation from the therapist allows a person to begin hormone therapy with a doctor. That is usually followed by a period of living publicly as a member of the opposite sex and, finally, surgery to alter the genitalia and other body parts."
I'm trying to keep this a serious discussion, but you are making it difficult. The nastiness is unnecessary. The topic is male-to-female transgenders competing with women in sports. It's a simple enough topic. I'm not asking about the processes or self-identities of transgenders - I've said that repeatedly now trying to keep you on track, but I seem to be failing.Quote:
Ha, ha, a "typical woman" on any sports teams. Apparently, you don't understand what coaches want on their teams. A typical woman (whatever that is -- weak as a kitten?) isn't it. And she must have passed the gender test to be on that team.
Untrue.
It gives me great sadness to say I no longer have a favorite librarian. The one I did have is gone. If there's a chance she should return, I would welcome her back.Quote:
Nope. Please consult your favorite librarian for more information.
I have no clue what you're complaining about, Athos.
She is well on her way to being female, thanks to hormone therapy.
Nastiness? That wasn't my intent. Read it over. I don't see nastiness in that.
Avoiding the direct answer re women's sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Quote:
Nastiness? That wasn't my intent. Read it over. I don't see nastiness in that.
Laughing at me is nasty.Quote:
Ha, ha, a "typical woman" on any sports teams.
A gratuitous comment criticizing my lack of understanding. To be accurate, I've played on enough teams to know very well what coaches want.Quote:
Apparently, you don't understand what coaches want on their teams.
Not nice - nasty - implying what I never said or even hinted at.Quote:
A typical woman - (whatever that is -- weak as a kitten?) isn't it.
I don't know what a gender test is. Don't explain - I'll take your word for it. But, again, that is not the issue.Quote:
And she must have passed the gender test to be on that team.
I was not being mean. I even said I'm a typical woman who has been turned down by coaches because I wasn't "right" for some reason. Typical women are too often dissed as wusses -- "She's such a typical woman!"
Do you know what coaches of women's teams want? I had forgotten to add that adjective, women's. I did not intend to criticize you. I thought that adjective would be understood because we're talking about women and sports.
I assume they want what any coach wants regardless of team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No, not exactly. The topic is male-to-female transgenders competing unfairly on women's sports teams.Quote:
.......... because we're talking about women and sports.
If the preliminary hormone testing and other exams are done correctly, fairly, and accurately, a MtF transgender can be eligible for a women's sports team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
That's not the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Can a MtF trans compete fairly with women?
Yes!!!! And I have given you the reasons why she can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
No, you gave me no reasons. You gave me a lot of info re transgendering, but no reasons a MtF trans can compete fairly in women's sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
OTOH, I gave you many reasons why they can't. I will restate some of them here:
1. Skeletal structure is denser and stronger than women.
2. Musculature is denser and larger than women.
3. Stamina is greater based on larger lung capacity than women.
4. Males are larger than women in height and weight.
Some less than obvious ones:
1. Men have a higher metabolism which lets them burn more calories gaining more strength. Women have slower metabolism which coverts food to greater proportions of body fat necessary to withstand cold and to provide nourishment to babies.
MtF trans retain these male characteristics although sometime in diminished amounts especially after extensive hormone therapy.
There is much more but I do not need to create a library here on all the factors. We can each research the issue, keying on the issue of sports. If you can find data supporting your position I will promise to read it.
As one commenter so eloquently put, you cannot drive a truck in a bicycle race...
My MtF trans friend said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
"There is no strength advantage! If anything it's a disadvantage. We have larger bones and the muscle loss kills us. Like toting a #50 feed bag 24/7."
FACT: Trans athletes do not have an unfair advantage in sports.
MYTH: Trans athletes’ physiological characteristics provide an unfair advantage over cis athletes.
Women and girls who are trans face discrimination and violence that makes it difficult to even stay in school. According to the U.S. Trans Survey, 22 percent of trans women who were perceived as trans in school were harassed so badly they had to leave school because of it. Another 10 percent were kicked out of school. The idea that women and girls have an advantage because they are trans ignores the actual conditions of their lives.
Trans athletes vary in athletic ability just like cisgender athletes. “One high jumper could be taller and have longer legs than another, but the other could have perfect form, and then do better,” explains Andraya Yearwood, a student track athlete and ACLU client. “One sprinter could have parents who spend so much money on personal training for their child, which in turn, would cause that child to run faster,” she adds. In Connecticut, where cisgender girl runners have tried to block Andraya from participating in the sport she loves, the very same cis girls who have claimed that trans athletes have an “unfair” advantage have consistently performed as well as or better than transgender competitors.
“A person’s genetic make-up and internal and external reproductive anatomy are not useful indicators of athletic performance,”according to Dr. Joshua D. Safer. “For a trans woman athlete who meets NCAA standards, “there is no inherent reason why her physiological characteristics related to athletic performance should be treated differently from the physiological characteristics of a non-transgender woman.”
https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-righ...etes-debunked/
Gotta agree with Athos on this one. Other than one off the cuff comment by a friend of yours, there was very little compelling evidence.
Seems like a really foolish statement, easily disproven by the fact that men routinely outperform women in athletic endeavors. I remember hearing a story about a female athlete (maybe Jackie Joyner Kersee??) one time. She had won the Olympic 400 meter run and held the women's world record. At that same time, there were literally dozens of high school boys with better times than her world record.Quote:
“A person’s genetic make-up and internal and external reproductive anatomy are not useful indicators of athletic performance,”according to Dr. Joshua D. Safer.
She also said:
"Ask them if real men lactate, because I sure do. I have lost 60% muscle mass too. I used to pick up #500 poles like my son Jason did when we built a fence. I couldn't even budge it.
Our muscle turns to fat plus our metabolism goes away down. We walk past a Mrs. Fields and gain ten pounds."
Still just an anecdotal account.
Lots more accounts are available from others. Plus, she, when male, worked EMS/Fire/Police, was a private military contractor at an Air Force base, flew helicopters and knows a great deal about aviation.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
AND none of us are true binaries. That doesn't exist.
Why have "men's" teams and "women's" teams? Why can't teams be made up of people, regardless of gender, who qualify?
So he/she knows about aviation? How does that matter?
Still just anecdotal.
Just to include that she had a very full and interesting life as a male. And that male gave all that up to be a ... uh ... woman??? Hmm... wonder why.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
All of which has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. Many people choose to "switch" genders and then give it up to "switch" back to what they really are. But that also has nothing to do with the topic.
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