This is mostly for those who support Trump, although the facts being checked include Joe Biden also.

As anticipated by just about everybody, Trump's comments were filled with lies, most horribly by his description of the children whose parents can't be found by Trump's administration. Against the claim by Trump that these children are "well cared for" and that they originally arrived with "coyotes" and cartels, the facts show that Trump made up these claims out of the blue.

There are literally dozens of sites providing fact checks of the debate. So as not to be accused of slanting the facts, I'll leave it to the viewers to pick the sites they trust.

facts, in Trump's view, are the boil on the arse of progress

any bigger lie that Quid saying he never got a penny from foreign countries through his son's businesses with the understanding of a quid pro quo ?

any bigger lie than Quid denying that he called black criminals 'super predators' on the Senate floor ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

any bigger lie that Quid saying he never got a penny from foreign countries through his son's businesses with the understanding of a quid pro quo ?

---

Sorry, Tom, but Biden never said that. You're changing/embellishing his comment that he never received money from any foreign source.

Quote:

---

any bigger lie than Quid denying that he called black criminals 'super predators' on the Senate floor ?

---

Tom, this is a bad one even from you. Trump has been saying this forever even though he has been told many times it is untrue. Biden NEVER called black criminals "super predators" on the senate floor or anywhere else. It was HC who used that phrase. But accuracy was never a strong point of Trump - now you.

As an aside, the famous crime bill of 1994 was supported by many black leaders and ministers to control the burgeoning crime rate in black neighborhoods.

got me ,,,,, he only called them predators , "beyond the pale" ,who must be cordoned off from the rest of society because the justice system did not know how to rehabilitate them. He said the circumstances about how they were raised did not matter .
you aren't denying that Quid has a long legislative history of incarcerating young black men ?

I remember Clintons crime bill that EVERYBODY was for very well. To say it was just Joe is deceptive and misleading, and plain untrue, and America has a long history of incarcerating black people, which is misleading also since it's poor folks bearing the brunt of the prison thing but white people don't seem to be as vocal about this economic inequity thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

you aren't denying that Quid has a long legislative history of incarcerating young black men ?

---

Yes, I'm denying it. See tal's reply above mine.

yes it is true that Bubba led . Quid followed his whole Senate career starting as a Jim Crow Dem . You can't deny that Quid played the hard core law and order Dem in the Senate after Dukakis lost for being weak on crime. You also can't deny that Quid led the charge to pass laws that disproportionately incarcerated minorities for offenses they should not have been incarcerated . Trump has led the way on prison reform . So like a typical Dem ,they have done another 180 and now they don't want to incarcerate anyone .....and they want to defund and in some cases disband police forces altogether .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

yes it is true that Bubba led . Quid followed his whole Senate career starting as a Jim Crow Dem . You can't deny that Quid played the hard core law and order Dem in the Senate after Dukakis lost for being weak on crime. You also can't deny that Quid led the charge to pass laws that disproportionately incarcerated minorities for offenses they should not have been incarcerated . Trump has led the way on prison reform . So like a typical Dem ,they have done another 180 and now they don't want to incarcerate anyone .....and they want to defund and in some cases disband police forces altogether .

---

Tomder, if you want to go back in time and criticize the events of years ago, then how about we do Trump. Do you want to review Trump's activities over the last 50 years? At least Biden had a rationale for his actions. Trump had NONE, NADA, ZERO - unless you want to count greed and the life style of a pig.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Athos

Tomder, if you want to go back in time and criticize the events of years ago, then how about we do Trump. Do you want to review Trump's activities over the last 50 years? At least Biden had a rationale for his actions. Trump had NONE, NADA, ZERO - unless you want to count greed and the life style of a pig.

---

Athos he is only a reflection of the society in which he lives, so singling him out on lifestyle is meaningless

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

Athos he is only a reflection of the society in which he lives, so singling him out on lifestyle is meaningless

---

I'm responding to tomder who is doing Biden's past, so why not Trump's past? I have no doubt who will win.

As to your comment on US society, it's pretty broad but it does contain a sizable amount of truth. I have always felt we deserve Trump as a representative of what America at it's worst has become. I'm referring not only to his presidency, but to his whole life. The presidency has made his essential character open to everybody, but too many actually approve of his evil.

In Biblical terms, Trump is a worshiper of Mammon.

suddenly Quid's past is irrelevant . I thought we were in a cancel society where the past is never forgiven . And if we are going to examine Trump's past on racial issues ,I'll remind all that before he was a Presidential candidate he was honored by the same Black leaders who condemn him today .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uf7CcvP7h8

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Athos

In Biblical terms, Trump is a worshiper of Mammon.

