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A new American exceptionalism

This is what Quid's National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan pledged,“Everything we do in our foreign policy and national security will be measured by a basic metric: Is it going to make life better, safer, and easier for working families?”

Quid made similar statements. “There’s no longer a bright line between foreign and domestic policy. Every action we take in our conduct abroad, we must take with American working families in mind. Advancing a foreign policy for the middle class demands urgent focus on our domestic economic renewal.”

But Quid was going to take us back to the days where we did not speak of American Exceptionalism . We were no better than any other nation and had to submit to the global community above our own interests . America first was something Trump said ,,,,, not Quid .

Sullivan ,sounding a lot like Trump , wrote “The core purpose of American foreign policy must be to protect and defend the American way of life,”

News to Sullivan and Quid . Trump was elected in 2016 by the middle class because in part he lambasted the traditional foreign policy establishment for NOT keeping American interests first . Trade deals, climate deals ,immigration policy ,foreign military adventures were implicated by Trump to be related to a decline of the American middle class. Quid has promised a return to traditional foreign policy . Then when he came in ,he began implementing polices that are harmful to the middle class like the cancellation of the Keystone pipeline .He relaxed policies Trump put in place to secure the southern border .

So there appears to be a disconnect between Quid's Administration rhetoric and polices they adopt .

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Sullivan ,sounding a lot like Trump , wrote “The core purpose of American foreign policy must be to protect and defend the American way of life,”

If they look around, I'll bet they can find some boxes of MAGA caps in a closet in the White House. Dust em off and put em on!

Just a comment; where is this exceptionalism leading? down the same rabbit hole as the War on Terror?, the War on Drugs? the War on Poverty? what if you gave a war and no one came, that would be exceptional

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Originally Posted by tomder55

America first was something Trump said

"America First" was the slogan of the American Nazis in the years leading up to WW2. They supported Hitler, and Trump was right in line with the Hitlerites as he tried to overthrow a valid presidential election by inciting an insurrection against the US government.

His goal was to establish a white supremacist regime in the US. He nearly succeeded thanks in part to a large block of white evangelicals.

The history books will show that African-Americans and other people of color were instrumental in defeating Fascist Trump thereby saving the American experiment in self-government.

The absurd Reductio ad Hitlerum line of the day that completely ignores Hitler's murderous reign .
America First Committee 1940 opposed American entry into WWII . It consisted of people across the political spectrum .Among it's members were Democrat Sergeant Shriver ,future Republcan President Gerald Ford and future SCOTUS justice Potter Stewart .JFK donated $100 to the newly formed committee . Poet Robert Frost, actress Lillian Gish and composer Charles Ives were members .Alice Roosevelt Longworth was a founding director.
America first was about not getting entangled in foreign adventures ,something George Washington warned against . But when the Japanese attacked . Both Ford and JFK got into the fight . Even Lindbergh ,one of the most vocal isolationists tried to enter the war . Roosevelt refused him .So he volunteered to train pilots.

Clete ;

In defense of American exceptionalism ; Quid's Dec State Anthony Blinken correctly stated . “Whether we like it or not, the world doesn’t organize itself " “In the absence of our doing it, either someone else does [or] no one does. And then you tend to have chaos.”

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The absurd Reductio ad Hitl.............................................. ...sted of people across the............................................... .................................................. .................................................. .............the fight . Even Lindbergh ,one of the most vocal isolationists tried to enter the war . So he volunteered to train pilots.

None of the above changes my points re Trump.

PS. Lindbergh was refused entry into US Armed Forces by Roosevelt when WW2 broke out. He did mange to find flying with aircraft companies as a civilian. He also had a rather bizarre private life with more than one family at the same time - one in Germany and one in the states.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Clete ;

In defense of American exceptionalism ; Quid's Dec State Anthony Blinken correctly stated . “Whether we like it or not, the world doesn’t organize itself " “In the absence of our doing it, either someone else does [or] no one does. And then you tend to have chaos.”

That is the most absurd defence of the american ego I have heard. Look I get it you are supermen fighting for truth, justice and the american way, still listening to the propaganda. The problem is you arn't. The world's got along without america for thousands of years and many societies prospered. Your society has existed for 250 years and you think you have the right to order the world. Go stick it where the sun doesn't shine

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Your society has existed for 250 years and you think you have the right to order the world. Go stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

Anyone from a little country with virtually no global influence should exhibit some humility.

