it's the Jacobins . Robespierre whipped them into a frenzy and they guillotined everyone who opposed them . Eventually they guillotined Robespierre also . Think Gotham when Bane took control of the city ........"We take Gotham from the corrupt! The rich! The oppressors of generations who have kept you down with myths of opportunity, and we give it back to you... the people. Gotham is yours. None shall interfere. Do as you please. Start by storming Blackgate (Bastille ), and freeing the oppressed(the dope from Park Slope emptying Ryker's ) ! Step forward those who would serve. For an army will be raised. The powerful will be ripped from their decadent nests, and cast out into the cold world that we know and endure. (Kangaroo) Courts will be convened. Spoils will be enjoyed(looting ) . Blood will be shed. The police will survive, as they learn to serve true justice(defund ) . This great city... it will endure. Gotham will survive!"

......or they could be the American Taliban .Leftists take out Democrats. Progressives take out liberals. Socialists take out progressives , and soon socialists will be taken out by hard leftists, Communists, anarchists, and nihilists. Only Antifa will emerge as pure. The moderate Dems including Quid Pro Joe are having a collectiveapology conga line for their past centrism, in fear of being politically guillotined. It is reported that Sandinista Bill had to answer to his daughter for his white privilege. Kamala Harris is bowing to All Out Crazy's agenda ,including the green new deal and apologizing for he past support for tough and necessary law enforcement . The Clintoons had better watch their back . They fail on multiple counts on the new purity test .
The Taliban destroyed history in an effort to purge Afghanistan culture so it can easily absorb their ideas of what a pure Afghan society should be . This week a statue of a confederate officer was knocked down in Kentucky who later became a US Army General after the war and became a great friend and advocate of Blacks and he even supported the suffragette movement . But you know ,he did not pass that purity test . So if he is forever condemned then Quid Pro Joe should also be condemned forever for his support of legislation that put thousands of minorities in jail ...... right ?

Tom, I have no doubt there are many who don't pass the purity test, not sure I would although I have never been a slave owner of fought in ultra conservative causes, but there is no doubt there are many who will not forgive the mistakes of history because they have skin in the game that we do not. For them, it is personal, no matter how many generations have passed. Whether the race be jew or African, or some other persecuted minority injustice will never be paid for until they can subject others to the same vile deeds.

As One Australian Senator reminds the Parliament; "all lives matter" because it is justice that must be available to all, let us remember that the actions of a few deserve condemnation but the whole community must not pay the price

There are and always will be a group that wants something and willing to go to extremes to get it, but you wouldn't have to hear about black lives matter if you truly believed all lives matter. It's like the words of the founding documents all men were created equal except slaves and other low class people. Changes have been made and more to come. You know the old saying...pay me now, or pay me (MORE) later...and the interests builds. You don't have to listen though, but you won't ignore, or dismiss.

Antifa is but the latest whipping boy to compare others we don't like too, and for sure they are dangerous nuts. Where's Batman when you need him? Who broke the bat signal?

Bat signal, fantacy won't get you out of this one, there is no Superman upholding the american way and shouting about truth and justice. Not sure he would want to

Dreams are the American way Clete, as are the nightmares of the loonies.

"all lives matter" Clete this comment disqualifies you in purity test

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There are and always will be a group that wants something and willing to go to extremes to get it, but you wouldn't have to hear about black lives matter if you truly believed all lives matter. It's like the words of the founding documents all men were created equal except slaves and other low class people. Changes have been made and more to come. You know the old saying...pay me now, or pay me (MORE) later...and the interests builds. You don't have to listen though, but you won't ignore, or dismiss.

Antifa is but the latest whipping boy to compare others we don't like too, and for sure they are dangerous nuts. Where's Batman when you need him? Who broke the bat signal?

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Antifa proved my point by occupying a part of Seattle and putting up the equivalent of the French revolutionaries 'Barricades ' .
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkel.../#2eb7e26e73f8
From what I am hearing they are extracting tribute from local businesses in the occupied areas which makes them pirates . You know my answer .... as Napoleon said ...'give em a whiff of grape shot '. Why should they be treated better than the Branch Davidians ?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-p...sses-extortion

Wonder why nobody has called 911? Kind of strange, but states rights prevail. Leave it to them. The next election will straighten this out. One way or another.

