As many as 20 Repub sucker Senators will vote yes on the $trillion "infrastructure " bill that no one has read(to date it is 2700 pages long and growing ) . EVERYONE knows that is not the end . After it is passed it will then go into a reconciliation bill that will only need a majority vote for passage. Kam the Sham will cast the deciding vote and all those GOP saps will wring their hands and act like Captain Louis Renault and proclaim they are shocked ;shocked at the Dem betrayal ! The Dems will proclaim it a bipartisan win. Quid will present this to the radical lefty wing of the party that he can deliver on their transformation agenda .

Casablanca gambling? I'm shocked! - YouTube

Even worse, it is money that we do not have. When the pols figured out that the American people have become so dumb as to celebrate the spending of borrowed/printed money which precludes the need to raise revenues, then it was a great day for the pols and a disaster for the rest of us.

What is bipartisan is this utopian free lunch notion that borrowing is free; spending pays for itself ,interest rates remain near zero and inflation is a temporary disruption in the supply chain.
What is really sad is that few of the dollars will go to actual infrastructure improvement . More likely it will be like the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act fill in pot holes project complete with quid's version of the emperor's propaganda road signs .
https://inertiawins.files.wordpress..../arra-sign.jpg

Something like Build Back Better

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/g1cAA...Oq9/s-l300.jpg

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/161...g?v=1579549856

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Originally Posted by tomder55

As many as 20 Repub sucker Senators will vote yes on the $trillion "infrastructure " bill that no one has read(to date it is 2700 pages long and growing )

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The bill was finalized on Sunday evening.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

What is really sad is that few of the dollars will go to actual infrastructure improvement

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Here's a list of infrastructure improvements:

$110 billion for roads, bridges and major infrastructure projects.

$40 billion for bridge repair, replacement, and rehabilitation, the single largest bridge investment in 65 years,
$17.5 billion for major projects that would be too large or complex for traditional funding programs,
$11 billion for transportation safety,
$1 billion to reconnect communities, disproportionately Black neighborhoods, that were divided by highways and other infrastructure,
$39 billion to modernize public transit,
$66 billion in passenger and freight rail, the largest federal investment in public transit in history,

$65 billion investment in improving the nation's broadband infrastructure,
$17 billion in port infrastructure and $25 billion in airports to address repair and maintenance backlogs, reduce congestion and emissions near ports and airports and promote electrification and other low-carbon technologies,
$7.5 billion for zero- and low-emission buses and ferries,
$7.5 billion would go to building a nationwide network of plug-in electric vehicle chargers,
$73 billion to rebuild the electric grid,
$55 billion to upgrade water infrastructure,
$50 billion would go toward making the system more resilient -- protecting it from drought, floods and cyber attacks,
$21 billion to clean up Superfund and brownfield sites.


Paying for the bill:

Repurposing unused Covid relief funds. The bill text lists savings from rescinding unobligated appropriations for the Economic Injury Disaster Loan program for small businesses and nonprofit groups, the Paycheck Protection Program, the Education Stabilization Fund and relief for airline workers, among others.

$53 billion that stems in part from states opting to terminate the pandemic unemployment benefits early to push the jobless to return to work.

$49 billion from delaying a controversial Trump administration rule that would radically change how drugs are priced and paid for in Medicare and Medicaid until 2026, at the earliest. The measure would effectively ban drug makers from providing rebates to pharmacy benefit managers and insurers. Instead, drug companies would be encouraged to pass the discounts directly to patients at the pharmacy counter. It is currently expected to go into effect in 2023.

Recoup funds from fraudulent pandemic unemployment payments, how much has been stolen and how much can be recovered is not known.

$56 billion in economic growth resulting from a 33% return on investment on the long-term projects.

$28 billion by changing the tax reporting rules on cryptocurrency, $20 billion from future sales of spectrum auctions and to utilize $67 billion from spectrum sales that already occurred.

The bill won't raise taxes on people making less than $400,000 a year and does not include a gas tax increase or fee on electric vehicles. The initial call for raising taxes on corporations to fund the infrastructure investments did not make after strong opposition from Republicans.


Left out of the bill by Republican opposition:

$400 billion to bolster caregiving for aging and disabled Americans,
Care at home through community-based services or from family members,
Improve the wages of home health workers,
$100 billion for workforce development, which would have helped dislocated workers, assisted underserved groups and put students on career paths before they graduate high school,
$18 billion to modernize the Veterans Affairs hospitals.