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None of the above changes my points re Trump.

except the fact that none of it is true . Trump did not try to create a " white supremacist regime in the US"....

Trump's popularity with minorities increased throughout his term because the pro-growrth economy he grew helped all before the pandemic hit .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Trump did not try to create a " white supremacist regime in the US"....

I believe he did. I base it on what he said publicly over the years beginning with "Mexican rapists" and finishing with denying the election - which he continues to do to this day. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter anymore. The madman is gone forever. His fame will endure as the first president to be locked up.

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Trump's popularity with minorities increased throughout his term because the pro-growrth economy he grew helped all before the pandemic hit .

Do you really believe Trump "grew" the economy? Giving most of $2,000,000,000 to corporations and the rich in his infamous "tax cut"? Imposing tariffs he didn't have an inkling what they are? Hitching on the tail end of a recovery started by Obama and the Dems after the Republicans threw the economy under the bus?

That's one of the great falsehoods of the Trump years. His gaslighting made it believable for his followers.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Anyone from a little country with virtually no global influence should exhibit some humility.

We do not bow to supposed American superiority

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Originally Posted by paraclete

We do not bow to supposed American superiority

As you should not.

Not all Americans think of ourselves as the world's bully. We think of ourselves as a most fortunate country isolated by two oceans to work out our destiny. It's a work-in-progress and we long to be the nation described in Emma Lazarus' famous poem on the Statue of Liberty.

We have much to apologize for and we are learning to do that.

I like the isolated part of your response, the idea of your superiority could only have developed in isolation

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I like the isolated part of your response, the idea of your superiority could only have developed in isolation

No argument there, but that's only part of it.

Yes well I suppose after you had conquered Mexico, the indigenous population, the Spanish Empire, The Japanese Empire single handed and the Nazi you became the master race. You have opposed every other philosophy but your own ever since and yet, tell me, have you actually won any wars since then?

Grenada; Yes
Panama; Yes
Korea; stalemate
Vietnam; No
Iraq; the jury is still out on that one
Afghanistan; No
Drugs; NO

Good grief. Is there anyone on this site more arrogantly smug about his country than you are? We could ask the same sort of things about your country. What has Australia done to help the world other than send a handful of troops or a handful of foreign aid from time to time?

We sure have a boatload of problems and sins from the past, but there is one thing for sure. If not for us, there would be no free Israel. There would be no free Kuwait. There would be no free Europe, and there would be no free Australia.

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Do you really believe Trump "grew" the economy?

of course . He lowered taxes and investments grew substantially . That grew jobs to record levels . All benefited including minorities . Quid and Yellen want to reverse that and that will be a disaster . Also Yellen's plan for a global tax rate will fail miserably because lower tax rates elsewhere will attract business . Idiots want to raise taxes during a pandemic . The EU will go with it because their taxes are already high ;and their national businesses react as they rationally should ..... moving out .

and here is more proof that Quid is an American Firster (at least rhetorically) .....only he sucks at it .

Biden willing to negotiate on corporate taxes, but 'sick and tired' of non-payers | Reuters

"The president argued that the United States’ position as a pre-eminent global power was under threat from China if the investments he outlined were not made, saying it would be unacceptable not to move forward.
“America is no longer the leader in the world because we’re not investing,” Biden said. “I don’t know why we don’t get this.”
China, he said, is “counting on American democracy to be too slow, too limited and too divided to keep pace” and “we can’t afford to prove them right.”

Nothing wrong with cleaning up your own house, before you beech about the other guys house! Lead by example?

yup America first

The liberal dems will spend us into oblivion. These new taxes will only pay for half of a new infrastructure plan which spends a lot of money on things other than infrastructure. The bill is going to come due at some point in the future and then we will regret our stupidity.

stop deflecting and admit you are not the superior being you claim to be

We are not the superior being many of us claim to be. Neither are you the superior being you claim Aussie land to be.

Does that suit you?

However, this is still quite true. " If not for us, there would be no free Israel. There would be no free Kuwait. There would be no free Europe, and there would be no free Australia."

