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https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-...tical/12729740
Trump claims medicines are miracles from God, clearly he has no idea what a miracle is and I'm wondering how come Hydroxycloroquine didn't keep him safe, that was supposed to be Trump's miracle drug?
Physician historian Jacalyn Duffin has examined Vatican sources on 1400 miracles Overwhelmingly the miracles cited in canonizations between 1588 and 1999 are healings, and the majority entail medical care and physician testimony.
https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/me...s-in-miracles/Quote:
The Church has no difficulty in turning to scientific expertise because it just sees the work of science as part of our work on earth as ordained by God. They see no contradiction in questioning the world and what has happened by asking for scientific testimony along with religious testimony.
Is HC a miracle drug in the fight against the virus? No. If it was, we’d know by now. But it does seem to help in certain cases, such as when administered early to patients with no underlying conditions, or as a prophylactic for front line personnel. The President is old and overweight . So he has 2 underlying issues .
Recent news on HQ confirms it's effectiveness for patients it applies to .https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN26N3F1Quote:
In a series of randomized controlled trials, the malaria drug hydroxychloroquine did not show a statistically significant impact on the prevention or treatment of COVID-19. But when data from five of those trials were combined, researchers found that early use of the drug by people who were not hospitalized yielded a statistically significant 24% reduction in risk of infection, hospitalization or death.
In Michigan, a study of more than 2,500 patients at six Detroit-area hospitals found that HC, administered early, significantly cut the death rate. “Our analysis shows that that using hydroxychloroquine helped save lives,” said Steven Kalkanis, CEO of the Henry Ford Health System. “It needs to be used early,” he added. “It needs to be used in a hospital setting.”
https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/...reatment-study
In New York City, researchers with the Mt. Sinai Health System studying more than 6000 patients with Covid-19 found they died at a lower rate when treated with HC. In the study, after adjusting for other risk factors, the Mt. Sinai researchers found that “hydroxychloroquine use was associated with decreased in-hospital mortality.”
https://link.springer.com/article/10...06-020-05983-z
A massive study of more than 300,000 people in India , including front line medical personnel, found that HC provided prophylactic benefits. “The task force of medical experts, including physicians and super specialists, have recommend and backed the drive to administer HC in cluster areas and high exposure cases,” a senior medical official told the Indian Express. “The benefits seem to far outweigh the debate around its risks and it has certainly helped in implementing the preventive strategies.”
https://indianexpress.com/article/in...egins-6486049/
I am glad he is taking Regeneron's antibody cocktail. I have owned stock in Regeneron since it was a start up.
Augustine said that miracles are not contrary to nature .....only to our understanding of nature .
Tom I know this, I have seen miracles, not drug induced cures, for Trump to suggest it is a miracle mocks God and you don't want to do that
God works in mysterious ways....Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
you know what really mocks God . Professing to be a Catholic and then being pro-abortion , (that is of course if that is what Quid believes . He has changed his position multiple times since 1973 ;being dragged along by his party) .
Calling a drug a miracle in contemporary English lexicon is to say that it is a very effective medical treatment that cures very difficult diseases to cure .
I think that's a little over the top. I hear people rather frequently refer to God's providence as "a miracle". They don't intend that to be taken too literally. It's just a way, in many cases, to simply say that ultimately, God is to be praised for their provision.Quote:
for Trump to suggest it is a miracle mocks God and you don't want to do that
Exactly, exactly correct. Thank you for saying it.Quote:
you know what really mocks God . Professing to be a Catholic and then being pro-abortion , (that is of course if that is what Quid believes . He has changed his position multiple times since 1973 ;being dragged along by his party) .
Yes if he saved Trump it is mysterious but then..............................Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Trump seems to be knocking himself to become a COVID martyr -- takes unapproved meds, gets out of bed and sits fully dressed and maskless at a desk importantly signing a blank sheet of paper, leaves the hospital for a short drive (in a hermetically sealed SUV, germs wildly floating around inside) so he can wave to anyone who's looking....Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Oh? So you can understand God saving, let's say, YOU, but not Trump? Wow. What a statement. I sincerely hope that surely I misunderstood your comment.Quote:
Yes if he saved Trump it is mysterious but then..............................
I'm sure there are many Christian people praying for Trump, and maybe he will answer them in the affirmative, but let us pray he gives Trump some common sense that would be a miracle. as to Trump, he too can be saved just as all of us can, but it takes true faith in GodQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Psalm 52
Oooh
Why do you boast of, evil?