Corporate income tax raise - rejected by Republicans,
Plan to end sheltering profits in international tax havens - rejected by Republicans,
15% minimum corporate income tax - rejected by Republicans.

looks like a plan, a plan to bankrupt the country

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Here's a list of infrastructure improvements:

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If you add the spending figures Athos provided, you get a little more than 500 billion dollars. The bill provides for 1.2 trillion in spending. What's the other 700 bil to be wasted, er, spent on? And if you add up the figures of the revenue "plan" he provided, even if we assume that it's actually going to happen in the way described, you get less than 300 billion. Where will the extra nearly trillion dollars come from? And then there is the 500 bil or so the wicked repubs refused to agree to. How would that have been paid for? Does Athos think we cannot do math here? Is this how all liberal dems regard federal spending? Could this kind of faulty thinking explain how we have managed to get more than 30 tril in debt?

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Repurposing unused Covid relief funds. The bill text lists savings from rescinding unobligated appropriations for the Economic Injury Disaster Loan program for small businesses and nonprofit groups, the Paycheck Protection Program, the Education Stabilization Fund and relief for airline workers, among others.

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In other words, non-revenue money printed/borrowed, we were told, because of the urgent needs for Covid relief, will now be redirected to another supposedly urgent need. Strangely, that is not reassuring.

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$53 billion that stems in part from states opting to terminate the pandemic unemployment benefits early to push the jobless to return to work.

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More borrowed/printed money that was urgently needed until it wasn't urgently needed.

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$49 billion from delaying a controversial Trump administration rule that would radically change how drugs are priced and paid for in Medicare and Medicaid until 2026, at the earliest. The measure would effectively ban drug makers from providing rebates to pharmacy benefit managers and insurers. Instead, drug companies would be encouraged to pass the discounts directly to patients at the pharmacy counter. It is currently expected to go into effect in 2023.

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Doubtful at best.

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Recoup funds from fraudulent pandemic unemployment payments, how much has been stolen and how much can be recovered is not known.

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A well known song used by pols that never results in much money being recovered.

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$56 billion in economic growth resulting from a 33% return on investment on the long-term projects.

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A 33% return?? Maybe. Over what length of time?

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$28 billion by changing the tax reporting rules on cryptocurrency, $20 billion from future sales of spectrum auctions and to utilize $67 billion from spectrum sales that already occurred.

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Book keeping nonsense.

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The bill won't raise taxes on people making less than $400,000 a year and does not include a gas tax increase or fee on electric vehicles. The initial call for raising taxes on corporations to fund the infrastructure investments did not make after strong opposition from Republicans

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Just another in a long line of actions designed to make people happy but guaranteeing that more money must be borrowed/printed.

You forgot the $500 million 'Strengthening Mobility and Revolutionizing Transportation Grant Program', meant to help acquire drones from China .

All of these numbers are irrelevant as the real cost will be in the reconciliation bill now estimated at $3.5 Trillion on top of this bill.

It is not written completely yet . As we speak the cryptocurrency lobby is at work getting Senators to amend the section of the bill that pertains to the cryptocurrency industry (is that infrastructure ? ) . I'm sure the lobbyists on K street will be working the phones 24/7 to make sure their goodies are included

You would hope that one thing every clear thinking American could agree on would be the need to pay the bills. That our country has become so deeply in debt should be an enormous concern for every American, but what you get from both parties now is silence. The voters love the freebies too much.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

You forgot the $500 million 'Strengthening Mobility and Revolutionizing Transportation Grant Program', meant to help acquire drones from China .

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It was not intended to be all-inclusive. It was intended to reply to your comment that "What is really sad is that few of the dollars will go to actual infrastructure improvement".

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All of these numbers are irrelevant as the real cost will be in the reconciliation bill now estimated at $3.5 Trillion on top of this bill.

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Hardly irrelevant. They are what they are.

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It was not intended to be all-inclusive. It was intended to reply to your comment that "What is really sad is that few of the dollars will go to actual infrastructure improvement".

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Less than half of the money will go to "infrastructure", and even at that, some will go to questionable areas such as, "$17.5 billion for major projects that would be too large or complex for traditional funding programs (says who?), $1 billion to reconnect communities, disproportionately Black neighborhoods, that were divided by highways and other infrastructure (what?), $39 billion to modernize public transit (to what?), $66 billion in passenger and freight rail, the largest federal investment in public transit in history (Very few people have any interest in riding trains), $65 billion investment in improving the nation's broadband infrastructure (Why isn't that private sector?), $7.5 billion for zero- and low-emission buses and ferries (completely needless), $7.5 billion would go to building a nationwide network of plug-in electric vehicle chargers (What?), $73 billion to rebuild the electric grid (It's not working fine now?).