The Seattle police abandoned their precinct . No it is not a state matter if the state is unwilling or unable to control insurrection . The Constitution is clear . The role of the Federal government is to 'insure domestic tranquility and to provide for the common defense . American citizens inside the so called 'autonomous zone ' are being held against their will and are being forced to pay tribute at the point of a gun . I could defeat these panty waists in 1 hr. Just cut off internet access to their cell phones.

They are in for the long haul . They planted a garden .
https://i.postimg.cc/nz2k7j7w/image.png

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Originally Posted by tomder55

"all lives matter" Clete this comment disqualifies you in purity test

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Yes I don't see the point of pandering to 3% of the population, but it is different in your case, you don't live in a national park populated with special cases. You have a legacy that we don't have, our experience is different and therefore I don't see why we should be caught up in this hysteria when all lives matter here. We are not over policed, every person has some sort of income and health care, so I don't see how your purity test applies unless it is that I can say you fail mine

I don't care too much either . I just think it is hilarious when they start eating their own like the Jacobins did when they eventually offed Robespierre because he could not pass the purity test . Take the latest example . Fiery liberal Dan Abrams had a great idea. He would host a reality show that would show what police work was really about . He is the son of civil rights lawyer Floyd Abrams and his progressive credentials are indisputable . His show 'Law and Crime ' was a smash hit on A&E and reached the top cable show in 2019 .His newest show Live PD was must see tv. It followed police doing their job for a half hour and the 2nd half hour was spent analyzing the police action . What they did right and /or wrong was openly aired . It was what everyone says they want ....transparency . It spoke an unspoken truth ;that cops are humans .It showed on live cam how tough their job is . But in the wake of the Floyd killing ,no show about cops can survive the pc world . We are living in a cancel culture and the left is calling all the shots . No cop show can survive. I don't even think McGruff the crime dog survives this Maoist cultural purge .

yes we have had those cops shows here too where cops from various countries do their thing and none were shown killing anyone but real life is different to reality TV, not that cops often kill anyone here but it does happen and we will get a riot if that person happens to be black, but world wide riots, it just shows the power of the media. It just shows the power of gun legislation as black people are unlikely to be armed here and so we don't have black on black killing

Comes down to how the law is applied and obviously the protests here are about the unequal application of the law and the racism at the root of it. Racism is also at the heart of the economic impacts on all peoples that are suppressed, oppressed, and exploited for profits. Not so much about race but class so it's no surprise we have those on both fringes getting attention for their radical antics and actions, rather than focusing on the issues involved that raise all boats.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Comes down to how the law is applied and obviously the protests here are about the unequal application of the law and the racism at the root of it. Racism is also at the heart of the economic impacts on all peoples that are suppressed, oppressed, and exploited for profits. Not so much about race but class so it's no surprise we have those on both fringes getting attention for their radical antics and actions, rather than focusing on the issues involved that raise all boats.

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In order to raise all boats first you must possess a boat, but when the one you have is leaky at best, you concentrate on bailing rather than fixing the leak, after your boat has sunk, as it has for so many in this pandemic, you get a violent response as all the anger is focused and race seems to be the focus. Minneapolis seems to be progressing to an interesting outcome, abandoning the traditional police force model, I will watch these developments

Over the years many cities have used this different policing model to good success as a way to improve the trust between the cops and community by actually having a vested relationship between them. Local networks work better than private fiefdoms.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/th...?ocid=msedgntp

yeah the big lie about Camden . My village could not afford a police force . So first it got rid of the police and their salaries and pensions and contracted with the county Sherriff Dept . That caused a dispute between the county and the township our village is in so now we pay the town the fee we paid the sheriff .We did not get rid of policing . We just shifted the responsibility around . We still get police protection and we still pay taxes for that purpose.

The misguiding headline suggests they 'got rid' of the police force Technically that is true . But that doesn't justly tell the story When my village could no longer afford it's own police force ,it outsourced policing to the county sheriff and township my village is in. It was budgetary concerns .Just like my village ,all they did was shift the burden around . No longer controlled by the primarily minority leadership of Camden City ;they shifted the responsibility to the county and state officials .The new force was called the Camden County Police Department (CCPD).The force level increased and the latest technology was introduced ,funded by Federal Grants and county taxes . NO Camden did not get rid of police .What they really did was subcontract the policing work to cops who now commute into the city instead of living there . 90 % of the city is minority . The police chief is white and there is only one black captain of the force out of seven.

But has it been a success ?

