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So Oregon announces that reading, writing, and math are no longer important. But they will, as I understand it, enforce new testing centered around cell phone proficiency and transgender pronouns.Quote:
Oregon Gov. Kate Brown privately signed a bill last month ending the requirement for high school students to prove proficiency in reading, writing, and arithmetic before graduation.
https://news.yahoo.com/oregon-govern...154100667.html
shocking !! What are tax payers paying for if there are no minimal standards ? Reading and math to be replaced with making Molotov cocktails and umbrella tip sharpening .....basic skills . Kind of surprising . You can't teach Communism or the 1619 project curriculum without basic reading skills ..... or are all lessons in video and crayon drawings ?
Pink Floyd --- We Don't Need No Education - YouTube
Kids have mobile phones and youtube these have replaced schooling for the great unwashed
And I've been hoping schools will add courses in penmanship, art and music appreciation, hands-on art and music, first aid, personal finances, et al.
Then you'll be happy to know that Mississippi offers all of those courses. The school I was in was a relatively small school and we taught them all.
Grade schools AND high schools? Required or electives?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Depends on the course you're referring to.
Here's the problem schools face. Fifty years ago, schools met for about 7 hours a day, 180 or so days a year. Now schools still meet for about 7 hours a day, 180 or so days a year, but the demands made on school curricula increases and varies practically every year. Everyone has their pet projects. Some are understandable such as computer courses. There has been an on-going emphasis on increased academic rigor for several decades now. I graduated in 71 (1971, not 1871) with 18.5 credits. In our state now you cannot graduate with fewer than, if I remember correctly, 24 credits. Kids are taking algebra 1 in 8th grade to get a jump on grad requirements. So there is an ever increasing demand on time, but time is still 7 hours, 180 days. The powers that be add demands but only rarely remove anything. Special ed requirements are incredibly more complex than even thirty years ago. Many more sports are played and the arts are more emphasized. That's all fine and good, but at some point some of the supposed smart reformers need to wake up and realize that schools are pretty well saturated. There is no more money to throw at the problem. If you want to add things, tell me what you want to take away to free up resources for all of those new courses. Or point out time and resources that are presently being wasted that could be redirected. I can tell you that in our state, that would be very hard to do.
And none of that, of course, excuses the actions being taken by the liberal dems in Oregon to not just lower, but even remove academic standards. It's inexcusable.
What would the daily schedule be for, say, a fourth grader?
Students at my old school spent 50 minutes in PE three times a week. They also spend 50 minutes in art once a week and 50 minutes in music once a week. This was K-4. Cursive writing is a required course in elem. The rest of the day was packed with math, language, science, social studies, lunch, breaktime, library once a week for 50 minutes, remedial work in math and reading, computer work, remedial work for dyslexic kids, talented and gifted courses, special ed courses, and all of that "et al" that you mentioned earlier. By the end of the day, students and teachers alike are tired. They have worked hard. It's largely pleasant, even enjoyable, but still work.
You sure do spend a lot of time in school and yet you learn so little
Yet another unbiased, non-bitter remark from the little Pacific country. Turns out that, as usual, you have your own set of problems.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-...s/4422532?nw=0Quote:
Australian school children are well behind a host of other countries when it comes to reading, mathematics and science, according to a new report.
The Progress in International Reading Literacy Study has revealed that a quarter of Australia's year 4 students failed to meet the minimum standard in reading for their age.
Australia ranked 27th out of 48 countries in reading, with its mean score similar to that recorded by New Zealand, Poland and Lithuania.
27th out of 48th. Yeah, that's really great.
What about college vs. vocational education?
Once again JL is focused on the wrong statistic you should research drop out rates your country has a high drop out rate, it is useless keeping kids at school longer to teach them things that many will never use
What are several good ways to keep kids in school, to make learning worthwhile to them and maybe even fun?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
It’s the wrong stat because it shows how your Ed system is underperforming?
Our education system doesn't have dropouts
Oh? Then what do you call the 23% who DON'T graduate from college?
And how do you explain this if there are no dropouts???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropping_outQuote:
Drop out rates vary throughout different locations in Australia. Students that attend school in remote communities have a higher chance of not completing year 12 (56.6%), whereas students that come from a wealthy background share an average completion rate of 90%.[11] These remote schooling programs serve primarily indigenous students. Indigenous students to have lower rates of completion: the gap between indigenous and non-indigenous year 12 graduates is over 40 percentage points. As a result of this substantial difference, lower socioeconomic students who drop out are considered at-risk-students and are ultimately prone to unemployment, incarceration, low-paying employment and having children at early ages.
Might also point out that our high school completion rate (92%) is higher than yours (85%). Hmmm. That would mean our dropout rate is lower. Oh well. Maybe you should look before you leap.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ion_attainment
I call it a more successful program than yours which has a 50% dropout rate. Now you want to bring up drop out rates for indigenous students, how many of your indigenous students drop out. We are well aware of the disadvantage of our indigenous remote area populations but we have implemented specific programs to help these people and none of them live in poverty except by choice. These peoples also retain their traditional languages and so have to jump hurdles you have no idea about because they are not written languages and there is no tradition of reading, maths or science among them. Once again I suggest you focus on fixing your own problems since you have nothing practical to contribute to solving ours
As to those who don't complete higher education, I suggest they are mismatched to the discipline they are being instructed in
Sheer lunacy. I just gave you the data about our dropout rate. Read a little before you post such a ridiculous figure. It's not even close to being correct.Quote:
I call it a more successful program than yours which has a 50% dropout rate
I do read, where do you think I got that statistic but you only believe statistics selectively
You got that statistic from your own prejudiced imagination. It is ridiculously wrong. But you are welcome to post a link if you can find one that agrees with that foolishness.