Oh, you mighty men
Why do you boast all of the day
Your ways are disgraceful in the eyes of the Lord
Your tongue plots destruction like a blade
You wallow in deceit
And you love evil more than good
And you love lies
And every harmful word, oh lying tongue
Oooh
Surely God will bring you down to
Everlasting ruin
He will uproot you from the land
Then the righteous, they will see and
They will see and fear
They will laugh at him and they will say
Here is the one
The one who did not make the Lord his strength
But trusted in his wealth
And he grew strong, destroying others
Oooh
But I am like an olive tree
Flourishing in the house of God
I trust in Him, in His unfailing love
And I will praise You evermore
For all the things that You have done
And I will hope, I will hope in Your name
For Your name is good
And I will praise You
And I will sing
In the presence of Your saints
Why does the loony right-wing always refer to pro-CHOICE as pro-abortion? The majority of those who support people choosing abortion for themselves are personally against abortion for THEMselves. They support CHOICE, not ABORTION. Why is the distinction so hard to understand?
'Clete - love that Psalm, I'm a big fan of the Psalms - greatest religious poetry ever composed, maybe best ANY poetry ever.
It's all about "freedom" I think I heard of it spoken once before freedom to live was obliviated by misguided views on what constitutes freedomQuote:
Originally Posted by Athos
yes Athos it is amazing what the Spirit of the Lord comes up with when speaking through men but how David anticipated Trump so accurately we can only put down to god given inspiration
hmm . I would never murder but I approve others rights to choose committing murder . You can't be pro choice without being pro abortion. Pro Choice is the vague term used to justify being pro abortion. “Freedom to choose what ?”
Freedom to CHOOSE to have or to not have an abortion. What is so hard to understand? If pro-choice is vague then so is pro-life.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Your premise is faulty. To most people, abortion is NOT murder. A fetus is not a child for at least two-thirds of the gestation period. That is one of the positions of the pro-choice faction. The pro-choice people understand that the anti-abortion people claim human life begins at conception.
That has been discussed and argued about frequently here. There's no need to hash it all out again with no conclusion in sight that is satisfactory to both sides. Each side has given their point of view.
had to respond when you called my position that of the 'loony right-wing'; and yes I have no intention to rehash it except to respond to your reply . Science is on my side . After birth a human goes through various stages of development baby ,youth ,teen years ,adult elderly etc. We all change. That is true before birth also . A single cell human zygote, or a more developed human embryo, or human fetus is a human being and that's the way they are supposed to look at those particular periods of development.
So where are the prolife policies that come with taking a woman's choice to carry a pregnancy to term? You don't get to walk away from prenatal care and counselling, childcare, schooling, teen issues, and education, or the raising of that child. Saying a woman should have thought of that before she did the deed...with a dude...is an inadequate cop out that belies the responsibility of that life when YOU make a choice to take her responsibility from her. No different than throwing a guy in jail and feeding the fool until he gets out. Humans require it so why make a baby a victim of your neglect after being unwanted in the first place?
The failure to admit you don't want the responsibility either, so it's okay to punish both mother and child is the hypocrisy of the so called pro-life crowd to hide their own deadbeat mentality, and visit it on everybody else. Science is no man made miracle but a discovery of the unknown oft speculated, and the miracle is when you APPLY what has been discovered. That requires education of FACTS and not just feelings which makes it a hot emotional topic.
Not just with the subject of abortions, but treatments and care for human sufferings that the discoverers want compensation for the research and work that was put in, so excluding those that can't pay. It's at that point that economics is introduced is when the disasters occur entirely man made, and the less than ideal outcomes are realized.
Because it is?Quote:
Why does the loony right-wing always refer to pro-CHOICE as pro-abortion?
Why are you "personally" against abortion? Isn't your position kind of like saying you would never torture a dog since you are personally opposed to it, but you don't want to restrict someone else's right to do so?Quote:
The majority of those who support people choosing abortion for themselves are personally against abortion for THEMselves.
Tal, you are basically saying that it's wrong to expect an adult to act like an adult and carry out her responsibilities to the child she became pregnant with. Same thing with the dad. It's the same as saying that we should expect adults to act like children.
You are exactly right. I don't want the responsibility. That's why I'm not the baby's father. And guess what? You don't either. If you did, you would be out there today working to help young moms and doing that with your own money. Saying that you want to force someone other than Tal to do it is not much of a moral position. Saying that the solution is to just kill the little unborn, unwanted bxstard doesn't strike me as a good solution. And THAT, like it or not, is the solution the "pro-choice" side is advocating for.
My response using loony right wing was because you have used Quid, Madmim, Emperor etc., as names of Democrats. I'd just as soon drop the whole insult thing if you will.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Good idea.Quote:
I'd just as soon drop the whole insult thing if you will.
