https://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...6f2fb97ee50629

the latest and the best conspiracy theory to date, cov19 is a chinese hoax, an attack directed at the world economies to promote China and gain the upper hand economically. Does anyone think it strange that after a successful lockdown of Wuhan, China has emerged with a low rate of infection while the rest of the world has suffered economic degradation by following the same plan. This makes the Chinese system of government seem highly successful. Of course, it hasn't come without a kick in the bum as firms withdraw from China and relocate to other low cost countries and renewed calls for investigation into how the pandemic started as the Chinese narrative is only believed by the most niaive. Along with this is the number of infections in the US could discredit Trump and estabilise the US. Perhaps this virus is specifically targetted at a specific genetic group, Italians and southern europeans are very susceptable and there are many related in the US but look at the effect in Italy and Spain and related races

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Originally Posted by paraclete

https://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...6f2fb97ee50629

the latest and the best conspiracy theory to date, cov19 is a chinese hoax, an attack directed at the world economies to promote China and gain the upper hand economically. Does anyone think it strange that after a successful lockdown of Wuhan, China has emerged with a low rate of infection while the rest of the world has suffered economic degradation by following the same plan. This makes the Chinese system of government seem highly successful. Of course, it hasn't come without a kick in the bum as firms withdraw from China and relocate to other low cost countries and renewed calls for investigation into how the pandemic started as the Chinese narrative is only believed by the most niaive. Along with this is the number of infections in the US could discredit Trump and estabilise the US. Perhaps this virus is specifically targetted at a specific genetic group, Italians and southern europeans are very susceptable and there are many related in the US but look at the effect in Italy and Spain and related races

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In my own mind it matters little what the Chinese do or say, but how we handle what has happened and whether it was intentional or not you either let this thing run rampant, or get it under control. For sure most nations have the national discipline for control, and the social safety net to help its citizens through a shutdown and the economic pain it causes. Safety comes first and unfortunately the US has none of that going for it, and no leadership to effectively address it. That can't be blamed on China, or the virus to be frank about it.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

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In my own mind it matters little what the Chinese do or say, but how we handle what has happened and whether it was intentional or not you either let this thing run rampant, or get it under control. For sure most nations have the national discipline for control, and the social safety net to help its citizens through a shutdown and the economic pain it causes. Safety comes first and unfortunately the US has none of that going for it, and no leadership to effectively address it. That can't be blamed on China, or the virus to be frank about it.

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So in your mind Trump is responsible even if it is a targetted attack

He is responsible for the atrocious response to the virus YES! He knew it would be a major disaster yet he tells everybody to ignore it and go about their business. You call that responsible?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

He is responsible for the atrocious response to the virus YES! He knew it would be a major disaster yet he tells everybody to ignore it and go about their business. You call that responsible?

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He was trying the Swedish approach, from an economic perspective it seems logical, from a medical perspective maybe not, but the death rate is no higher than pre CV19, so maybe it was just a wake up call to focus on what is important. The point being that mass panic gets noone anywhere and if you looked at China maybe it wasn't going to be as bad as predicted. He couldn't have known that the US was particularly succeptable which makes my contention that the virus was engineered viable

The Swede rate of infection is no more or less than their European counterparts . But unlike other European nations ,they remain open for business. The only effect on their economy is how the rest of the world reacted to it and that impact on the global market .
Watching the virus circumnavigate the world and coming back for a second helping makes it hard to make the case that any one person could've had an impact in the spread of the virus except Chinese officials who downplayed the virus to the WHO. Also as I have documented more than once ;if anything Trump was ahead of the curve in responding . He was acting on it while the Dems were obsessed in trying to impeach him . I documented the government response through January /February . I will not post it again .
The Chinese coverup is indisputable . The question of the virus origin is only what's in doubt . I have since learned that Chinese workers cleaning a mine of bat guano were the first to contract the virus and that was in 2012
https://nypost.com/2020/08/15/covid-...12-scientists/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...rt/ar-BB19us3x

yeah I'm sure SOME countries are .
Sweden survived the 1st wave and it appears that the nations that went into lock down are experiencing a second wave.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Also as I have documented more than once ;if anything Trump was ahead of the curve in responding

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Take the blinders off, tom. Nobody but you is defending the Trump failure to act timely to avoid 80% of the to-date 205,000 deaths.

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I documented the government response through January /February . I will not post it again

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Good you won't post it again. It was worthless as others pointed out at the time. We all now know that while Trump was publicly calling COVID a hoax, he was privately aware it was a deadly virus. His silence was putting the economy ahead of American lives so he could win re-election. Sad that I have to tell you this.

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The Chinese coverup is indisputable .

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That does nothing to relieve Trump of his failed responsibility.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

yeah I'm sure SOME countries are .
Sweden survived the 1st wave and it appears that the nations that went into lock down are experiencing a second wave.

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The key word is "went". Lockdown slowed the spread and as they reopen the spread continues ergo the faster the reopening, the faster the spread, so it's not the second wave, but a continuation of the first. In addition the more that the safety protocols are ignored the more the virus spreads.