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Originally Posted by tomder55

yup America first

Yup, and if done right many can benefit. Most will follow good example!!

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

We are not the superior being many of us claim to be. Neither are you the superior being you claim Aussie land to be.

Does that suit you?

However, this is still quite true. " If not for us, there would be no free Israel. There would be no free Kuwait. There would be no free Europe, and there would be no free Australia."

we bow before your beneficence, tell me if you can, when did you tear down the Berlin wall or free Poland or the Balkans. Your mighty war machine was hard pressed to roll back the Germans beyond Normandy or climb the Italian peninsular while the Russians were rolling over eastern Europe and you were happy for them to take and enslave that. You should read the history of the second world war some time, it may surprise you

I have read it extensively for decades. Australia is mentioned only infrequently. And your remarks about the taking of Normandy and Italy, at a cost of tens of thousands of American lives, is so stupid that it is amazing even for you.

It would help if you were not so jealous of our country. It is clear in many of your comments.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

We are not the superior being many of us claim to be. Neither are you the superior being you claim Aussie land to be.

I never claimed to be superior, but in some respects this land is superior at least in its ethos

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Does that suit you?

no you are still deflecting, we weren't discussing Australia but America

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However, this is still quite true. " If not for us, there would be no free Israel. There would be no free Kuwait. There would be no free Europe, and there would be no free Australia."

you have a peculiar sense of history, you don't do what you do to free anyone but for your own sectarian interests, America is afterall the second Israel and Saddam was a monster of your own making. You held off intervening in Europe until Japan forced you into the war and you would have had no interest in Australia if it had not been for that

And we still have but little interest in Australia. And if everyone there is like you, then I would suggest we have no interest at all.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I have read it extensively for decades. Australia is mentioned only infrequently. And your remarks about the taking of Normandy and Italy, at a cost of tens of thousands of American lives, is so stupid that it is amazing even for you.

It would help if you were not so jealous of our country. It is clear in many of your comments.

Jl, I am not jealous of your country, if not for the Murdoch press we would know as little about what goes on over there as you know about us. Yes Australia is forgotten in those rarified circles you travel in, excepting when you decide to go to war, but we fought in both world wars with distinction long before you got off your collective arses so don't think jealous, think distain. I don't like your attitude

The feeling is mutual.

I follow Aussie news . That is why i know that you have a new kick a$$ Defense Minister in Peter Dutton who understands how important it is to align with the US against the Chi-coms

Dutton is an opportunist, so yes we can expect more of the same. I'm not sure an aggressive stance is in our best interests but we certainly need to do some push back as China has singled us out on trade.

You guys have some important decisions to make regarding Taiwan and the Philippines as both are in China's sights, Biden has been a little silent

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-...alia/100056942

Quid will do nothing . That is why China even thinks they can make the moves they are making . Add India where "Maoists " attacked . China had nothing to do with that either .
India Naxal attack: At least 22 security personnel in Chhattisgarh killed in clash with Maoist insurgents - CNN

China needs push back from the Quad in a hurry . (United States, Japan, Australia and India )

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Quid will do nothing . That is why China even thinks they can make the moves they are making . Add India where "Maoists " attacked . China had nothing to do with that either .
India Naxal attack: At least 22 security personnel in Chhattisgarh killed in clash with Maoist insurgents - CNN

China needs push back from the Quad in a hurry . (United States, Japan, Australia and India )

Is Quid invested in the Quad? perhaps from an opportunist point of view, only the US and Japan have interests invested in Taiwan, and only if China attacks the US should we get involved, Dutton might have a different view. I can't see the US fighting Maoists in India, besides India is big enough to look after itself.

You can't use the Quad as your policeman in Asia, you need to do your own heavy lifting

the common link is China aggression .

btw ; if you need an example of how Quid will confront being challenged on the International state all you need to see is his decision to NOT enforce sanctions against Iran

US 'Monitoring' as Iran Sends Fuel Tankers to Venezuela in Defiance of Sanctions | Voice of America - English (voanews.com)

All you need to see is how on US soil ;Secretary of State Tony Blinken and Quid's National security Advisor Jake Sullivan got spanked by the Chinese

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Your mighty war machine was hard pressed to roll back the Germans beyond Normandy or climb the Italian peninsular while the Russians were rolling over eastern Europe and you were happy for them to take and enslave that. You should read the history of the second world war some time, it may surprise you

This is correct.