No it is NOT.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
If you tortured your dog I would call the authorities since it is against most local laws. Unlike the pro life crowd that advocates murdering abortion doctors, shaming, and denying OTHER care for poor people.Quote:
Why are you "personally" against abortion? Isn't your position kind of like saying you would never torture a dog since you are personally opposed to it, but you don't want to restrict someone else's right to do so?
Bullying poor people is not my idea of good guidance or ministering to obvious needs. It's like putting a starving man in jail for stealing bread.Quote:
Tal, you are basically saying that it's wrong to expect an adult to act like an adult and carry out her responsibilities to the child she became pregnant with. Same thing with the dad. It's the same as saying that we should expect adults to act like children.
The responsibility is yours when you make the choice for her. Seems your way of doing things only applies to poor people though, exclusively it almost seems to be poor women, without regard to situation, circumstance, or aptitude. That is a blatant act of discrimination, no matter how you spin the prochoice position. Pro choicers often acknowledge the need for more services and educational support to HUMANELY help people through the trauma of their "MISTAKES".Quote:
You are exactly right. I don't want the responsibility. That's why I'm not the baby's father. And guess what? You don't either. If you did, you would be out there today working to help young moms and doing that with your own money. Saying that you want to force someone other than Tal to do it is not much of a moral position. Saying that the solution is to just kill the little unborn, unwanted bxstard doesn't strike me as a good solution. And THAT, like it or not, is the solution the "pro-choice" side is advocating for.
Screw your self serving inhumane right wing morality and spin.
What is or is not against the law is not the point. Millions of people around the world have been killed "legally". So I guess you are OK with that since it was not in violation of the laws in existence at that time???
Asking people to be responsible is "bullying"? Well, that is pretty wild.
If you think only poor people go to abortion clinics, you should come to the one I carry a sign at. You would find you are completely deceived. You should see the cars that come in. If those people are poor, then we all need to become poor so we can buy a 50K pickup truck. You're just barking about discrimination to make yourself feel better. You don't care about those women. If you did, you would be trying to help them. Bottom line...you don't know what you're talking about. Any woman who goes in that place can get help by simply asking. And you know who gives the help? If you said the pro-aborts, you would be completely wrong. They are only interested in getting the money. It is ONLY the pro-lifers who give support. That is, of course, unless they take your preferred route and let the clinic kill that bothersome, unwanted, pesky little human being so liberal dems won't have to worry about it anymore. You really like that, Tal? "Kill the little bothersome brat and let me get on my life." That's how it is, my friend.
I sometimes get tired of talking with people who type messages from the safety of their homes and never get out and see how things really are. Put your eyes on the situation and see for yourself. Go to your local clinic. Talk with the pro-lifers. Talk with the women. Don't tell me you've done that because we both know you haven't. Learn a little, and then you can speak intelligently.
Even if THREE methods of birth control are used, as attested to by female members of this site, a pregnancy can result. Thus, let's bring back chastity belts and institute reversible vasectomies.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The anti-abortion crowd prefers "millions of babies murdered" to reversible vasectomies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I read the link re J. Duffin and her defense of miracles is simply, "It's a miracle if the recipient believes it's a miracle". That's a nice sentiment but it's hardly science. You seem to be supporting Vatican claims of miracles (1400 of them) but there is no proof of such claims in the article. I'm confused about what your point is.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Completely ridiculous statement with no basis in fact. Why would a pro-life person care about a man getting a vasectomy? And if being Catholic is a problem, then stop being a Catholic, get the vasectomy, and go to a Protestant church.Quote:
The anti-abortion crowd prefers "millions of babies murdered" to reversible vasectomies.
As to birth control not working, I don't think the answer is to just kill the unborn human being. Is that your solution? "Just kill the unwanted brat!" Is that how it works for you?
What's your solution?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Have the baby. Need support? Come see the pro-lifers and you will get abundant help. I like my solution a lot better than the typical liberal dem's answer of just killing the unwanted, inconvenient little human being.
You asked a question which I quickly answered, but you did not answer my question. Perhaps you didn't see it, so I'll repeat it. "I don't think the answer is to just kill the unborn human being. Is that your solution?"
Do you seriously consider zygotes to be human life? When there are enormously more zygotes that are killed through menstruation than continue to development and birth, why are these products of menstruation not buried as humans are buried? Why are there no funeral services for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Science can tell us when human life begins from a biological point of view. But do you agree that there is more to human life than biology? Much more? Christianity addresses this by its story in Genesis of Adam and Eve being directly created by God. They are clearly not human life until God breathes life into them - human life or "ensoulment". They are also clearly full-grown adults. Zygotes are not made "in God's image".
