With 2 surges heading their way ,Sydney has decided to punish themselves by imposing another lockdown .
The first surge is an increases in Delta variant (formerly called the India variant ) . The other is mice on the rampage.

Under the new lock down residents are only permitted to leave their homes for essential work, education, to receive a COVID vaccine, to seek medical care, outdoor exercise and to shop for food or other essential items. Those who wish to exercise outdoors may only do so in groups of 10 or fewer.

Meanwhile a plague of mice has forced the closure of the Wellington Correctional Center in rural New South Wales state (about a 4 hr drive from Sydney) .The plague of mice have been ravaging the region for many weeks and will converge on Sydney by August (if it hasn't already reached the city) .

'Mice Rain' In Australia: Millions Of Mice Ravage Towns & Crops, Is Sydney Next? - YouTube

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Originally Posted by tomder55

With 2 surges heading their way ,Sydney has decided to punish themselves by imposing another lockdown .

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What exactly would YOU have them do instead of "punishing" themselves in the face of a deadly virus?

I would not lock down for a couple dozen cases . But I'm sure il duce Cuomo can't wait to impose it again . The real question is why is the Aussie vaccination rate so low ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I would not lock down for a couple dozen cases

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Isn't a surge more than a couple dozen cases?

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The real question is why is the Aussie vaccination rate so low ?

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Isn't that all the more reason to lock down?

I don't believe in locking downs . I think free people should be appalled at the idea . I also don't think it is effective .

COVID Lockdowns May Have No Clear Benefit vs Other Voluntary Measures, International Study Shows (newsweek.com)

Danish study suggests local lockdown had no effect on SARS-CoV-2 infection rate (news-medical.net)

Lockdowns Do Not Control the Coronavirus: The Evidence – AIER

When we did not know how covid spreads then it may have made sense for a limited time . That was the original logic ;to not overwhelm the hospitals . Now that we know more about the disease a more targeted response is rational based on risk factors . A general lockdown is oppressive and not needed .

did you get your excelsior pass yet ? lol only il duce Cuomo could make it up

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I think free people should be appalled at the idea

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I'll never understand this attitude about "free people". I could name a million rules that "free people" are forced to do for various reasons, like public safety.

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I also don't think it is effective .

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We'll have to disagree on that one.

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Now that we know more about the disease a more targeted response is rational based on risk factors

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That is what the lockdowns have been - targeted according to the situation. Sometimes total, sometimes partial.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I don't believe in locking downs . I think free people should be appalled at the idea . I also don't think it is effective .

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"Free" people too often become dead people.

It's only the expanded use of monopoly money that enables these lockdowns. One day that will come to a sad end, and the result is not going to be pretty.

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It's only the expanded use of monopoly money that enables these lockdowns.

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True that and the technological advances that allowed thing like Zoom meetings ,and Uber eats .I ask why were there no draconian authoritarian lockdowns for other pandemics prior to covid ? Jobs were destination a short time ago . Zoom ad virtual work were not possible When I went down with the virus I relied on grocery deliveries after I chose what to get on a virtual menu .During the dotcom craze there was an online grocery delivery service called Webvan . It was a big time bust even though it was ahead of it's time . The technology was just not there .Amazon only delivered books . The covid lockdowns would not have been possible 20 years ago. So it was capitalism's innovations that made these lockdowns possible .

Politicians believe in 2 roles ;spend money and 'do something' .That means create "crisis " and attempt to fix the crisis they invent .

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"Free" people too often become dead people.

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The left doesn't believe free people will make rational decisions in their self interest . Shortly after the virus began all the experts knew the high risk and low risk demographics . In NY the reason the death toll among the elderly was so high was because il duce Cuomo ignored that . I still wear masks except in my home and outdoors even though all mask mandates have been removed in South Carolina . Why ? Because I understand my own personal vulnerabilities .

Free people do not have to be told to lock in place if they know the personal risks . They are perfectly capable to make that choice on their own without big nanny .

The truth is that since we only had the lockdowns we will never know if they were effective . But the links I provided make a case that there was a rational alternative .

Ok let us set the record straight, the rate of infections is growing rapidly and those of us outside of Sydney don't want the potentially infectious travelling since it seems casual contact is sufficient for infection. The infections started in eastern Sydney and have since infected the whole region and it has even been carried right across the country. Secondly there is no mouse plague on the east coast, the mice have not crossed the ranges. This variant of covid is highly infectious, just being in proximity is sufficient, so as a free people we have decided to take public health measures which include a mask mandate, ban on non essential travel, and large gatherings are banned

What is concerning here and has forced action is the number of community acquired cases. Previously cases were related mainly to overseas travel but now we have community transmission

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-...elta/100248456

clearly the mice are in the west
Mouse plague 'invades' Wellington prison, forcing hundreds of prisoners and staff to evacuate - ABC News The prison is 4 hrs from Sydney


Why is the Aussie rate of vaccinations so low ? Only 4.7% vaccinated .