Now Athos doesn't like answering questions, but I do like to point out the flaws in his liberal dem reasoning which are many. His silence is illuminating.

There is only one way to stop you country moving down the path to bankruptcy, another Boston tea party, but this time dump the politicians in the harbour

The last time a tea party was attempted to curb uncontrolled spending ,the emperor unleashed the dogs of the IRS on them .

I really don't know what the answer is. Dems have long been in favor of unrestrained spending (for the purpose of buying votes), but repubs seems to be on board now as well. Their defense, I suppose, is that they are in favor of LESS unrestrained spending than the dems. Either way, there is no longer a party advocating for a balanced budget, so it seems the train will have to run off the track before anyone pays attention to the rails.

Isn't that what the infrastructure bill is for?

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Isn't that what the infrastructure bill is for?

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To balance the budget? Are you kidding?

As an outsider. it would appear that the Dems are very much the UK's New Labour, trying to spend out of a crises, whereas the Reps, like UK Conservatives, merely screw everyone out of as much money as possible...
Either way, the country as a whole, looses.

A lot to be said for a more balanced approach..

How are the republicans screwing people out of money?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

How are the republicans screwing people out of money?

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The conservative elite always line their own pockets while smiling about their "good works". Very much like the old skool confidence trick, look here, don't worry about what my other hand is doing...

While there was a lot of noise about Hunter's "business" dealings, the nepotism displayed by Trump and the "business" dealings of Kushner are in a completely different league.
The whole system needs a rethink. Why should we be "governed" by these over entitled, empowered people, who believe that they are above the law and even common decency. This isn't a party problem, but endemic in modern politics across the globe.
Government is meant to be there to serve the will of the people, we see very little of that happening.

It appears that in a crisis everyone uses Keynesian logic even though it has never worked in practice.(flooding the economy with monopoly money to stimulate the economy ) Where the Republicans fail is that they are correct in applying supply side tax cuts;but they are really bad at the other end of the equation ...reducing the size of government and controlling spending .

Even though I am critical of his economic theories I keep this quote from Keynes close to my heart .
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.

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The conservative elite always line their own pockets while smiling about their "good works". Very much like the old skool confidence trick, look here, don't worry about what my other hand is doing...

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You mean like the Clintons and the Clinton Foundation, or Bill Gates and the Gates Foundation? Both are, of course, liberal democrats.

You still have not explained how repubs are "screwing" people out of their money.

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While there was a lot of noise about Hunter's "business" dealings, the nepotism displayed by Trump and the "business" dealings of Kushner are in a completely different league.

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There is nothing wrong with honest business. Hunter Biden's activities were taking advantage of his name and his dad's unethical willingness to use his political influence to help out. What did Kushner do that was illegal or unethical?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

There is nothing wrong with honest business. Hunter Biden's activities were taking advantage of his name and his dad's unethical willingness to use his political influence to help out. What did Kushner do that was illegal or unethical?

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True nowt wrong with honest business, however both sides of this are as guilty as the other when it comes to dodgy deals with foreign powers. Biden's was used as an attack advert during the election, whereas Kushner was conveniently forgotten about and not mentioned while he was "Special Adviser". As ever, one rule for us, and whatever they want to do for them in power.

I am not aware of any business activities he conducted as an advisor to Trump that was the equivalent of Hunter Biden's "10 % for the 'big guy' . I am aware that he was a key player in the Mid East Peace process and was instrumental in negotiating the 'Abraham Accords ' which is the best framework for peace in the Middle East since the Camp David Accords .

tom, this is worth watching: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11947152/?ref_=ttep_ep3

Please approach with an open mind, rather than clouded by partisan focus.

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however both sides of this are as guilty as the other when it comes to dodgy deals with foreign powers

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But you only mentioned the republicans as "screwing people out of their money". Why was that? Would that be an example of being, "clouded by partisan focus"?

I have no issue with someone suggesting that pols sometimes make the lives of people worse rather than better, and do so to their own advantage, but when that gets pegged only on republicans, I think it's incorrect. Without any question, running up a national debt of tens of trillions of dollars is going to make our lives worse, and liberal dems bear more of the burden of responsibility for that than do repubs. Not all of the responsibility, but certainly more of it.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

But you only mentioned the republicans as "screwing people out of their money". Why was that? Would that be an example of being, "clouded by partisan focus"?

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You're quoting out of context again, please stop.

The conservative ethic is to ensure that the moneyed elite increase their wealth at expense the of the lower classes.
Take, for example, Trumps tax law changes that only really benefited those of higher income.