The point: Science ignores, as it should, the essential quality of being human which obviously does not occur until some later time in the womb and obviously does not exist in a zygote. So who or what determines the beginning of human life as described here? Religon has an answer as does philosophy. Neither is perfectly true, but it is an attempt to answer the question.
For thousands of years, human life was thought to begin at "quickening" - the sensation a woman feels as the fetus is stirring in her womb. This was Aristotle's belief. Others believe a heart is the beginning of human life, still others the brain. Viability outside the womb is an indicator of human life's beginning. All are far beyond the zygote stage - which occurs at conception. It takes about 24 weeks for a fetus to live outside the womb.
Not until the late 19th century does human life beginning at conception enter the discussion. By the early 20th century, the Catholic Church had declared abortion to be mortal sin.
Coincidentally, a woman's movement had started around 1850 as women began to enter more fully into what was then a male-dominated society. Both voting and working appeared to be other than woman's traditional role in the home. Forbidding abortion was one way to keep woman tied to the home. In this view, abortion has its roots as murder in the anti-feminist movement of the 19th and 20th centuries. It would last until 1973.
You seem to be arguing that unless there is a funeral service, the living being is not human. Wouldn't that be a clearly silly idea?Quote:
Do you seriously consider zygotes to be human life? When there are enormously more zygotes that are killed through menstruation than continue to development and birth, why are these products of menstruation not buried as humans are buried? Why are there no funeral services for them?
So we are not humans made in God's image until we become adults? Uh oh. Better hide your kids from the liberal dems.Quote:
They are also clearly full-grown adults. Zygotes are not made "in God's image".
I have never agreed with the, "It's not a living human being," argument. It is plainly living. If it's not human, then what is it? Very plainly, from the moment of conception, it is a separate, living human being.
You mentioned the viability issue. Should the day come, and it will, when viability is pushed back to 16 or 12 weeks, or even earlier, will you revise your description of when human life begins to 16 or 12 weeks? And since you use 24 weeks, do you consider abortions after 24 weeks to be the killing of a human being?
Not at all. I am pointing out the absurdity of considering zygotes as human life. That should have been pretty obvious to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Again, not at all. I was making the point that God himself made life in his image which was hardly a zygote.Quote:
So we are not humans made in God's image until we become adults?
1. Your quote. "...why are these products of menstruation not buried as humans are buried? Why are there no funeral services for them?" Now if you don't have to have a funeral to be human, then why would it be necessary to bury a zygote for us to consider it human? Besides, when a zygote dies, the mother is typically unaware of it which would certainly at least partially explain why there is no funeral.
2. You pointed out that Adam was an adult when God breathed the breath of life into him. Now he was not a zygote, but he was also not a teen-ager or a child. So unless you want to extend your argument to those exceptions as well, then your point makes no sense.
I'd still like for you to answer this. "You mentioned the viability issue. Should the day come, and it will, when viability is pushed back to 16 or 12 weeks, or even earlier, will you revise your description of when human life begins to 16 or 12 weeks? And since you use 24 weeks, do you consider abortions after 24 weeks to be the killing of a human being?"
I'm not okay with the taking of life period but humans are quite good at a variety of ways to do that for a variety of reasons. All pretty stupid on there face, mostly whim and impulse. Flawed choices all except hunger and self defense. Fear is not a good reason, though we have laws accepting that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You aren't asking, you demand responsibility from poor often little educated and helpless people. They are the ones you seek to punish. You do not affect those with education and resources.Quote:
Asking people to be responsible is "bullying"? Well, that is pretty wild.
Please explain how you know that people are going to health clinics, like PP, and others just for abortions? Is that the only services they offer?Quote:
If you think only poor people go to abortion clinics, you should come to the one I carry a sign at. You would find you are completely deceived. You should see the cars that come in. If those people are poor, then we all need to become poor so we can buy a 50K pickup truck. You're just barking about discrimination to make yourself feel better. You don't care about those women. If you did, you would be trying to help them. Bottom line...you don't know what you're talking about. Any woman who goes in that place can get help by simply asking. And you know who gives the help? If you said the pro-aborts, you would be completely wrong. They are only interested in getting the money. It is ONLY the pro-lifers who give support. That is, of course, unless they take your preferred route and let the clinic kill that bothersome, unwanted, pesky little human being so liberal dems won't have to worry about it anymore. You really like that, Tal? "Kill the little bothersome brat and let me get on my life." That's how it is, my friend.