---

Trump is merely the high priest of his nation in this respect, nowhere on the planet is mammon worshiped more than in the USA. When you judge him you judge the nation. The one winner of the election will be mammon, no matter who the representative is this time

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

suddenly Quid's past is irrelevant . I thought we were in a cancel society where the past is never forgiven . And if we are going to examine Trump's past on racial issues ,I'll remind all that before he was a Presidential candidate he was honored by the same Black leaders who condemn him today .

---

Not sure what to make of this post. If it's about Trump and racism, Trump is a racist. That's an undeniable fact. For definite proof, just listen to what Trump himself claims. "I am the least racist person in this room". He has said that in several locations, bringing a laugh even to his supporters.

The definite proof lies in the fact that Trump said it. Anything he says is per se a lie. Believe the opposite and you'll be OK.

Quote:

---

The definite proof lies in the fact that Trump said it. Anything he says is per se a lie. Believe the opposite and you'll be OK.

---

can't argue against that impeccable logic

His record on race as President . Prison and criminal justice reform ;opportunity zones ;long term funding for Black Colleges ;supporting school choice which he correctly calls the civil rights issue of this century .

Quid talks a good game . But like the other Dems ;the accomplishments never quite match the rhetoric .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

can't argue against that impeccable logic

---

Meant sarcastically, but it's actually true. He lies so much that a good barometer for truth is the opposite of what he says.

Quote:

---

His record on race as President . Prison and criminal justice reform ;opportunity zones ;long term funding for Black Colleges ;supporting school choice which he correctly calls the civil rights issue of this century

---

Trump always claims credit for programs that originated in Congress and Trump had little to do with except signing off on them, and misleadingly cites dollar figures that are far higher than the actual and sometimes are ten-year in the future numbers - a fact Trump omits to tell.

However, to the degree Trump has genuinely become involved, he deserves credit.

Quote:

---

Quid talks a good game . But like the other Dems ;the accomplishments never quite match the rhetoric .

---

Trump is the far greater offender when it comes to accomplishments never quite matching the rhetoric.

Quote:

---

ten-year in the future numbers - a fact Trump omits to tell.

---

You mean like when people on this board talk about the 2 trillion tax cut for the wealthy, or when Biden talks about raising taxes to raise 3.5 trillion dollars? Come on. Using ten year figures is done by virtually every pol and certainly by some on this board. It's common.

If we want to talk about lying, then take a look at Biden's ad I mentioned last week that none of the "anti-lying" people bothered to respond to. It was a lie from beginning to end.

I will credit Tal for agreeing that, in voting for HC, he was choosing one liar over another. There are things you can criticize Trump for, but complaining about him lying is the ultimate in the pot calling the kettle black.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You mean like when people on this board talk about the 2 trillion tax cut for the wealthy, or when Biden talks about raising taxes to raise 3.5 trillion dollars? Come on. Using ten year figures is done by virtually every pol and certainly by some on this board. It's common.

---

2 trillion a year PERMANENTLY to people who don't need it as opposed to 3.5 trillion a year for needed investments, in jobs, infrastructure, health care during a pandemic, and state aid...DURING a pandemic. Not even a close comparison.

Quote:

---

If we want to talk about lying, then take a look at Biden's ad I mentioned last week that none of the "anti-lying" people bothered to respond to. It was a lie from beginning to end.

---

The dufus years of daily lies are a cauldron compared to campaign lies of politicians. Not even a close comparison.

Quote:

---

I will credit Tal for agreeing that, in voting for HC, he was choosing one liar over another. There are things you can criticize Trump for, but complaining about him lying is the ultimate in the pot calling the kettle black.

---

A cauldron compared to a kettle? No comparison between the dufus and HC OR JB! Not even close.

Quote:

---

2 trillion a year PERMANENTLY to people who don't need it as opposed to 3.5 trillion a year

---

Neither figure is for one year. They are both ten year figures. And of course it is not permanent as shown by the fact that Biden has suggested doing away with Trump's tax cuts, some of which went to the middle class.

I can't imagine anything that scares me much more than a federal gov that gets to decide who needs to keep their own money.

Quote:

---

No comparison between the dufus and HC OR JB!

---

You are right about that. There is no comparison. Trump, for instance, knows where he is on a daily basis.

You still have not commented on that despicable ad by Biden.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Neither figure is for one year. They are both ten year figures. And of course it is not permanent as shown by the fact that Biden has suggested doing away with Trump's tax cuts, some of which went to the middle class.