It's all a confidence trick, making scaregoats out of those less well off, while chowing down in the gravy trough.
Shift the focus so the general populace don't notice they are getting royally screwed over.
For example, immigration.
The percentage of useless immigrants is very low, however they are presented as a scourge on society.
Many immigrants merely want to work for a better life and improve society.
I'm not going to comment further on immigration as I'm sure my point is lost.

As for my comment to tom concerning the link, I'd like you both to watch the piece without any preconceived ideas or views, so not trying to destroy it without giving the subject matter some thought. You have a tendency of jumping in and commenting without looking at the whole picture. For sure, it will have a particular view, but the point is to get you thinking, rather than accepting what "your masters" tell you is the honest truth.
There is far more out there than the narrow world view you tend to prefer.

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whereas the Reps, like UK Conservatives, merely screw everyone out of as much money as possible...

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That's your statement. Hard to imagine how you could have meant anything else other than what I described. And when you say, "The conservative ethic is to ensure that the moneyed elite increase their wealth at expense the of the lower classes. Take, for example, Trumps tax law changes that only really benefited those of higher income," aren't you basically doubling down on your statement???

As to income tax cuts, in the U.S., the top 20% of income earners pay almost 90% of income taxes. The bottom 50% pay virtually nothing, and many of them actually get money rather than pay money. That being the case, any income tax relief given will benefit the people already paying taxes, and that is the top 20%. As a perfect example, Clete says he hasn't paid income taxes in Australia in the past 20 years. Since that's the case, he can't possibly see any tax relief. It's hard to reduce zero.

Immigrants are generally not presented as a scourge on society, or at least not by major republicans. The complaint is that our southern border is like a sieve and ILLEGAL immigration is completely out of control. Seems like a reasonable complaint to me.

I tried to watch your video. It directed me to Netflix unless I completely missed something. I don't have a Netflix subscription.

66 minutes for business he conducted before he became a Presidential advisor ? Is there a condensed version that exposes alleged conflict of interests from Kushner's business interests benefitting from being an advisor to Trump ?

As a Trump advisor he ushered through Congress the most extensive reform of criminal justice (the First Step Act,)we have seen since Quid got tough on crack users . He helped negotiate a revamped trade deal with Canada and Mexico.He worked on Trump’s effort to cut government regulations on businesses, expand school choice programs and increase investment in poor urban neighborhoods.(maybe that is where his interests intersect).

Is there something besides speculation ? Does hiring family which is clearly nepotism ,necessarily bad ? President's often entrust family members with key policy agenda. JFK appointed his brother Robby as Attorney General . That is as powerful a position as nepotism can reward . Bubba entrusted Evita to take the lead in what he thought would be his signature policy agenda.

So far the most serious thing I have heard against his time as an advisor to Trump was his using personal emails to conduct government business . Nobody better go there after Evita got a pass on that .

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

You're quoting out of context again, please stop.

The conservative ethic is to ensure that the moneyed elite increase their wealth at expense the of the lower classes.
Take, for example, Trumps tax law changes that only really benefited those of higher income.

It's all a confidence trick, making scaregoats out of those less well off, while chowing down in the gravy trough.
Shift the focus so the general populace don't notice they are getting royally screwed over.
For example, immigration.
The percentage of useless immigrants is very low, however they are presented as a scourge on society.
Many immigrants merely want to work for a better life and improve society.
I'm not going to comment further on immigration as I'm sure my point is lost.

As for my comment to tom concerning the link, I'd like you both to watch the piece without any preconceived ideas or views, so not trying to destroy it without giving the subject matter some thought. You have a tendency of jumping in and commenting without looking at the whole picture. For sure, it will have a particular view, but the point is to get you thinking, rather than accepting what "your masters" tell you is the honest truth.
There is far more out there than the narrow world view you tend to prefer.

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Your point is not lost on everyone here, just the fringe right-wing. They refuse to think - or to look at links if they think it may challenge their cherished beliefs.

The ole ad hominem strategy again. Predictable. No answers.

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

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The conservative ethic is to ensure that the moneyed elite increase their wealth at expense the of the lower classes.
Take, for example, Trumps tax law changes that only really benefited those of higher income.

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I find your premise nowhere stated, I am unaware of a conservative manifesto that sets such an objective. Yes the Trump tax cuts benefited the higher incomes but how could they not in an economy where the lower echelon don't pay much tax.

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It's all a confidence trick, making scaregoats out of those less well off, while chowing down in the gravy trough.
Shift the focus so the general populace don't notice they are getting royally screwed over.
For example, immigration.
The percentage of useless immigrants is very low, however they are presented as a scourge on society.
Many immigrants merely want to work for a better life and improve society.
I'm not going to comment further on immigration as I'm sure my point is lost.