You should never assume what another has experienced or risk making a bigger A$$ of yourself than you have proved to be by assuming. In fact I've checked all the boxes many, many times. Honestly I'm still learning and understanding after decades of actually doing.Quote:
I sometimes get tired of talking with people who type messages from the safety of their homes and never get out and see how things really are. Put your eyes on the situation and see for yourself. Go to your local clinic. Talk with the pro-lifers. Talk with the women. Don't tell me you've done that because we both know you haven't. Learn a little, and then you can speak intelligently.
Protestors at clinics would rather holler and shame and spit rather than TALK.
Of course you are. You routinely vote for advocates of abortion which is the taking of a human life, period.Quote:
I'm not okay with the taking of life period
I'm not demanding anything. I suggest that people get married prior to sex. That way when pregnancy happens, there are two people in the equation to help, but they are free to do as they please. If a single mom asks for help, she can get lots of it from the pro-lifers. She will get nothing but a bill from your pro-abortion buddies. I will never, ever, ever adopt your strategy of just killing those pesky, unwanted children.Quote:
You aren't asking, you demand responsibility from poor often little educated and helpless people. They are the ones you seek to punish. You do not affect those with education and resources.
The place we go to is an abortion clinic. That's the business they do. If you ever trouble yourself to go look for yourself, you'll find out.
I don't believe for one second that you've ever spent 5 minutes at an abortion clinic speaking with protestors and the women going in.Quote:
In fact I've checked all the boxes many, many times.
Says the man who's too busy typing on a message board to get off his rear end and go do as I've suggested. Just a lot easier to cast accusations at people who spend their time trying to save the lives that you seem to care nothing at all about.Quote:
Protestors at clinics would rather holler and shame and spit rather than TALK.
I did. Did you?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Thus, he's free to walk out -- which he does when he hears about the pregnancy.Quote:
That way when pregnancy happens, there are two people in the equation to help, but they are free to do as they please.
It was to show the absurdity of (fully) human life beginning at conception. You appear to have overlooked the absurdity by your question.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Again, you are diving into the absurdity by your question.The woman is aware of it during menstruation. Look up "menstruation" to understand your own question.Quote:
Besides, when a zygote dies, the mother is typically unaware of it which would certainly at least partially explain why there is no funeral.
I took the example from the book of Genesis in the Bible. If God had created mankind as a teenager or a child, the Bible would have said so - and so would I.Quote:
2. You pointed out that Adam was an adult when God breathed the breath of life into him. Now he was not a zygote, but he was also not a teen-ager or a child. So unless you want to extend your argument to those exceptions as well, then your point makes no sense.
Viability at 24 weeks is an average. It can be somewhat longer or sooner. In any case, viability was mentioned along with the heart and the brain as ways some determine the beginning of life. As for me, I believe Roe V. Wade is the best rule available re abortion.Quote:
I'd still like for you to answer this. "You mentioned the viability issue. Should the day come, and it will, when viability is pushed back to 16 or 12 weeks, or even earlier, will you revise your description of when human life begins to 16 or 12 weeks? And since you use 24 weeks, do you consider abortions after 24 weeks to be the killing of a human being?"
These are very old arguments canvassed many times on AMHD maybe a new SCOTUS will reverse previous decisions but it won't stop abortion, the slaughter of the innocents will continue as people worship in the temple of self
Yes.Quote:
I did. Did you?
It does happen, but it's much less likely that the boyfriend walking out, and the hub who walks out gets hit with alimony and child support as well he should. It is still a much, much better situation.Quote:
Thus, he's free to walk out -- which he does when he hears about the pregnancy.
I certainly didn't walk out. Did your husband?
Athos, the woman is not aware of a fertilized egg that never implants.
You can't appeal to Adam. Your logic made no sense.
I do appreciate you answering the question. I am dismayed that you brought up the issue of viability and then proceeded to toss it out, but at least you did answer the question.
If I were the child and my father disppears or walks out because I exist, I'd rather be dead. I'd want to be born into a stable situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Nope. I've been stuck with him for over 50 years.Quote:
I certainly didn't walk out. Did your husband?
So you're suggesting we just kill the child at that point? I mean it's obvious you are suggesting it would make an abortion acceptable, so if that's the case, then why not a six year old?Quote:
If I were the child and my father disppears or walks out because I exist, I'd rather be dead. I'd want to be born into a stable situation.
I was a principal and teacher for more than thirty years. I saw MANY kids go through that exact situation. Not a single one ever indicated they would rather be dead. Your conjecture is very sad.
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