Camden ranks 10th nationwide in the most dangerous cities in America.
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/top100dangerous
And is in fact the most dangerous city in NJ.
https://patch.com/new-jersey/cherryh...ity-new-jersey
Besides that , the main reason crime dropped in Camden (besides nationwide trends) was that policies promoted by Christie led to population decline and gentrification in Camden. Less public housing ,less Section 8 housing and yes those community based policing initiatives . Those include those widely reported barbeques etc . They also include those police beat downs that don't make it into those articles with an agenda .
https://www.inquirer.com/news/inq/co...-20150425.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKef9hgOFio

Oh yeah and violent crimes in Camden get reclassified as non-violent at the country level .

So yes it is true that the CCPD has improved community relations with the people of the city . But that is only one side of the coin.

In order to form a more perfect union....takes years, decades, and centuries. A lot of tries, failures, adjustments and baby steps.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

In order to form a more perfect union....takes years, decades, and centuries. A lot of tries, failures, adjustments and baby steps.

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a forelorn hope, no union will be perfect and at times it has been obvious that the idea of a union may not be what the people want

The point is you keep striving to improve, learning from what works well, and what doesn't. It's a process not an event. In the past much blood was shed when some didn't want a union...they lost.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

The point is you keep striving to improve, learning from what works well, and what doesn't. It's a process not an event. In the past much blood was shed when some didn't want a union...they lost.

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yes and freedom lost that day despite the fact that many became free, the union was far from perfect in fact it was fractured and maybe it has never healed

tal is right . a perfect union is utopian . a more perfect union is a goal .

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Originally Posted by paraclete

yes and freedom lost that day despite the fact that many became free, the union was far from perfect in fact it was fractured and maybe it has never healed

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Some say that the military part ended, but the social war is still being waged.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Some say that the military part ended, but the social war is still being waged.

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i think that is very apparent

Well maybe ALL the military stuff has not ended.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...teens-n1229806

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tu...ng/ar-BB15uuhd

We have many militias here and cops all armed and ready to rock.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Well maybe ALL the military stuff has not ended.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...teens-n1229806

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tu...ng/ar-BB15uuhd

We have many militias here and cops all armed and ready to rock.

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Yes undoubtedly there are too many on both sides

Only cops here have qualified immunity though, and a unions behind them. Others have stand your ground, which is the same thing in practice, and everybody uses fear for my life. Killing made legal in most cases, as well as other cruelties and atrocities. I mean young kids being terrorized and brutalized by the badge crowd, for jaywalking down a street with no sidewalks.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

as well as other cruelties and atrocities. I mean young kids being terrorized and brutalized by the badge crowd, for jaywalking down a street with no sidewalks.

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Agreed.

Cops murdering blacks is obviously not that common, but it exists as the whole world witnesses those videos. It should make us all wonder what bad cops did when videos were not available - like for the last many, many years.

What is just as worrying are the "other cruelties and atrocities" you mentioned. The ones never seen by the public and that are a daily occurrence. The "good" cops share the blame as they remain silent when their brother cops act badly. The Blue Wall of Silence is a criminal reality.

They didn't believe how brutal racists were until we got the images in our living rooms in the 60's from the south. That was a whole century after the end of slavery. I know everybody has heard of the Tulsa Massacre, and the heyday of the KKK and the acknowledgement and support they got from local, state, and federal governments, yes even in the "liberal" north.

Those rare and isolated encounters with cops by black people are a constant source of near death experiences, abuse, death and jail, and since it takes years and decades for change and I think the generations have seen a shift in just how much cruelty, abuse, and atrocities we're going to take. Trust me minorities are as tired of living it as the majority is seeing and hearing about it. Your rare and isolated is a stark reality.

Next tell me racism and lynchings were rare and isolated events. Yeah right. Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were rare and isolated events. So are abortions rare and isolated events. School shootings, rare and isolated events. The Civil War was a rare and isolated event! I suppose whatever peeve you have is a rare and isolated event. Funny how rare and isolated events can change a lot of lives so profoundly, especially when caught on tape and you're sitting in your living room.

