Generalissimo Francisco Franco's remains will be removed from entombment on Thursday, 10/24/'19: This is just another example of the whitewashing of history that many nations all over the world have gotten into as of late. In the U.S. South, there has been a move to tear down Confederate monuments. In Afghanistan, the Taliban tore down Buddha statues. in Syria, ISIS tore down Churches and tore up the ruins of ancient Roman civilization. This mentality is a sickness. The zealotry of the Third World can be attributed to religious craziness but in civilized First World nations like the U.S. and Spain, what is the mental breakdown that drives the whitewashing of history?

Maybe in the civilized world the due process of law has been followed and a lot of the oppositions to such monuments to dictators, and instigators of a lot of bloodshed have won and want the record corrected accordingly, at least that seems to be the case of Spain. In the US though descendants of those that suffered through a bloody war to decide whether the nation would continue the course of slavery or not, find great objection to the losing factions making heroes of those that wanted to continue the practice, and glorify that horror many endured.

Now that's very different from those actions of as you described terrorist zealots wiping out history I think, and I'm not ready to make those comparisons even though I have to agree that humans seem to have lost their frigging minds, especially in our own country Vac, or would you prefer V7?

I do see your point on the Confederate memorials. I imagine if I was black then I'd have a different point of view towards them. However, it just keeps the pot stirred and a little compromise here and there would be helpful. Taking down a statue does not improve the life of a single American by even a penny. New Orleans likes to trumpet the fact that they took down a rather large Confederate statue, and yet they still have one of the highest murder rates in the country. Maybe taking some steps that are more than just symbolic would be a good idea.

Maybe we could dig up some more world heros and put them on exhibiton or better still inter them in unmarked graves. But how do you decide who is a hero since all are infamous among their opponents? Hilter knew what he was doing when he settled for a quiet private death

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I do see your point on the Confederate memorials. I imagine if I was black then I'd have a different point of view towards them. However, it just keeps the pot stirred and a little compromise here and there would be helpful. Taking down a statue does not improve the life of a single American by even a penny. New Orleans likes to trumpet the fact that they took down a rather large Confederate statue, and yet they still have one of the highest murder rates in the country. Maybe taking some steps that are more than just symbolic would be a good idea.

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It's not just a monetary value one seeks through the struggle for a modicum of dignity and self respect and if that struggle takes years to bear fruit the is that not a compromise in of itself? Removing confederate statutes doesn't mean the struggle is over, just that a small step has been achieved and more pot stirring is needed, and maybe that the price to pay for a place at the table, or the right to be free, justice, and defining the American way that starts at equal protection under the law that extends to all.

For those in the struggle any struggle rally achieving even a small step is more than just symbolic and priceless.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Maybe we could dig up some more world heros and put them on exhibiton or better still inter them in unmarked graves. But how do you decide who is a hero since all are infamous among their opponents? Hilter knew what he was doing when he settled for a quiet private death

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The process takes many years sometimes hopefully peacefully through the court process. Hitler saved a lot of time and hassle after causing all that death and destruction, unlike Khadafy, Mussolini, and Saddam. The peoples justice was much more swift and decisive.

Talaniman: You can call me V7, Vac, or just about anything you want to as long as you call me for supper.....especially if you got turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread on the table!

Here is my view of it....and it may be a bit sideways or perverted, as my wife will tell you that most of viewpoint are: Why do you WANT to forget any of this ESPECIALLY if your on the other side of it? I mean, I'll never be a Negro but trying to put myself in their mindset, wouldn't you get more inspiration out of seeing the statues of those who were DEFEATED in the attempt to keep chains on you? My thoughts on the reasons for the Civil War no-withstanding (I believe it was a whole lot more to do with preventing SUCCESSION than it was freeing slaves), the South lost the Civil War (some parts it is called the War Of Northern Aggression) and their "homeland", so to speak, occupied by the victors.....and the free slaves were part of that victory: The Confederate monument certainly are not a "celebration" of victory but the mourning of loss and honoring dead soldiers. Like jlisenbe, I can't really come to terms with the Confederate monuments issue in a firm sense.