You only read links that agree with you so why should I bother trying to educate you?
You can't because you have nothing. Your bitterness and hatred have once again led you into a blind alley. No one here is foolish enough to believe the dropout rate in the U.S. is 50%. It is sheer nonsense. You're just mad because, as it turns out, your dropout rate is higher.
"College dropout rates average at 40% each academic year for undergraduate students. College dropout rates are 20% higher for male students in comparison to female students. 44% of students who take part in a four-year college course manage to graduate within the first six years. Public universities have a higher than average dropout rate of 50%."
https://www.thinkimpact.com/college-dropout-rates/
The discussion was about high school dropout rates, not college. Still, I would certainly agree that our college dropout rate is abysmal, though it seems that it is more like 40% than 50%. I would imagine that much of the problem centers around poor planning by young people heading off to college.
This site has a ton of material.
https://admissionsly.com/college-dropout-rates/Quote:
The issue of dropout is most prominent in the American higher education system. Approximately, one in three students who enroll for higher education is never able to earn a degree.
- The overall college dropout rate in the U.S. is 40% for undergraduates, wherein the U.S. ranks 19th in graduation among 28 countries in OECD studies.
Regarding Australia's performance, this makes me very suspicious of what they are doing. "Essentially anyone who wants to go to university can do so through a number of alternative pathways — even if he or she has done poorly in high school or dropped out. Universities have been required to increase supports for these students — to get them in and then to graduate them."
https://hechingerreport.org/australi...lege-students/
- Every year, over 1.2 million students drop out of high school in the United States alone. That’s a student every 26 seconds – or 7,000 a day.[1]
- About 25% of high school freshmen fail to graduate from high school on time.[2]
- The U.S., which had some of the highest graduation rates of any developed country, now ranks 22nd out of 27 developed countries.[3] https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts...ime.%20%5B2%5D
If you check the reference, that figure is for Los Angeles, not for the entire country. The national drop out rate is around 10 to 15%. I don't like dishonest articles like that one.Quote:
Bear in mind that the national drop out rate does not factor in those students who later get a GED.
More info. "In 2017–18, the ACGRs (graduates from HS in four years) for American Indian/Alaska Native2 (74 percent), Black (79 percent), and Hispanic (81 percent) public high school students were below the U.S. average of 85 percent. The ACGRs for White (89 percent) and Asian/Pacific Islander3 (92 percent) students were above the U.S. average." That does not factor in those students who get a diploma in a fifth year of high school.
https://nces.ed.gov/FastFacts/display.asp?id=805
Please quote the sentence(s) in that referenced article that say that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
This is the article referenced, but there is no link to get to it. Still, it clearly says it is about Los Angeles.
Silver, David, Marisa Saunders, and Estela Zarate. "What Factors Predict High School Graduation in the Los Angeles Unified School District." Attendance Counts. Accessed February 18, 2015.
Now I did what you did not do. I troubled myself to find the article. Here it is. I'll let you browse through the 25 or so pages looking for the stat. But it is simply not true to say that the 4 year dropout rate for the entire country is 25%. I've given you plenty of evidence for that. All that is necessary is for you to read it. The NCES is the National Center for Education Statistics. It is widely recognized and accepted as opposed to "dosomething.org", but take your pick. All up to you.
http://www.attendancecounts.org/word...Study-2008.pdf
I read it before I posted it as a link (with .pdf and also a wp text)
I was referring to your post 28. You have never posted the pdf link I posted in link 31. That was the reference used in the "dosomething.org" site. The Thinkimpact site you linked to in post 26 had a gazillion stats with no specific references as to where they came from. So I just picked one of the random links they had. It took me to "admissionsly". That site said the college dropout rate was 33%. So with all due respect, your links do not agree with each other.
Of course. As always, I'm bad; you're good.
Nothing's been said about being bad or good. It's just that you cannot respond to points that are made. The college dropout rate is not 50%, and I know you are disappointed about that, but it's simply the way it is. But as I said 10 posts back, I completely agree with you that the dropout rate in our colleges is too high. There are many things wrong with our universities, excessive cost being one of them. It puts higher ed out of reach of low income people, and means that far too many young people graduate with a load of debt around their necks. So we are basically in agreement. OK??
Nope. Higher ed (college) is too often a crock -- and much too expensive for what is supposedly achieved. We need much more teaching for and learning of practical careers.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You said, "Higher ed (college) is too often a crock -- and much too expensive for what is supposedly achieved."
I said, " There are many things wrong with our universities, excessive cost being one of them. It puts higher ed out of reach of low income people, and means that far too many young people graduate with a load of debt around their necks."
So in what way are we not in agreement? Sure looks like agreement to me.
Do you know what I meant by that?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Perhaps not. Expand on that.
But we do agree that the cost is too high. Correct???
What did you learn in college that helped you throughout your career?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Yes.Quote:
But we do agree that the cost is too high. Correct???
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