I can't imagine anything that scares me much more than a federal gov that gets to decide who needs to keep their own money.

You are right about that. There is no comparison. Trump, for instance, knows where he is on a daily basis.

You still have not commented on that despicable ad by Biden.

---

I stand corrected on those yearly/decade figures but must correct you on those middle class tax rates, which would only apply to incomes $400,000 and above. You don't consider that middle class do you? Please link your ad again please.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bid...ling-bar-owner

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

Please link your ad again please.

---

You are referring to the post that claimed Biden's ad was a lie from beginning to end. The lie was in that post from Jilsenbe.

Here's the truth.

Joe Malcoun’s business interests were already a matter of public record before the ad was made, and the Biden campaign said it had pulled the ad due to harassment and threats against Malcoun and his family, not because the campaign had been “caught” in any dishonesty.

The Trump people initiated the false rumor that the Biden campaign had been "caught in a lie". The rumor was completely false and Trump's real motive was to attack the Michigan governor who had been threatened with kidnapping and death by Trump's supporters. These morons are now in custody having been caught by the FBI.

Trump has yet to condemn the actions of these followers of his.

The price for having a voice in our political process cannot be endless harassment. And yet, that is what Joe Malcoun and his family currently face as he was doxxed, harassed, and threatened after the Trump campaign has sought to smear a community leader who dared to speak out against Trump’s failed response to the COVID crisis. It is shameful.

I posted much of the article below along with a link to a second source. The ad is just laughably a lie. First of all, Trump did not shut down the man's business, the Michigan gov did with Malcoun supporting her action. So to blame Trump is sheer nonsense. And if he really wanted to keep his bar open, he has PLENTY of financial resources to do it. And to top it all off, he is not simply a small businessman caught in the squeeze. He is a major Biden supporter. So as soon as their deception became public, the Biden campaign pulled the ad and took it off of Youtube. They knew they had been caught in a monstrous lie. For you to defend this is really wild.

You can't have it both ways. You can't complain about a lack of centralized control and planning as you have done, but then blame Trump for what are local decisions which his administration neither planned nor controlled. If Malcoun thinks he's struggling now, he should wait to see if Biden is elected. If that happens, then we'll have a pres who will shut businesses down with no regard at all for the economy. Take a look at NYC if you want a model. I have read that about half of the restaurants there will not reopen. What a disaster.

Quote:

---

The Biden team is under fire for releasing a TV campaign ad last week depicting a Michigan bar owner struggling to keep his business afloat during the pandemic.
What the ad fails to mention is the man is actually a wealthy tech investor who made contributions to the former vice president’s campaign. He also supported Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer's stay-at-home orders that kept businesses shuttered longer.
The ad, which was posted to YouTube on Thursday and aired Sunday on CBS during NFL games, features Joe Malcoun, who is listed as the “co-owner” of The Blind Pig, a once-popular bar and music venue in Ann Arbor, Mich. Malcoun blamed his business’ economic downturn on President Trump’s COVID-19 response.
“For 50 years, The Blind Pig has been open and crowded – but right now it’s an empty room,” he says in the one-minute ad, showing the empty venue. “This is the reality of Trump’s COVID response.”

The Blind Pig co-owner, Joe Malcoun, seen in a recent TV ad released by Joe Biden's presidential campaign.

“We don’t know how much longer we can survive not having any revenue. A lot of restaurants, bars that have been mainstays for years will not make it through this. This is Donald Trump’s economy," he continued. "There’s no plan, you don’t know how to move forward. It makes me so angry. My only hope for my family and this business and my community is that Joe Biden wins this election. That’s the kind of person we need.”

---

https://dailycaller.com/2020/10/20/j...ngel-investor/

https://news.yahoo.com/biden-campaig...200752577.html

I Googled "trump misleading campaign ads", and decided to watch The Walking Dead and the great overtime finish between Arizona and Seattle, followed by Netflix with the wife, rather than engage in a tit for tat about silly season campaign ads/lies/distortions that the dufus surely loses.

You got one of thousands and I got thousands of tens of thousands. That doesn't include the 60 Minutes interview. I guess my priorities are all screwed up!

I just forgot to hold my nose when I voted Biden/Harris. Sad I know...Oh well...glad you got a thrill out of it!

Except that, as usual, you didn't name one specific example, and you still have not responded to Biden's absolute lie of an ad.

At least you are honest in having to hold your nose to vote Harris/Biden. This is a poor year for pres candidates as was the case four years ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The ad is just laughably a lie.