Right now the cops are just the focal point of the outrage people feel and have felt for CENTURIES about a lot of stuff, so I think maybe you should rap your heads around something being done about the festering wound that has been ignored for a long time that this virus has just ripped the band-aid off of. Our whole socio-economic system has been exposed in every area possible for the inequality that has rendered EVERYTHING useless. Instead of the business as usual make America great again crap, we should be making America better than we were. NORMAL ain't cutting it for everybody.

here is how Sandinista Bill decided to make NYC better . He disbanded the special crimes unit . What was the special crimes unit ? Well they were the elite trained cops . They went out into the city in plain clothes and actually caught crime in the act instead of having to wait to respond to a 9-11 call. How successful were they ? Very . When Times Square was a sewer of crime with routine murder and muggings ; cops were deployed visibly on horse back .Their presence alone was a deterrence because they could look over the crowded streets and see potential criminals . They would alert the special crime officers who were mingled in with the crowd and they would converge . Sometimes nothing would happen .Often as mentioned they would be there as a crime happened . It was that effort that made Time Square a safe place for New Yorkers and tourists to be . Crime dropped ;murder dropped .

So what has happened in the short time since Sandinista Bill has eliminated their presence ?

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Shootings are surging this week in New York City, with 28 incidents and 38 victims reported since Monday — the day the NYPD disbanded its plainclothes anti-crime unit, The Post learned on Friday.
By comparison, the same week last year there were only 12 shootings for the entire week.

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https://nypost.com/2020/06/19/nyc-sh...pn_0M1jCFmHSwM

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There have been 97 shootings this month so far, compared to 89 for the whole month of June last year.

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https://nypost.com/2020/06/15/nypd-d...-of-shootings/

Seems they will still have those plain clothes cops Tom, just some of the "special trained" ones will be reassigned, I suspect younger guys. Not saying whether this is good or bad, or just different but there were a lot of complaints that don't seem to have made the news so we'll see if this spike in violent crimes is a long term trend or a hot summer week in the big city.

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The unit has had a history of high-profile shootings and deaths and, year-over-year, the cops in the patrol account for more than half of police-involved shootings, according to NYPD’s annual discharge reports.

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it is very simple . They are there when the crime is happening . Not 5-10 minutes later responding to a 9-11 call that a crime is happening . So of course they are more involved in violent encounters . All those alleged abuses and all the article cited is the Garner choking death .That and one accidental blue on blue killing .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

it is very simple . They are there when the crime is happening . Not 5-10 minutes later responding to a 9-11 call that a crime is happening . So of course they are more involved in violent encounters . All those alleged abuses and all the article cited is the Garner choking death .That and one accidental blue on blue killing .

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You certainly make it sound simple and clear cut Tom, you usually do, but I've been reading that this isn't the only time a cop unit has been disbanded and reformed and seems to be a go to tactic during controversial times.

https://time.com/5854015/nypd-anti-c...loyd-protests/

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The anti-crime unit took on many of the duties of the former Street Crime Unit, which was closed in a largely symbolic move after it was hit with a racial profiling lawsuit and four of its officers killed Guinean immigrant Amadou Diallo in 1999 in a barrage of 41 shots.In its pursuit of illegal guns, the anti-crime unit relied heavily on stopping and frisking people without justification. A federal judge ruled in 2013 that the practice violated the civil rights of minorities.

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You gotta do something until the protestors go home and that may not be soon.

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the cops in the patrol account for more than half of police-involved shootings, according to NYPD’s annual discharge reports.

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So cops on the beat are more likely to discharge their pistols than cops doing paperwork? Who would have thought that would not have been the case? Am I missing something there?

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You gotta do something until the protestors go home

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Democracy by intimidation. Doesn't sound appealing to me.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So cops on the beat are more likely to discharge their pistols than cops doing paperwork? Who would have thought that would not have been the case? Am I missing something there?

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What a screwball statement.

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Democracy by intimidation. Doesn't sound appealing to me.

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You don't have to listen if you don't want to, but somebody better, because the protestors don't seem to be going home. Hard to ignore a group that size that have gotten peaceful yet persistent. In addition I don't think they care about what appeals to anybody but what is driving them now. So regardless of what you may think, they clearly have had enough crap.

Can you hear that yet?

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What a screwball statement.

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I thought it was as well. Why did you post it?

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You don't have to listen if you don't want to, but somebody better, because the protestors don't seem to be going home. Hard to ignore a group that size that have gotten peaceful yet persistent. In addition I don't think they care about what appeals to anybody but what is driving them now.

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Like I said, they are attempting to practice democracy by intimidation. I'm willing to listen, but listening has to be a two-way street.

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So regardless of what you may think, they clearly have had enough crap.

