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Do we have Trump's excuse to bomb Iran? Drone attacks on Saudi oil assets,blamed on the Hothi however, the oil assets attacked were closer to Iran than Yemen and where did Hothi get such sophisticated weapons. Many questions to be answered here, will Trump once again dance to the Saudi tune? Will Saudi Arabia unleash a proxy war on Iran. Whatever the answer we will all be paying for it
that is easy . The IRGC supplied them .You forget their drones are pretty sophisticated . Their turbojet-powered Karrar drone can easily drop bombs as well as fire a guided missile called the Sadid. It took a special Marine jamming device to take one down in the Straits of Hormuz in July .Quote:
where did Hothi get such sophisticated weapons
Now do I believe it was Houthi or IRGC hands at the controls ? I don't believe the Houthi's piloted the craft . Tehran's drones have demonstrated effectiveness in Syria ;mostly for scouting and directing fire. But given the fact that the Saudi oil was probably not sufficiently protected against an aerial attack . I can see their drones slipping through and hitting their targets .
No Iran has attacked Saudi Arabia . You should get your facts straight.The Houthi's are a proxy force of Iran . The Saudi's and a Gulf coalition are fighting them because it is in no one's interest for them to control the Arabian Sea coast and the Gulf of Aden.Quote:
Will Saudi Arabia unleash a proxy war on Iran
btw it has been revealed that the dispute between Trump and Bolton was NOT about the Taliban . Bolton opposed that Trump wanted to lift some Iranian sanctions as inducement to get them to direct talks . Bolton was right to oppose it .
The good news is that the US has surpassed the Saudi's as oil exporters . Now you Aussies import almost all of your oil used although most of it is from Asian sources . However any disruption of the world market affects world prices . So when you pay more at the pump think hard about if you think it is a good idea to stop Iraninan aggression.
Been here before folks,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis
Read the whole thing folks!
More $$$s for the U.S.: The U.S., it was announced this week, has SURPASSED SAUDI ARABIA AS THE #1 OIL PRODUCER IN THE WORLD! So, driving oil prices up means more $$$s for the U.S.....Guess that backfires on the old dirty bearded Moolahs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
More dollars for CORPORATIONS, for the American citizen LESS dollars!
so we can now indulge in some conspiracy theories, who has the most to gain from rising oil prices? from war in the ME? is it only me or do I smell the hand of the military-industrial complex in thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
I smell the hand of the 12ers looking to establish regional hegemony. Who benefits from rising prices ? The 12ers do . They get a higher price for their illicit sales of Oil .
Whast we have here is a classic case of push-shove
Paraclete: I never count the hand of the Military-Industrial Complex out of anything! And I don't think that any thinking person would ever do so, either. They have been hard at work since WWII and have been responsible for siphoning off more $$$s from the U.S. than anyone else.....and more lives, for that matter, than anyone else. Does anyone believe that the U.S. couldn't defeat North Vietnam in a twelve year conflict? No, that was protracted and prolonged for a reason: And we have some really dastardly "representatives" that we elected to give full, complicit cooperation to these shameful plays....and its entirely disgusting and sickening!
Iran is dumb as a box of rocks to do something like this....if they did it....or if this is a "FALSE FLAG" initiative directed by "others".....I tend to think I don't know, I am just pontificating.
Its all very disturbing in terms of the possible "what ifs" and who could be behind it, particularly from our side.
Iran probably has armies of militias everywhere and I think one has taken the credit for those Saudi oil attacks.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/15/middl...ntl/index.html
Of course we don't know much YET!
We know their constant provocations ,including regular attacks and seizures of tankers in the Straits as they did again this week . Since there has been a generally weak response to their provocations ,it doesn't surprise me they escalate .
Yes proxies all over waging war on the US ,the west ,and of course Israel. All I know is that it is very unlikely a Houthi attack . To accomplish that they would first know how to control the flight of the drones and then fly them over 600 miles to their target . If the attack did not come from the Houthi and not directly from Iran then perhaps the drone attacks originated from Iranian controlled sections of Iraq as suggested in the Tal link . That is the same scenario as the May 14 attack on a Saudi oil asset .
Tehran is getting desperate .They need to sell 1 million bbl of oil a month to meet their budget . They are barely meeting 1/10 of that commitment with the sanctions . Trump's dismissal of Bolton signals to Tehran that he is willing to cave on the sanctions . Trump using his force of personality diplomacy has already signaled he is willing to meet with anyone . Macron was also working as a broker during the August G7 meetings. The question to ask is how much control over the IRGC does Rouhani have ? If Trump and Rouhani want to sit down to negotiate and the IRGC doesn't want a diplomatic solution does it surprise anyone that they will do anything to sabotage the process ?
