There are 3 more or less successful vaccines waiting in the wings to be approved and distributed.
The question:
Are these the result of free market enterprise?
OR
Are they the result of big government intervention?
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There are 3 more or less successful vaccines waiting in the wings to be approved and distributed.
The question:
Are these the result of free market enterprise?
OR
Are they the result of big government intervention?
Simple answer. Who developed and own those companies? Is it private individuals or the government?
Put another way. What was the absolutely essential element, the knowledge, skill, and experience of the privately owned pharm companies, or the money and lessening of regulations of big gov? Which one could you have eliminated and still gotten the job done?
Trump loosened the regulatory burden to speed up the process . So if you think that easing the regulatory burden is the same as big government intervention then I now understand your confusion.
What regulatory burden did the dufus ease to speed up vaccine development?
he said do it
Read what follows. Look like socialism to you, Tomder? Or, if you prefer, a capitalism/socialism mix? Better yet, as I originally stated, capitalism modified by socialism.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
OWS, the Trump Administration Operation Warp Speed, offered $456 million to vaccine research and development projects by Johnson and Johnson as well as a total of $955 million to Moderna for late-stage clinical testing. The $1.95 billion allocated to Pfizer was for large-scale manufacturing and nationwide distribution.
The work conducted by Pfizer and its partner, German drugmaker BioNTech, is an expansion of OWS and was operating under an agreement to meet the goal of OWS to deliver 300 million doses of a vaccine in 2021. “Pfizer is proud to be one of various vaccine manufacturers participating in Operation Warp Speed as a supplier of a potential COVID-19 vaccine,” said Sharon Castillo, a Pfizer spokesperson.
Mike Pence and Nikki Haley both credited the government with leading the public/private partnership leading to the success of the vaccine.
Who's confused now, tom?
Well, at least you are willing to give Trump credit for the rapid development of the vaccine. That's better than others on this board.Quote:
OWS, the Trump Administration Operation Warp Speed, offered $456 million to vaccine research and development projects by Johnson and Johnson as well as a total of $955 million to Moderna for late-stage clinical testing. The $1.95 billion allocated to Pfizer was for large-scale manufacturing and nationwide distribution.
Certainly good news but the question was not credit for the dufus but what was the regulatory easing that you have put forth. It's a given the labs were going to develop a vaccine ASAP, they always have, and they deserve as much credit as the dufus for what they have done, but your claim was regulatory relief and I want to know what it was...if you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
A simple enough question since you offered it.
Kind of aggravating to ask a question and not get an answer, isn't it? I assure you I know exactly how you feel. I guess I could follow your example and tell you that Google is your friend.Quote:
A simple enough question since you offered it.
Well, since I despise that approach, I'll give you this link which includes, " In some cases, the U.S. government has agreed to purchase vaccines that achieve emergency-use authorization or licensure from the FDA. In other cases, the U.S. government is paying to manufacture vaccine doses while clinical trials are underway. "
You can dig through the rest and find additional examples.
https://www.politifact.com/article/2...operation-war/
And an interesting article about the anti-Trump at all costs media.
https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/09...on-warp-speed/
Thanks for the link about the contractual agreements, but I specified in my question the claim by you and Tom as to the regulatory burden that was eased. I can give the dufus his due credit for what he gets right, but do we have to exaggerate his doing his job and ignore what he didn't/doesn't do that makes things worse? I don't thinks so!
We have a vaccine in record time, but the very real deployment is MONTHS off. It would seem that with an endpoint in sight, targeted mitigation strategies would be ramped up to get us there, as even now the problem is exponentially growing out of control.
I mean dude is playing golf and not putting out the fires that crop up like he promised. He's more worried about making a case to unmasked crowds about voter fraud than sickness and death. Does that make sense to you? The election is over, his court cases have failed. History will write his legacy so whining to his base doesn't seem like a useful endeavor to what faces the nation.
Funny how you point out the dems hypocrisy while the holler masks and don't do it themselves but spare the dufus any such criticism for his holding super spreader events himself.
Not only did you not read the article, you didn't even read the excerpt I posted where it showed two areas where the regs were relaxed.Quote:
Tom as to the regulatory burden that was eased
Only if you believe that the end of December is MONTHS off. They expect to have twenty million vaccinated by the end of this month.Quote:
but the very real deployment is MONTHS off.
Please show me and forgive my inability to see what you have articulated.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Not normally done.Quote:
" In some cases, the U.S. government has agreed to purchase vaccines that achieve emergency-use authorization or licensure from the FDA.
Not normally done.Quote:
In other cases, the U.S. government is paying to manufacture vaccine doses while clinical trials are underway. "
More.
"Protocols for the demonstration of safety and efficacy are being aligned, which will allow the trials to proceed more quickly, and the protocols for the trials will be overseen by the federal government, as opposed to traditional public-private partnerships, in which pharmaceutical companies decide on their own protocols. Rather than eliminating steps from traditional development timelines, steps will proceed simultaneously, such as starting manufacturing of the vaccine at industrial scale well before the demonstration of vaccine efficacy and safety as happens normally. This increases the financial risk, but not the product risk."
https://www.hhs.gov/coronavirus/explaining-operation-warp-speed/index.html
The NIH’s top vaccine maker wants Warp Speed to be the new normal | Ars Technica
The Zika and Ebola outbreaks followed similar tracks. As we see from the links though is Big Pharma had already been working on corona viruses before last years outbreak.
That's nice to know.
yeah that it what capitallsts do. They anticipate a need and plan to provide goods and services for the need. The virus was first identified somewhere in the late fall last year . I expect they called in their PD staff and told them to do their science and perhaps get a jump on their competition .