If you look at this issue from the perspective of the Jews, they have a totally different take on this than anyone, possibly anyone in the world: THE JEWS DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO EVER FORGET.....EVER! They do not want history whitewashed: They want you to remember the Holocaust with them and they don't any of the remnants, pictures, ANYTHING to ever be done away with, not ever. Is there a strategy there? Is there something to learn from the Jew about how they process and handle the Holocaust? PROBABLY! The state of Israel has parlayed what they endured at the hands of Hitler into a legitimate STATE in the M.E., with much support, particularly from the United States. And whenever anyone opposes any move they make in Israel or the M.E., the Jews are VERY QUICK TO EVOKE THE REMEMBRANCE OF THE HOLOCAUST......remembering the Holocaust has become a "justification", of sorts, for just about everything they do. I think there is something to be learned here.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Talaniman: You can call me V7, Vac, or just about anything you want to as long as you call me for supper.....especially if you got turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread on the table!

Here is my view of it....and it may be a bit sideways or perverted, as my wife will tell you that most of viewpoint are: Why do you WANT to forget any of this ESPECIALLY if your on the other side of it? I mean, I'll never be a Negro but trying to put myself in their mindset, wouldn't you get more inspiration out of seeing the statues of those who were DEFEATED in the attempt to keep chains on you? My thoughts on the reasons for the Civil War no-withstanding (I believe it was a whole lot more to do with preventing SUCCESSION than it was freeing slaves), the South lost the Civil War (some parts it is called the War Of Northern Aggression) and their "homeland", so to speak, occupied by the victors.....and the free slaves were part of that victory: The Confederate monument certainly are not a "celebration" of victory but the mourning of loss and honoring dead soldiers. Like jlisenbe, I can't really come to terms with the Confederate monuments issue in a firm sense.

If you look at this issue from the perspective of the Jews, they have a totally different take on this than anyone, possibly anyone in the world: THE JEWS DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO EVER FORGET.....EVER! They do not want history whitewashed: They want you to remember the Holocaust with them and they don't any of the remnants, pictures, ANYTHING to ever be done away with, not ever. Is there a strategy there? Is there something to learn from the Jew about how they process and handle the Holocaust? PROBABLY! The state of Israel has parlayed what they endured at the hands of Hitler into a legitimate STATE in the M.E., with much support, particularly from the United States. And whenever anyone opposes any move they make in Israel or the M.E., the Jews are VERY QUICK TO EVOKE THE REMEMBRANCE OF THE HOLOCAUST......remembering the Holocaust has become a "justification", of sorts, for just about everything they do. I think there is something to be learned here.

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Vac if your wife thinks your viewpoint is perverted maybe we don't want to hear it, but frankly, after listening to you maybe you should let her post

Yeah I can see the Jews tolerating the swastika and stautes of Hitler, or those that praise him as a hero, and some do.

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Talaniman: You can call me V7, Vac, or just about anything you want to as long as you call me for supper.....especially if you got turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread on the table!

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I like mustard greens with smoked turkey leg meat falling off the bone with onions, to go with my cornbread. Any greens will do and we often mix them, and vinegar is a must.

Talaniman: Honestly, I hadn't thought of it in the terms you described.....that puts a different light on it, for sure!

If you like turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread, you got to be all right!

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Talaniman: You can call me V7, Vac, or just about anything you want to as long as you call me for supper.....especially if you got turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread on the table!

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That's as old as the hills, but still funny. It was unexpected.

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I'll never be a Negro but ...

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Negro? Did you really say NEGRO?

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is called the War Of Northern Aggression

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Fort Sumter?

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the mourning of loss and honoring dead soldiers.

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I think there's an argument to be made that those statues - all military as far as I know - are about "mourning the loss and honoring dead soldiers". Once visiting Antietam, I saw the soldiers from both sides in that battle buried in a common graveyard. I can also understand why African-Americans see it differently.

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THE JEWS DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO EVER FORGET...

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That's the same take the South has re their statues.

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The state of Israel has parlayed what they endured at the hands of Hitler into a legitimate STATE

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Don't dismiss the Balfour Declaration 40 years earlier.

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remembering the Holocaust has become a "justification", of sorts, I think there is something to be learned here

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Yes, there is something to be learned. Like don't allow genocide to take place like Trump is doing with the Kurds.

Athos: Yes, the War Of Northern Aggression is straight-up how the Civil War is referenced in Charleston, S.C.....almost everyone says it.

Same effect on me, as you had at Antietam, when I visited Gettysburg: You suddenly realize how unimportant any political slants are in the presence of such a "heavy", solemn place: Soldiers earned respect, regardless, of which side, because they "gave up everything they had and everything they were EVER going to have."

You know, the case of Israel is not that far dissimilar to that of the Kurds: Both experienced genocide (Kurds and Armenians), just that the Nazis were more efficient with the Jews, and both did not have a homeland, albeit the Jews do now.....similar "place" in history.....The Kurds, though, really don't have a "CHAMPION" to help them that I know about.