.

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It is true that many immigrants are economic migrants who are cannon fodder for the less well paid jobs, but there are also those who are fleeing oppression and poverty. This is despite attempts to set up industries in their own countries. The fact is there are too many people and too few jobs and population is not even distributed and this will ever be so. Mechanisation has eliminated many low paying jobs leaving the poor disadvantaged, and the wealthy, wealthier but none of this is an excuse for mass migration

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I find your premise nowhere stated, I am unaware of a conservative manifesto that sets such an objective. Yes the Trump tax cuts benefited the higher incomes but how could they not in an economy where the lower echelon don't pay much tax.

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Well said.

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The fact is there are too many people and too few jobs and population is not even distributed and this will ever be so.

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That has not been the case over here. We had historic lows in unemployment prior to Covid, and even now there are plenty of jobs for those who want them.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Well said.

That has not been the case over here. We had historic lows in unemployment prior to Covid, and even now there are plenty of jobs for those who want them.

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Why then do you object to the open borders policy?

that may be fixed at the end of the month when the generous freebees for the unemployed end (unless Quid extends them again like he previously did . )

Open borders ? Where do you think the covid is coming from ? Quid began flying some of the illegals back to Mexico . But he could not fill the plane because covid cases are so high with the illegals crossing the border .

US Is Flying Central Americans to Mexico to Deter Crossings | Texas News | US News

So illegals with covid are crossing into the US . But Quid will not lift travel restrictions for the rest of the world ,including Canada .

This would not be an issue if he had not dumped Trump policies of holding all entry migrants on the Mexican side of the border prior to proper screening . Over 200,000 illegally crossed over in July that we know of . Not all are caught so you can only imagine the real number . Over 15,000 unaccompanied illegal kids were caught crossing over in June .Those do not get returned to their native nations .

The city of McAllen Texas is on the border . It has had to set up holding facilities to house all the covid positive illegals . Quid just keeps on releasing them in the city . Over 7,000 covid positive illegals were released in the city since February and the numbers are surging .

This is another reason why it is a fantasy to think that a national vax campaign will control the virus . If he was serious about controlling the virus in the country ,step one would be a complete lock down of the border . That would be the most significant step to take instead of wagging the finger j'accuse at people who have not been jabbed .

Meanwhile the Dems are planning to use the $3.5 trillion (so far ) reconcilliation bill that will follow this bogus infrastructure bill to jam down our throats what the Slimes calls " far-reaching policy changes on immigration, labor and possibly voting rights " According to the Slimes the plan already "envisioned one of the most ambitious legislative efforts ever undertaken by Congress, including huge federal investments into expanding social and environmental programs. But with their legislative options dwindling, Democrats have concluded in recent weeks that they want to push the boundaries of what the budget can accomplish, beyond mere dollars and cents."

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Party leaders plan to include measures to create a path to citizenship for as many as eight million undocumented immigrants and to crack down on employers’ violating labor organizing rights. They are even weighing adding incentives to push states to expand ballot access. If they are successful, they could steamroll Republican opposition and enact those measures solely with Democratic votes, using a fast-track process known as reconciliation that shields legislation from a filibuster.

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Democrats Eye Budget to Force Policy Changes, Testing Bounds of the Rules (msn.com)

Who could have seen that coming <sarc> ?????

Republicans are like Charlie Brown forever being tricked by Lucy to attempt to kick the football .
It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown - Football - YouTube

One of these days we will all wise up to their game ..... but it may be too late .
Peter Griffin Beats Up Lucy van Pelt - YouTube

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Why then do you object to the open borders policy?

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For the same reason most people keep their front door locked. You want to have control over who enters. Terrorists and thugs, for instance, should not be welcome.

The infrastructure bill has passed all legislative hurdles and will pass this week ;maybe as early as today. We were told that it was paid for .Now we know that is not so.

CBO: Infrastructure Bill Could Add $256 Billion To Federal Deficit (wfyi.org)




http://cdn.mhpbooks.com/uploads/2013...ll-320x208.png

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The infrastructure bill has passed all legislative hurdles and will pass this week ;maybe as early as today. We were told that it was paid for .Now we know that is not so.

CBO: Infrastructure Bill Could Add $256 Billion To Federal Deficit (wfyi.org)




http://cdn.mhpbooks.com/uploads/2013...ll-320x208.png

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Yes it was paid for, paid for in the sweat of the workers who will never know a real income