Most vaccines have to be imported, the locally manufactured Astra Zeneca vaccine is restricted to the older age group because of occurrence of blood clots in younger people. Because of a low infection rate the sense of urgency wasn't there for the imported vaccines, call it a mis judgement. An Australian developed vaccine gave false positives for HIV and was discontinued. The vaccination rate for older Australians is high but the young have been slow to get vaccinated, the Delta strain changes to game and has been shown to be highly infectious and may be air borne

The reason for lockdown in Sydney is the low vaccination rate among the now more vulnerable younger population

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Originally Posted by tomder55

So it was capitalism's innovations that made these lockdowns possible

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An incredible statement requiring no comment.

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The left doesn't believe free people will make rational decisions in their self interest. Free people do not have to be told to lock in place if they know the personal risks . They are perfectly capable to make that choice on their own without big nanny.

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Then how do you explain the millions who refuse to get vaccinated? Are they rational? Apparently, they need big nanny.

23 % have not been vaccinated . Almost half of those have concerns about side effects . That is a rational reason for not getting it .Past experiences with health services, family histories, all play a part .

You may disagree with their reasoning . Nonetheless it is a rational reason. I know someone who has been fighting the side effects of the last vaccine they had more than 3 years ago . Id say that person's reasoning is very rational .

Hundreds of healthcare workers have refused to take the vaccine . They are making a rational choice . The most common reason is how quickly the vaccine was developed, insufficient safety and effectiveness data.

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Then how do you explain the millions who refuse to get vaccinated? Are they rational?

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As stated earlier, their refusal basically affects no one other than themselves. I can't imagine why it's considered to be anyone's business but theirs.

Look there appear to be problems with all the vaccines, Astra Zeneca has a history of blood clotting in younger persons but the death rate is low, Physer causes you to get the flu for a couple of days, Moderna isn't available yet. There are rumoured to be long term issues with the vaccines so people are hanging back because the infection rate has been low. The shutdown comes on medical advice and the doctors are panicking because they think they won't be able to cope with high infection rates, thus prevention is better than cure. Shutdown proved effective in Melbourne now at zero infections.

Meanwhile the supermarket shelves are once again being stripped of that vital edible toilet paper. Did the most expensive shop this morning I think I have ever done so prices? drought and flood affected supply and the damn virus are a triple wammy not to mention the mouse plague which is doing nothing for the wheat crop

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I can't imagine why it's considered to be anyone's business but theirs.

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You're clueless about how the virus spreads. Unvaccinated people can be asymptomatic and are the source of contagion.

Yes he is clueless about a lot of things. it is better to take precautions than not and a lassi faire attitude is unacceptable

Seems simple to me . If the vaccine is as effective as claimed then those vaccinated are protected . Those not vaccinated are taking the risk .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Seems simple to me . If the vaccine is as effective as claimed then those vaccinated are protected . Those not vaccinated are taking the risk .

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Agreed. I would add that those not vaccinated are putting others at risk also in addition to themselves.

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You're clueless about how the virus spreads. Unvaccinated people can be asymptomatic and are the source of contagion.

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They could only spread it to those who are similarly non-vaccinated and thus are taking the same risk. Pretty simple equation. It's still no one's business but their own.

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it is better to take precautions than not and a lassi faire attitude is unacceptable

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I never cease to be amazed at how much fake conservatives want to control the lives of others.

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Agreed. I would add that those not vaccinated are putting others at risk also in addition to themselves.

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Only others who choose to not get the vaccine. Driving on wet ,slippery,icy roads is a risk to oneself and others . Yet millions of people take that risk in the North East every winter .

If I was my old 40 year old self, I would not have taken the vaccine. The risk of dying, or even of hospitalization, for the under 50 crowd, especially for those who are otherwise healthy, is very, very, VERY low. Being 68 I decided that whatever risk it involved was an acceptable one relative to getting covid. But that was my decision and not the government's.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Only others who choose to not get the vaccine.

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There are a few things wrong with that statement. Not everybody who is not vaccinated CHOOSES to be non-vaccinated. It was months before I found a place to get the vaccine that was accessible to me. Children generally do not choose yes or no re the vaccine. Then there are the disabled, the elderly, the housebound and so on and so forth. Not in every case, but in many cases.

But, most importantly, you seem to be saying it's not a problem if other non-vaccinated people get it because, after all, they also chose not to get the vaccine. If you think about that, it's like saying spreading the virus is OK if the spread-ee chose not to get it in the first place. The spreading is precisely the problem we're trying to stop.

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Driving on wet ,slippery,icy roads is a risk to oneself and others . Yet millions of people take that risk in the North East every winter .