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I think there's an argument to be made that those statues - all military as far as I know - are about "mourning the loss and honoring dead soldiers". Once visiting Antietam, I saw the soldiers from both sides in that battle buried in a common graveyard. I can also understand why African-Americans see it differently.

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For once we basically agree. Haven't been to Antietam, but in the Vicksburg battlefield park many of the states have placed monuments to those who died in the battle. I'm sure the monuments would offend some people, but it still would seem to be a legitimate observation. The courage exhibited by both sides is worthy of notice and emulation. Perhaps we can learn from people that we don't necessarily agree with on all points.

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Athos: Yes, the War Of Northern Aggression is straight-up how the Civil War is referenced in Charleston, S.C.....almost everyone says it.

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Even the people of color and descendants of slaves? Or just the white majority? Perspective plays a huge part in the dialogue, and the south was hardly the victim. Southern NEGROES were. Both before and after the Civil War, and still struggling to this day (Okay even in the NORTH too), with a different kind of slavery.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

For once we basically agree. Haven't been to Antietam, but in the Vicksburg battlefield park many of the states have placed monuments to those who died in the battle. I'm sure the monuments would offend some people, but it still would seem to be a legitimate observation. The courage exhibited by both sides is worthy of notice and emulation. Perhaps we can learn from people that we don't necessarily agree with on all points.

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I have a lot of sympathy for the rank and file who shed blood, but not for the elites that lead them (In the South).

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The names and dates of documented victims are engraved on the panels. More than 4075 documented lynchings of African Americans took place between 1877 and 1950, concentrated in 12 Southern states. In addition, the EJI has published supplementary information about lynchings in several states outside the South. The monument is the first major work in the nation to name and honor these victims.

^[10]

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

..The Kurds, though, really don't have a "CHAMPION" to help them that I know about.

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They did until last week when idiot Trump abandoned them without a moment's notice. In just a few days, he has been responsible for 300,000 Kurds displaced. Only God knows how many will be slaughtered once the Turks move in when the "pause" ends today.

Are Vlad and Assad coming to be the NEW champion for the Kurds? The Turks might not like that.

Talaniman: As a Southern man, I am happy we have a UNITED STATES, and not a North and South States setup: Succession can't be tolerated.....nor the other stuff that went along with that temporary setup.

Yes, you are right, again: Its not Blacks saying "War Of Northern Aggression" in Charleston.

Recently, I heard that Blacks are, also, getting stupid about a "desire" to separate themselves into their "own" dorms and the like on college campuses.....I guess that they are free to do as they wish, ITS STILL THE LAND OF THE FREE, but, I believe, this is not a direction that they should take.

It's a very human thing for anyone to retreat to the safety of the tribe when a threat, percieved or real is looming. Doesn't take much for people to percieve a threat, one noghead will do that. Hanging a noose in a tree gets a reaction, or a swasika on someones dorm room door.

Nope doesn't take much at all.

Or students rioting and destroying public property in order to prevent freedom of speech.

That too JL, and conservatives are not the only ones targeted by such actions. Both overt and covert. Voter suppression comes to mind also.

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Voter suppression comes to mind also.

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You mean like when the Black Panthers were openly and plainly intimidating voters in Philadelphia in 2012, an action for which, of course, they were NOT held responsible by the Obama administration? It was a blatantly racist event, and yet nothing was done about it. I wonder why?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You mean like when the Black Panthers were openly and plainly intimidating voters in Philadelphia in 2012, an action for which, of course, they were NOT held responsible by the Obama administration? It was a blatantly racist event, and yet nothing was done about it. I wonder why?

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Because, as usual, you got it completely wrong.

The 2012 incident in Philadelphia was manufactured by FOX News. ONE Black Panther was there who was an election official performing his official duties.

Investigators later reported that witness remarks said that he was pleasant and "easy to talk to".

There was NO intimidation, NO "blatant racism", nothing at all.

Wonder no more.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You mean like when the Black Panthers were openly and plainly intimidating voters in Philadelphia in 2012, an action for which, of course, they were NOT held responsible by the Obama administration? It was a blatantly racist event, and yet nothing was done about it. I wonder why?

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No, I mean like the states like Texas that tried to keep black college students from voting on their Campus, or in Michigan where college students had to walk and catch buses to polling places, or Florida who purges the voting rolls or Georgia where minorities are purged by their governor. Or the southern states that close urban DMV's to prevent ID's by minorities and moving them to urban areas with restricted times to be open. Or the misinformed people like you who conflate NOTHING into a huge mountain as witnessed above.