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So the question now pertains to when will the rest of American look at their antics and decide we have also had just about enough.

the unit was looking for perhaps the worse serial rapist in NYC history a guy named Isaac Jones who had over 50 rapes/assaults attributed to him . He just happened to live in the same neighborhood as Diallo ;one of the city’s most crime-ridden neighborhoods..... and Diallo fit his description .Diallo made a living by street peddling bootleg videos .

The four cops also were briefed that night about a rash of shootings in the neighborhood, including the murder of a livery cabdriver.

Officers Sean Carroll and Edward McMellon got out of the car, identified themselves as police, and asked Diallo to stop . And that is where the tragedy should've ended with Diallo doing what the cops instructed him to do . Bad things are going to happen if you run away when police tell you to stop . That act alone puts the cop's safety at risk. Did I tell you that besides illegally selling videos on the streets ,he was also an illegal alien who had filed a false asylum claim? So yeah he did not want to get arrested .He ran up the stairs and the 4 cops went in pursuit. He was told to show his hands and instead he reached into his pocket and pulled out his wallet ;which in the silhouette the cops mistook for a gun. One of the cops ,McMellon fired 3 times at Diallo ,probably disabling him. But as circumstances had it ,bullets ricocheted McMellon tripped and fell breaking his tail bone . His fellow officers thought he had been shot .That is why the barrage of bullets followed .
All the cops were found not guilty . Yes it was a tragedy . But it does not negate all the good the unit did for the city . Previously it was reconstituted because Mayors like Bloomy saw the value in crime prevention. Sandinista Bill doesn't .He thinks law enforcement is the problem.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Bad things are going to happen if you run away when police tell you to stop . That act alone puts the cop's safety at risk.

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Running away from cops puts the cops' safety at risk?

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Did I tell you that besides illegally selling videos on the streets ,he was also an illegal alien who had filed a false asylum claim?

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No, you didn't tell us. What in the world does that have to do with the final outcome?

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the cops mistook for a gun. One of the cops ,McMellon fired 3 times at Diallo ,probably disabling him. But as circumstances had it ,bullets ricocheted ...... etc., etc., etc.............................his tail bone . His fellow officers thought he had been shot .That is why the barrage of bullets followed .All the cops were found not guilty .

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Tomder, do you seriously believe the story would have been as you described (with cops the only witnesses) if a video had been available of the confrontation? I doubt it.

I can't speculate about what a video would show . Neither should you. A jury absolved all the cops . And yes ,running from cops puts the cops in danger . Without resisting then the 4th amendment protections against unreasonable force is clear cut . Resisting arrest now puts the cop in a position to have to decide how much violent force is reasonable . Do you think Cops don't get hurt chasing a suspect down? The cop who would like to make it how to their families now have uncertainty about how far the suspect will go to resist . You know what else puts cops at risk ? Emptying Ryker's prison puts cops and civilians at risk . And catch and release like Sandinista Bill does puts cops at risk.

BTW ;over 20 shootings in NYC in the last 24 hours . wtg Sandinista Bill !!! you a$$Wipe !!

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I can't speculate about what a video would show . Neither should you. A jury absolved all the cops . And yes ,running from cops puts the cops in danger . Without resisting then the 4th amendment protections against unreasonable force is clear cut . Resisting arrest now puts the cop in a position to have to decide how much violent force is reasonable . Do you think Cops don't get hurt chasing a suspect down? The cop who would like to make it how to their families now have uncertainty about how far the suspect will go to resist . You know what else puts cops at risk ? Emptying Ryker's prison puts cops and civilians at risk . And catch and release like Sandinista Bill does puts cops at risk.

BTW ;over 20 shootings in NYC in the last 24 hours . wtg Sandinista Bill !!! you a$$Wipe !!

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Ok - I'll give you the cop safety thing about running. I was thinking that the bad guy was also in danger - he might have gotten two in the back.

No, I don't know what a video would show. I was speculating. What I DO know is the Soundview section of the Bronx. I also know the cop culture in the Bronx - many of the guys I grew up with in the Bronx became cops. They were a mixed lot and the stories they told in the local bars after work about working in Harlem and Bed-Stuy and 138th St & Willis Avenue (South Bronx) were not designed to encourage or even recognize racial justice.

The story then was the black cops were worse than the white cops, tougher on their own.

Maybe now is the time for long-needed change to start.