In that context even Sweden isn't out of the woods yet, just like the rest

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The key word is "went". Lockdown slowed the spread and as they reopen the spread continues ergo the faster the reopening, the faster the spread, so it's not the second wave, but a continuation of the first. In addition the more that the safety protocols are ignored the more the virus spreads.

In that context even Sweden isn't out of the woods yet, just like the rest

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https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/sw...ve-92968517951

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/w...-strategy.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...es-since-march

don't worry Sweden has Greta, she will say how dare you and the virus will be gone

Amazing how we rush to holler success when it's obvious that Sweden is unique and what they do works for them for NOW, but could hardly be duplicated elsewhere with any long term positive outcomes.

I'm not sure it worked, tal, they kept their economy open but now they face a second wave. They benefited from being a little more remote

A very different culture and life style for sure. I read half the population already lives alone.

You know this looks more and more like a targetted attack, just like the plot of the series Condor with a little twist, of course. Actually not stranger than fiction

It's shameful every other nation is dealing with this virus better than the so called greatest nation in history. If China wanted to make us look stupid they certainly have done that. Heck it's not like we were all that good looking before the virus.

It looks like a targetted attack to me, you are very susceptible, just like the European nations are very susceptible

Any place with high population density has the potential to spread the virus very quickly.

Tal, it is more than that, the virus is genetically engineered. How was China able to get it under control so quickly and keep it under control, it is because their population are not so susceptible

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How was China able to get it under control so quickly and keep it under control, it is because their population are not so susceptible

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That is a presumption without evidence . The Chinese are not exactly transparent . Even so ,I'm sure their complete lock downs like they did at Wuhan is completely unacceptable to free people .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

That is a presumption without evidence . The Chinese are not exactly transparent . Even so ,I'm sure their complete lock downs like they did at Wuhan is completely unacceptable to free people .

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No Tom some free people have submitted to lockdowns, the Australian state of Victoria is an example, and the rest of us had a month lockdown at the start of the pandemic and are largely CV19 free today. But you americans would rather be free to spread the virus, how is that doing for you, not so well?

I still say the virus was engineered and europeans are particularly susceptible

That's our problem, Clete, freedom has nothing to do with getting this virus under control no matter how hard some try to make it the issue. None of us knew how fragile our economy really was that it could be so easily destroyed by a bug.

That's a pretty hard thing to accept.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

But you americans would rather be free to spread the virus, how is that doing for you, not so well?

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That's partially true, 'clete. But a very big part of our poor reaction to the virus is Trump encouraging everyone to do the opposite to what is and was necessary.

He mocks masks, he refuses to take action to use the Defense Protection Act, he claimed (for too long) it was a hoax invented by Dems, he made several totally false statements about COVID that were criticized by his own scientists, and he continues to lead Americans astray with his false BS.

He is now starting to hold rallies again with people packed next to each other. His comments this morning re his Mussolini Balcony Speech yesterday was incredibly revealing. He spoke again and again about how safe he was, how far from the crowd below, and how great he was feeling, and that he was "cured".

It was all about Trump - not a single word about the two thousand souls who had gathered to hear him packed in like sardines and mostly without masks.

Had he closely followed science as more information was known over time, we would have about 80% fewer deaths as the toll is now over 213,000 and growing. The figure of 80% is what the scientists have come up with after examining all facets of the response.

The prognosis is not good as long as Trump has the bully pulpit.

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No Tom some free people have submitted to lockdowns, the Australian state of Victoria is an example, and the rest of us had a month lockdown at the start of the pandemic and are largely CV19 free today.

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Sorry you are just plain wrong .No other people locked down to the extent that the Chinese imposed. Theirs was draconian and only an authoritarian state like China (or someone like Quid would like to do here ) could get away with it in a free state . They had a cordon sanitaire on the whole city of Wuhan and two other cities nearby. Starting February 2,suspected or mild cases; and even healthy close contacts of confirmed cases ;were sent to makeshift hospitals and quarantine centers. This involved turning hundreds of hotels, schools into quarantine centers . They built a new hospital and created 14 more in public housing . 40,000 medical workers were bused in from all over China, and the city’s residents were sealed into their homes. It is all documented in a movie by Chinese artist Ai Weiwei called 'Coronation ' . It shows the efficiency of the dictatorial state as well as the crushing brutality that goes along with that efficiency. You will be hard pressed to find it at more traditional outlets like Netflix Amazon because they fear the Chinese backlash . But it is available in sites like Vimeo .
The description on Vimeo tells it all .

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China has assumed the status of superpower on the global stage, yet it remains poorly understood by other nations. Through the lens of the pandemic, “Coronation” clearly depicts the Chinese crisis management and social control machine—through surveillance, ideological brainwashing, and brute determination to control every aspect of society. The film shows the changes that took place in a city and in individual space under the impact of the virus; it illustrates the value of individual life in the political environment, reflecting on the difficulties we face as individuals and countries in the context of globalization. Ultimately, the result is a society lacking trust, transparency, and respect for humanity. Despite the impressive scale and speed of the Wuhan lockdown, we face a more existential question: can civilization survive without humanity? Can nations rely on one another without transparency or trust?