The problem with most Americans is that they get their view of WW2 in Europe through the propaganda films of Hollywood. It was necessary at the time to unite the nation in wartime, but it was never corrected post-war. There were simply far too many casualties from fighting overseas to even attempt a correction. This is not to say America didn't pay an enormous price in blood and treasure as did many nations engaged in that conflict. The defeat of Japan was primarily an American show leading the Allied forces in that theater.

Europe, however, was a different story. The Russians were responsible for defeating 75-85% of the German war machine on the Eastern Front. Normandy has incorrectly been called the greatest invasion in history. The truth is it was dwarfed by the German invasion of Russia in 1941 - nearly 4,000,000 men (Germans) over a thousand mile front.

American intervention in WW1, however, was decisive - late, but decisive.

No America in WW2 would have equaled German victory. German industry would not have been destroyed by the American bombing campaign. The American air and naval contributions are what you folks keep forgetting. It made an enormous difference. The German air power in the East would have been a difference maker.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

No America in WW2 would have equaled German victory. German industry would not have been destroyed by the American bombing campaign. The American air and naval contributions are what you folks keep forgetting. It made an enormous difference. The German air power in the East would have been a difference maker.

Funny sense of History, you have drunk the Koolaid

No America in WW2 would have meant a Soviet takeover of Europe. Germany was never going to win, it lacked the natural resources, Hitler also lacked that sense of history, failure to conquer the Soviets in six months, meant absolute failure. America wasn't on the horizon at that time, still partying on. The fact is that the allies won WWII, but America alone would have had a difficult task. The British empire, despite its vast resources, couldn't do it alone. As to air power it was the British that smashed the Luftwaffe and denied Hitler air power in the east

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The fact is that the allies won WWII, but America alone would have had a difficult task. The British empire, despite its vast resources, couldn't do it alone.

That's a fair statement.

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As to air power it was the British that smashed the Luftwaffe and denied Hitler air power in the east

That's an incorrect statement. The Brits had to bomb at night because they could not protect their bombers in the daytime. It was American daylight bombing that eventually crushed the Luftwaffe and destroyed Germany's industry. The destruction of that industry directly contributed to Germany's defeat.

of course the Russians would have been overwhelmed early in the war if not for American aid .The Lend Lease Act funneled $11.3 billion in US arms to the Russians ($180 billion in today's dollars ) In the 1st 18 months of the Russian campaign (after Hitler betrayed an alliance with Stalin......let's not make the Russians heroes here . ) ;the Red Army suffered massive defeats and tremendous losses . The reason that they were able to turn the tide was US aid and the leadership of the most brilliant ,and unknown to the West ,Generals in the war..... Georgy Zhukov .

First he gave the Japanese an a$$ whooping at Khalkhin Gol .It was a decisive annihilation that completely changed the course of the war. After the battle ,the Japanese abandoned the idea of taking Siberia and concentrated in the Pacific. That inevitably led to a clash between Japan and the US .It also guaranteed that Russia would not have to fight a 2 front war.
Then Zhukov was recalled to Moscow . He successfully defended the city .He then went to Stalingrad .He defended the city and then inflicted a massive defeat on the Germans ..

America made Ike a national hero and President . But Stalin obsessed with jealousy and paranoia humiliated and demoted Zhukov. He could not execute Zhukov because Zhukov was so popular . But he guaranteed that Zhukov would not ever be a threat to him .
Eventually he was rehabilitated after Stalin's death.

Anyway Yes the Russians paid a heavy price for their ill conceived alliance with Hitler .And they did the bulk of the fighting against Germany . But the US and Germany were both in 2 front wars while Russia only had to concern themselves with Germany . The Russians received massive US aid .
The decision to let the Russians do the bulk of the heavy lift after D Day was just a poor decision by Roosevelt . What it did was give us a generation of cold war with Russia enslaving half of Europe. . After the Battle of the Bulge ;we should have rushed as fast as we could to Berlin instead of crossing the Rhine and ending offensive actions .