---

I guess more truth is required to dismiss the nonsense about Trump catching Biden in a lie supported by Trump supporters like jislenbe. Here is the entire true story. I hesitated to post it because I'm quite sure it won't be read by Trump supporters. However, others will benefit by the truth as we all do. It's lengthy but thorough and well worth reading.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bar-owner-biden-ad/

The question now is about whether or not YOU read your own link. I don't think you did. The lying in question did not concern why the ad was pulled. The lying concerned Malcoun suggesting in the ad that Trump was responsible for his bar having to close down. That was an outrageous lie that was soon made clear by a number of news outlets. It is also true, and your Snopes link agrees with this, that Malcoun is not some penniless, small business owner, but a wealthy man with plenty of financial resources to support his bar. He is also a significant Biden supporter which was not mentioned.

The funniest part of the whole article was Malcoun's pathetic defense. In it he admits that the governor had put rules on bars limiting them to half the normal number of customers, that Malcoun himself had made decisions which hurt his business, and also demonstrated that Malcoun is unable to point to a single definite policy of the Trump administration that hurt his business. Instead he is reduced to pitiful pleas such as, "But instead he chose to weaponize COVID for his own political gain."

And as to why the ad was pulled, Snopes leans on the argument that it just couldn't have been pulled because its lies had become public. Why, that couldn't have been the case because, after all, the Biden campaign said it was not the case. So the people who put together the lying ad are now to be believed as to why it was pulled? Sorry, but as we say around here, "That dog just won't hunt!"

Try reading your own links, Athos.

Also laughable is this idle speculation from Malcoun's response. "If Trump had taken this virus seriously from the beginning and imposed a national strategy to address it venues like the Pig would be open by now and you would be enjoying live music again." Does he mean a national strategy like European nations used, the same nations which are still knee-deep in the virus and are enduring record spikes in infections at this very moment??? He ends with this nonsensical lunacy, saying, "...and has convinced his supporters that the medicine is the illness." What??? The real reason his bar is closed is because Malcoun chose to close it. That is the absolute bottom line. It would have been a much more honest ad if Malcoun had simply said, "I HATE DONALD TRUMP."

"Right now thousands of venue employees and musicians are out of work and millions of fans were robbed of live music experiences. That is the real tragedy. The Blind Pig isn’t closed because of our Governor’s rules. In fact we are technically ALLOWED to be open at reduced capacity right now. We are closed because it’s UNSAFE and irresponsible to be open. It’s also unsafe for artists to tour right now. Gov. Whitmer put rules in place to protect our communities against the spread of a virus. The rules are not our enemy … the virus is the enemy. If Trump had taken this virus seriously from the beginning and imposed a national strategy to address it venues like the Pig would be open by now and you would be enjoying live music again. But instead he chose to weaponize COVID for his own political gain and has convinced his supporters that the medicine is the illness."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The lying in question did not concern why the ad was pulled. The lying concerned Malcoun suggesting in the ad that Trump was responsible for his bar having to close down. That was an outrageous lie that was soon made clear by a number of news outlets.

---

The issue was your statement that the ad was a lie "from beginning to end". Your long comment in your own words proves you were lying about that. The number of news outlets clearing up the "outrageous lie" was no doubt Fox and some other far-right outlets.

The remainder of your long diatribe was simply describing why you didn't like the ad. It's fine to not like the ad, but it is NOT fine to describe it as a lie from beginning to end.

I made an exception to answer you in this case, because your lie was so egregious and so easily rebutted. I will now go back to ignoring you most of the time.

Quote:

---

The issue was your statement that the ad was a lie "from beginning to end".

---

So where did Snopes dispute that the ad contained lies?

Quote:

---

Your long comment in your own words proves you were lying about that.

---

How?

Quote:

---

The number of news outlets clearing up the "outrageous lie" was no doubt Fox and some other far-right outlets.

---

Yahoo News is now a far-right outlet?

You're just mad because your own link to Snopes demonstrated that the ad contained lies. My comment was never primarily about WHY the ad was pulled, but rather was about the ad itself. The Snopes article did nothing to dispell that, but also provided no evidence to show that the Biden campaign did not pull it because its lies had been made public. They simply went off the statements of the Biden campaign. Why should anyone believe them? Doesn't that simply serve to demonstrate the biases of Snopes in believing Biden but not believing the news articles?

But I'll tell you what. Go to Youtube and listen to the ad and then come back and tell us what you think.

You ignore me because you have no answers as your reply above clearly demonstrates. But go ahead. Make my day. Ignore me. You don't seem to have the courage to stick with it anyway, or the grace to simply admit it when you are wrong.