That's the real kinds of voter suppression of minority voters going on that I meant.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Because, as usual, you got it completely wrong.

The 2012 incident in Philadelphia was manufactured by FOX News. ONE Black Panther was there who was an election official performing his official duties.

Investigators later reported that witness remarks said that he was pleasant and "easy to talk to".

There was NO intimidation, NO "blatant racism", nothing at all.

Wonder no more.

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Well said.

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Because, as usual, you got it completely wrong.

The 2012 incident in Philadelphia was manufactured by FOX News. ONE Black Panther was there who was an election official performing his official duties.

Investigators later reported that witness remarks said that he was pleasant and "easy to talk to".

There was NO intimidation, NO "blatant racism", nothing at all.

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As usual, you are wrong. There were clearly two black panther members in the video, one carrying a night stick. The two of them claimed, on the video, to be "security" which was not true. One was asked to leave by the police and did so. The other was an election official, but was wandering around outside dressed up in Black Panther garb which seems pretty irregular. And last and probably least, the incident occurred in 2008 and not 2012. And yes, I got the date wrong as well.

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No, I mean like the states like Texas that tried to keep black college students from voting on their Campus

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That's an exaggeration for sure.

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or in Michigan where college students had to walk and catch buses to polling places

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What? They had to ride a bus to go vote? How terrible!!

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Georgia where minorities are purged by their governor.

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100% false allegation.

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Or the southern states that close urban DMV's to prevent ID's by minorities and moving them to urban areas with restricted times to be open.

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I'd like to see evidence for that one.

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Or the misinformed people like you who conflate NOTHING into a huge mountain as witnessed above.

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Blah, blah, blah.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

As usual, you are wrong.

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Good grief. You admit right here that YOU were wrong. I'll quote your words below.

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And last and probably least, the incident occurred in 2008 and not 2012.

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Geez, I'll say. AT LEAST. You are incredible. You admit you got the date wrong and you say I am wrong. I gave you the correct information that you posted about 2012. YOU WERE WRONG! PERIOD! FULL STOP!

Now you walk it back and find another different incident to whine about.

Simply amazing!

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And yes, I got the date wrong as well.

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Saints be praised! He admits it.

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Geez, I'll say. AT LEAST. You are incredible. You admit you got the date wrong and you say I am wrong. I gave you the correct information that you posted about 2012. YOU WERE WRONG! PERIOD! FULL STOP!

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This is your quote. "The 2012 incident in Philadelphia was manufactured by FOX News." Now I plainly stated we were both incorrect. That's how we are different. When I am wrong, I say it. You never think you are wrong. At any rate, I also said, "last and probably least". In other words, it was not a big deal. Get a little perspective for crying out loud.

But how about your statement that there was only one BP in the video? Your quote was, " ONE Black Panther was there who was an election official performing his official duties." Was that correct? How about them calling themselves "security"? How about one of them carrying a night stick? Hello??? If you still think you were correct, then watch this. Perhaps it will be the first time you've seen it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU

When I saw the video back in the day I saw people both black and white going in and out about their business. Did I miss the intimidation part here? Or more loony right wing paranoid exaggeration and lies?

Clearly it was the latter in an attempt to create doubt and fear. The dufus and right wing tool of choice...LYING.

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When I saw the video back in the day I saw people both black and white going in and out about their business. Did I miss the intimidation part here? Or more loony right wing paranoid exaggeration and lies?

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Yeah. I see people dressed in the uniforms of extremist groups holding night sticks outside of polling places all the time. I'm sure it was all perfectly normal for Texas.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

This is your quote. "The 2012 incident in Philadelphia was manufactured by FOX News."

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Yes, that is my quote. Yes, the 2012 incident was manufactured by FOX News - specifically, Sean Hannity.

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Now I plainly stated we were both incorrect.

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On what basis do you plainly state I am incorrect?

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That's how we are different. When I am wrong, I say it.

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This is getting more and more bizarre. You have been wrong so many times without admitting it, it's astonishing. I give you absolute direct proof and you continue to deny the facts. I'm at a loss to explain you.

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But how about your statement that there was only one BP in the video? Your quote was, " ONE Black Panther was there who was an election official performing his official duties." Was that correct?

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YES, that was and is correct. If you had half a brain you would know that the incident I referenced has ONE Black Panther who was "pleasant". (I'm sorry to name call, but you are truly exasperating. Some days I spend half my afternoon trying to explain things to you so you will understand, but you steadfastly refuse.