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https://vimeo.com/ondemand/267483/449847367


people were forced into quarantine and forced to take medications .

https://www.texarkanagazette.com/new...asures/839705/

Clete you love their methods so much ;go move there . The fact is that first they covered up the extent of the virus in China . They lied to the world from November to February . And they imposed draconian lock down on their cities while also permitting travel outside of China.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

No other people locked down to the extent that the Chinese imposed. Theirs was draconian and only an authoritarian state like China

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Agree with this. Especially when I learn what the Chinese are doing with the Muslims in Western China (with Trump's approval).

They have been persecuting the Uighurs for years ;long before Trump(at least since 1966) . Where is your evidence of "Trump's approval" ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Where is your evidence of "Trump's approval" ?

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After being confronted with the charge, Trump explained that he held off on punishing the Chinese for their forced internment of the Uighers in mass detention camps to avoid placing ongoing trade negotiations in jeopardy.


The New York Post reported that the source was the interpreter at the G20 meeting in 2019. Another source was a high-placed administration official, Matt Pottinger, who told John Bolton that Trump had approved of the camps. Trump later called Bolton a liar, saying that “everybody in the White House hated him”.


Trump has consistently expressed hostility toward Muslims dating from the beginning of his presidency when he tried to prevent them from migrating to America.

If that is the case the all of America is complicit in approving a genocide against the Uighurs .I have commented about it frequently . America was always more interested in forging business relations with the Chinese and overlooked the crime.

As an example ;the emperor was President for 8 years during China's genocide and did nothing despite pleas by the Uighurs .

https://www.uyghurcongress.org/en/wh...-on-activists/

Both houses of Congress were late to the game too. Their sanction bill was passed in June ,and Trump signed it immediately . Surely the Chinese would've made an issue of Trump's approval if it true .

Trump holding off sanctions in an attempt to complete a trade deal is a far cry from Bolton's outrageous and unconfirmed claim that Trump encouraged XI to build concentration camps . That claim comes from a futile attempt by Bolton to write a book anyone would actually read.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Clete you love their methods so much ;go move there . The fact is that first they covered up the extent of the virus in China . They lied to the world from November to February . And they imposed draconian lock down on their cities while also permitting travel outside of China.

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Really Tom the strawman argument, I don't love their methods, but they obviously did what needed to be done to contain the virus in Wuhan, pity you didn't do the same in New York. permitting travel outside China feeds into the conspiracy theory that they wanted to spread the virus. Italy suffered early and had a large Chinese population but I continue to say the virus is engineered, particularly to play to european susceptibilities

I'm sure you consider our methods draconian too, closing borders and locking down parts of the country but it has resulted in many fewer deaths and limited community transmission

That's some theory considering every human population on Earth is infected and rising as they are trying to restore economic activity. The dufus has a cure though just like Vlad has one already. Dufusites would rather live free and die than do what it takes to control the virus.

That messages comes from the top along with a bunch of other complete nonsense.

so tal are you also signing on to the Chinese solution ..... locking people in their homes until the virus magically goes away ? Suppose this is the next flu that doesn't go away . Then what ?
Clete's theory is absurd. Cases in the US are not race dependent . In fact cases are higher in minority communities
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ethnicity.html

To date there have been 7 million cases in India .

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Originally Posted by talaniman

That's some theory considering every human population on Earth is infected and rising as they are trying to restore economic activity. The dufus has a cure though just like Vlad has one already. Dufusites would rather live free and die than do what it takes to control the virus.

That messages comes from the top along with a bunch of other complete nonsense.

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Absurd? the only people who have large populations and don't have large numbers of cases is China, if they are to be believed. Why don't they have millions of cases? All the races who have large numbers of infections are not east asian, sure looks suspicous to me

Maybe unlike China, those countries cannot do a darn thing about the virus, or have no will or technology to do so. Absurd? Maybe, but not the word I would use. Tragic is more like it as a man made disaster intentional or not has to be dealt with, just like any other disaster that is visited on us humans. Even if its a Chinese plot, what should we do about it?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Maybe unlike China, those countries cannot do a darn thing about the virus, or have no will or technology to do so. Absurd? Maybe, but not the word I would use. Tragic is more like it as a man made disaster intentional or not has to be dealt with, just like any other disaster that is visited on us humans. Even if its a Chinese plot, what should we do about it?

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visit misery upon them

I'm all ears!

You don't have to do anything you are not already doing, the backlash of CV19 is leaving their industries devastated with many businesses migrating, so just continue the trend and withdraw from China, if they act on Taiwan you will have to anyway, so get on with it. Japan has provided a bounty for industries returning from China, do likewise, but there are other allies who could benefit from such an approach, the Philippines, India, Pakistan to name a few of the many

They are rapidly talking themselves out of benefiting from our industries thinking they will devastate us, but the opposite is true, for every door that closes another opens