New drug and device from R&D to approval averages from 7 to 12 years from pre-clinical trial to approval .
Drug Approvals - From Invention to Market...12 Years! (medicinenet.com)
The vaccines will be approved and distribution will have begun in a matter of months . That would not have been possible without streamlining .
I see you're avoiding my post # 6. I'm not surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
It's very clear that you are the one. To try and characterize OWS as a glowing example of socialism is as silly as trying to portray defense contracts in the same way. The government basically funded much of the work on the vaccines, relaxed regs to speed up the process, and private businesses (free enterprise) did the work. It's a great example of what can be done when the presence of the government is minimized.Quote:
Who's confused now, tom?
That's not completely accurate as Athos characterized OWS as public/private as do many others. A blend of many factors if you really need a label for emergency action during a crisis. None of us has to be confused if we stop with politicizing labels and comparing one thing over another when all hands on deck for whatever works best is the goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
It really does prove that different things can be successfully blended together and actually work.
Collaborative cooperation is a good label.Quote:
The vaccines will be approved and distribution will have begun in a matter of months . That would not have been possible without streamlining .
What was his point in doing that?Quote:
Athos characterized OWS as public/private
Sort of. I wouldn't care to swap short term gains for long term loss of freedom.Quote:
A blend of many factors if you really need a label for emergency action during a crisis. None of us has to be confused if we stop with politicizing labels and comparing one thing over another when all hands on deck for whatever works best is the goal.
Dude, we have many months before enough people are immunized to counter this virus. it's hardly a short term problem. It could well go into most of next year.
In the history of nations, months are most certainly short term.
thank you sunshine
Another intelligent, meaningful addition to the discussion from the resident Aussie. Note: Dripping with sarcasm.
In the months before Biden takes over, the death toll will be almost 400,000. Well over a million by the time most people will get vaccinated and that's short term.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You noticed, I must have hit a nerve, I find intelligent doesn't work with youQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
And yet another intelligent, meaningful addition to the discussion from the resident Aussie. Note: Dripping with sarcasm.
Oh always
Seems between now and we get enough people vaccinated we could do whatever we can to mitigate the spread, sickness, loss of life, and emotional trauma of going through this difficult time. Isn't that a form of charity? I think that as a nation with voluntary compliance to the safety protocols we would all be better off. I get people have rights and hate to be told what to do, but where's the common sense in spreading a deadly virus further and faster?
What do we need to do that we are not presently doing? In my area it seems, from what I can see, that people are doing pretty well in wearing masks, social distancing, etc. Perhaps this is just a sickness that is very difficult to contain and is showing us that we humans are not nearly as smart or in control as we think we are.Quote:
Seems between now and we get enough people vaccinated we could do whatever we can to mitigate the spread, sickness, loss of life, and emotional trauma of going through this difficult time.
Maybe your area is doing a better job of compliance, but clearly many are not.
That could be. I have no idea what the feds think they will do about it.
The states and locals are doing there own thing in the absence of federal guidance. That seems to be a factor in explaining why we have 50 plans instead of one.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
There is abundant fed guidance. It is fed guidance that is responsible for a vaccine being developed in months rather than years. The CDC has issued guidelines that the states are using. If there is anything else to be done, short of shutting down the entire country in every way for weeks, neither I nor you know what it is. And if we truly send everyone home for several weeks, it will completely wreck the economy and likely not even work. So rather than endlessly complaining, why don't you try coming up with an idea?
The truth is, we will limp along through January, but by February the Trump vaccine will become widespread enough to start making a significant difference. Then I'm sure we will all be singing Trump's praises for his effective and rapid response to COVID by developing the only thing that would really make a difference.
Have you been watching the news? States and localities have not been following CDC guidelines fully nor is the dufus pressing them too, and even going against them himself. I doubt I ever sing his praises, but will rejoice his departure when he finally leaves.
That's the understatement of the year.Quote:
I doubt I ever sing his praises,
If you want to criticize DJT, then that's fine. He is certainly deserving of much of it, but I have asked you more times than I can count for suggestions which we are not currently doing. Drawn a blank so far. I don't see us putting the FBI out to catch Tal or whoever is going about without a mask on. Harris/Biden can mandate masks if they want to. Many, many people will ignore them, but even if they do wear them, all of that seems to not be overwhelmingly effective. So we will wait for the Trump vaccine.
Have you been watching the news of the dem govs and mayors who set tough standards and then violate them themselves? Not repubs, but liberal dems.
Yes I have and have voiced my disgust at the hypocrisy, but that doesn't excuse the repubs from sending the message the virus ain't real and putting profits before people. Masks or any of the protocols are, but strategies to SLOW the spread of sickness and death. Still our own behavior as a nation is what is spreading this virus with little or no resistance so let's not pretend we couldn't do much better, it's just reality we don't want to whatever the reason.
If they were doing that, I would agree with you.Quote:
the repubs from sending the message the virus ain't real and putting profits before people.
Pretty much the case.Quote:
Still our own behavior as a nation is what is spreading this virus with little or no resistance so let's not pretend we couldn't do much better, it's just reality we don't want to whatever the reason.
I have a question for capitalists, how should the bullying of Australia by Chinese communists be opposed. Capitalists have aided and abetted the rise of China by investing there and making their industries strong, the outcome of this is they feel they can bully a capitalist oriented nation into submission. They will not retaliate against the stronger capitalist nation of the US but take out their ire on others. Will you join with us to boycott Chinese goods?
In general, yes. But you would have to define bullying. When Russia invaded the Crimea, sanctions were placed against Russia. That was the correct thing to do, short of war. I note that Trump, in effect, opposed the sanctions and wanted Russia to be allowed back in the economic group.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
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