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How about them calling themselves "security"? How about one of them carrying a night stick? Hello???

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Hello yourself. There was no night stick.

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If you still think you were correct, then watch this. Perhaps it will be the first time you've seen it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU

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IT'S THE WRONG VIDEO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your first post was 2012. Now you're changing it to 2008. This is not the first time you have changed mid-stream.

Susse Jesu, Bleiben Sie Mir.

Bikers and young people in jeans and hoodies? You can carry an AR 15 in open carry states, but a guy with a stick is extreme? Geez guy you could at least be consistent.

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IT'S THE WRONG VIDEO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your first post was 2012. Now you're changing it to 2008. This is not the first time you have changed mid-stream.

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I stated hours ago that the video I referred to was in 2008. Remember how you practically wet your pants when I told you I had referenced the wrong date as being 2012 when it should have been 2008? And before you wet your pants again (might be too late on that), we are plainly referring to two separate incidents. Calm down.

In the 08 incident there were clearly two BP members, one of whom was holding a night stick. That was what I was referring to.

As to 2012, that was not simply a Fox News invention. This link shows that.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...olling-places/

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YES, that was and is correct. If you had half a brain you would know that the incident I referenced has ONE Black Panther who was "pleasant". (I'm sorry to name call, but you are truly exasperating. Some days I spend half my afternoon trying to explain things to you so you will understand, but you steadfastly refuse.

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I am tempted to return the name calling, but that would make me like you, and I don't intend for that to happen under any circumstances. If the explanations I read from you take half an afternoon to formulate, then you need a lot of intense therapy. Maybe WG can help you.

So what the House speaker of the state legislature in Pa. publicaly said voter ID laws were an attempt to help Romney beat Obama. Now what?

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So what the House speaker of the state legislature in Pa. publicaly said voter ID laws were an attempt to help Romney beat Obama. Now what?

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Now what? Now I want to kick myself for being hopeful enough to think that you might actually link an article that is worth looking at. So you link an article that is several pages long and was written in 2016, and then want to act as though the PA guy said something of great interest just in the past few days, and that's assuming I want to take the time to pick through all the clutter to find it? That's why I don't like to take your links. They are useless nine times out of ten.

Well you BP video was pretty old too!

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

we are plainly referring to two separate incidents.

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Took you long enough to figure that out. Without my help, you would still be in the wrong election.

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As to 2012, that was not simply a Fox News invention. This link shows that.

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That link shows nothing. Hannity started it. A team headed by an ex-Seal followed up and reported there was nothing to Hannity's rumor. But it was too late. By then the entire loony right-wing (you included) was running the false rumor.

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I am tempted to return the name calling

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Tempted? You do it more than anyone and then complain when others do it.

Right before posting this, I went back and read your exchange with Wondergirl. Your lack of understanding expressed in that back-and-forth was beyond weird. Her explanations (supported by Tal) were crystal clear and you couldn't grasp them and even misconstrued them to a bizarre degree.

I honestly believe you have been affected by Trump and how he gaslights on a daily basis. You are doing exactly what he does - and it's so obvious that I wonder about all the Trump supporters.

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Tempted? You do it more than anyone and then complain when others do it.

Right before posting this, I went back and read your exchange with Wondergirl. Your lack of understanding expressed in that back-and-forth was beyond weird. Her explanations (supported by Tal) were crystal clear and you couldn't grasp them and even misconstrued them to a bizarre degree.

I honestly believe you have been affected by Trump and how he gaslights on a daily basis. You are doing exactly what he does - and it's so obvious that I wonder about all the Trump supporters.

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And, of course, all of that is true because you think it is. Oh well.

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Took you long enough to figure that out. Without my help, you would still be in the wrong election

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Just to show that your claim is your usual fake garbage, this is the first notice of the date problem in this thread and it was posted by me. "And last and probably least, the incident occurred in 2008 and not 2012. And yes, I got the date wrong as well."

So who put who in the right election???

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Calm down.

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I don't suffer fools calmly.

Learning to control you own emotions is a valuable asset. Learning not to blame your outbursts on someone else is even better.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Learning to control you own emotions is a valuable asset. Learning not to blame your outbursts on someone else is even better.

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I have to say it, are you not aware there are more important things going on in the world than getting in touch with yourself. stop being so self obscessed and realise there are riots in Chile, in Hong Kong, there are protest rallies all over the world, people are upset and they are blaming their outbursts on someoneelse