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There are a few things wrong with that analogy also. The risk is not so great as to seriously affect the nation's economy or cause 500,000+ deaths or millions of hospitalizations or possibly long term sickness.

Second, what do you do when the authorities close the roads because of dangerous driving conditions?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Being 68 I decided that whatever risk it involved was an acceptable one relative to getting covid.

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Your lack of action puts others at risk, not just yourself.

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Not everybody who is not vaccinated CHOOSES to be non-vaccinated. It was months before I found a place to get the vaccine that was accessible to me. Children generally do not choose yes or no re the vaccine. Then there are the disabled, the elderly, the housebound and so on and so forth. Not in every case, but in many cases.

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Otherwise healthy children have virtually no risk factor with covid. As to the others, it would be a simple matter to put up a sign, "Only vaccinated people allowed here." It would certainly be preferable to a government imposed mandate to inject something into your body.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

It would certainly be preferable to a government imposed mandate to inject something into your body.

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That "something" you despise is a vaccine preventing a deadly virus - a vaccine that can save your life.

What government has mandated the vaccine?

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what do you do when the authorities close the roads because of dangerous driving conditions?

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Driving is a privilege not a right . Generally I approve of that because my stalled vehicle on the road impedes clean up efforts .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Driving is a privilege not a right . Generally I approve of that because my stalled vehicle on the road impedes clean up efforts .

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So this somehow supports those refusing to get the vaccine?

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That "something" you despise is a vaccine preventing a deadly virus - a vaccine that can save your life.

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All true enough, though you failed to mention that it is new technology and relatively unproven. I have no problem with you or anyone advocating for the vaccine. It's a government mandate that I would oppose.

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What government has mandated the vaccine?

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Some state controlled universities have mandated it. There is a lot of talk of mandates for flying, working, etc.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

All true enough, though you failed to mention that it is new technology and relatively unproven.

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Relatively unproven? Where do you get that from?

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It's a government mandate that I would oppose.

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There is no government mandate.

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There is a lot of talk of mandates

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A lot of talk......???

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California has mandated covid vaccination for school children.

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Good for California.

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Relatively unproven? Where do you get that from?

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This is the first of the mRNA vaccines to be used. The whole technology is fairly new and has never been used to mass produce a human vaccine.

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A lot of talk......???

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Yes, like right here. "Good for California."

There are serious problems with many vaccines, the devil as usual is in the detail

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(from Athos) There is no government mandate.

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(from Jlsenbe)There is a lot of talk of mandates

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(from Athos)A lot of talk......???

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from Jlsenbe)Yes, like right here. "Good for California."

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"A lot of talk" is NOT a mandate. You missed the point.

No, you missed the point. You asked about there being, "A lot of talk...??" I showed that you are talking about mandates affirmatively yourself in your approval of California.

Here is some of the "talk". https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covi...s-and-the-u-s/

And to be clear, it is plain that there are some vaccine mandates already in place involving state institutions.

https://universitybusiness.com/state...ring-vaccines/

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

No, you missed the point. You asked about there being, "A lot of talk...??" I showed that you are talking about mandates affirmatively yourself in your approval of California.

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Vaccinations for schoolchildren is not "a lot of talk".

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and to be clear, it is plain that there are some vaccine mandates already in place involving state institutions.

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There is no government mandate. This thread is drifting.

I posted the link about talk of mandates. Also posted about university mandates. Ignore them if you want.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I posted the link about talk of mandates. Also posted about university mandates. Ignore them if you want.

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So ignored.

so speaking of mandates and non mandates the Australian government has moved to make vaccination mandatory for workers in aged care facilities, it is a short step to making vaccination mandatory for many professions and eventually the whole population. he who pays the bill gets to set the conditions

The Australian federal government has said anyone who wants the AstraZeneca vaccine may have it while medical advice restricts this particular vaccine to over 60's. The Queensland government has said they won't follow and will continue to restrict the vaccine and so the rollout of the vaccine has become politicised. It is very academic since Queensland only has a few cases of the delta strain and is panicing again

Did lock downs contribute to the death rate ? The Rand Corporation and the University of Southern California, working on behalf of the National Bureau of Economic Research, released a study about that .

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We failed to find that countries or U.S. states that implemented [shelter in place] policies earlier, and in which [shelter-in-place] policies had longer to operate, had lower excess deaths than countries/U.S. states that were slower to implement [shelter in place] policies. We also failed to observe differences in excess death trends before and after the implementation of [shelter in place] policies based on pre-[shelter in place] COVID-19 death rates.

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The Impact of the COVID-19 Pandemic and Policy Responses on Excess Mortality | NBER

People, businesses, and communities were destroyed because some public health “experts” were certain this was needed to save lives. They saved no lives but made people miserable and poorer in return for nothing.