I have little doubt the Iranians through proxies have attacked the Saudis, but the position the dufus put himself in with allies doesn't make a response directly from us probable (?) or wise as a flunky for those Saudis. Pulling out of a multinational treaty doesn't inspire confidence or give us many options with those allies either, in this scenario.
Those quick hard line sanction tactics to bring an adversary to the table were very ill thought out. They can go on for years and much lower level dickering behind the scenes.
the JCPOA treaty was appeasment suck in many ways .All the signatories deliberately choose to ignore the blatant Iranian lies ;to leave off the table Iran’s development of ballistic missiles ;and Teheran’s involvement in terrorism and international criminal activity. It was all carrot and no stick.
It actually forbade punishing Iran for violations of the deal except if Iran cancelled the deal. Trump's apparent goal is to address the obvious flaws of the deal . Me ;I don't believe the regime will ever be honest brokers because there is nothing to compel them to short of war. The other idiot signatories are only concerned with the energy the Iranians can provide.So they are desperately attempting to help Tehran circumvent the sanctions . But in doing so they show themselves to be the feckless players they are …...which further emboldens the 12ers.... and demonstrates to the world how un-credible and unreliable they are as partners .
This brinksmanship Iran is engaging in is predictable and they will continue to escalate until there is an effective response . And that won't happen until the so called partners get their heads out of their posteriors and realize their timid response almost guarantees the Tehran will breach the nuclear threshold and become another rogue nation with nukes .
The treaty was a start a baby step for a bigger picture.
the bigger picture was Iran joining the nuclear club. I'll never undestand the west position . The only time the west stayed united in opposition to a nation becoming a nuclear nation was against South Africa. Every other rouge nation the west has rolled over and played dead .
Bashing Iran's funding source is one way to get their asses calmed down: If they attacked oil processing plants in Saudi, they may have just opened the proverbial Pandora's Box to having their own oil processing plants attacked by "unknown" assailants.
I thought there was a NO ADVERTISING rule on this site!
There is report themQuote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Iran never joined the nuclear club, but they may yet. Kim Or Vlad may sell them a few though, if they need them quick. OH, wait, those are the dufus FWB's aren't they? What a mess this fool has made of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
The understatement of the month! One day it's war - "locked and loaded". The next day it's not war - "I don't want to go to war with Iran". Even his boy Pence is confused saying war when Trump reverses himself.
The fool confuses those around him with his inability to know what he's doing as he brings the world a bit closer to a war he has only himself to blame for.
War is horrible...NOBODY should want war....I don't think President Trump does, either....and if he does, he is what you call him, Talaniman!
I do think that there are forces out there that are doing all they can do to involve the U.S. in warfare in order to "advance" their national interests, at the expense of ours, while, simultaneously, keeping their filthy hands clean.....One of these countries is in the Middle East and the other in Europe and I will let you guess whom they may be.
The U.S. needs to distance itself from warmongers all over the world....and we need to STOP BEING COERCED into getting involved in every conflict possible....nothing good will come out of it. Also, we need to stop pay extortionist like North Korea and Iran! Bill Clinton paid North Korea and Obama paid Iran with a cargo plane full of cash! God only knows if or what Trump may have paid or is thinking about paying....this needs to cease!
We need to go back and re-adopt the MONROE DOCTRINE and enforce it! We hold homogeny over the Western Hemisphere and that should be enough!
It was THEIR money!!!Quote:
Obama paid Iran with a cargo plane full of cash!
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ob...u-s-prisoners/
W.G.: Their money? Really? It was the Shah's money, not the Mullah's money.....The U.S. froze the assets.....and they should have stayed frozen.....and they shouldn't have been given back until HELL FROZE OVER! Did you ever hear of the Beirut Barracks Bombing? That terrorist bombing was designed in Tehran by Iranians and carried out by their lackeys and it killed 241 United State Marine Corps. Marines: 241 MARINES! What were the lives of those Marines worth to you? Were they worth nothing? Was there a monetary value associated with the lives of those Marines? Were there lawyers clamoring to get money for the live of those marines like the ambulance chasers do on TV today. I contend that NO AMOUNT OF FROZEN IRANIAN ASSET MONEY WAS WORTH THE LIVES OF THOSE UNITES STATES MARINES, NOT EVEN A SINGLE U.S. MARINE! Obama should have thought about those U.S. Marines before he thought about appeasing those filthy Mullahs in Iran.....and I can tell you, those U.S. Marines, those 241 brave U.S. Marines, they never even crossed Obamas mind as he gave the order to deliver, in the middle of the night, $1.7 billion TO APPEASE those dirty Mullahs......Does Obama have no shame? At long last, does Obama have no shame?
you have heard of diplomacy? negotiation? each side gives something, not necessarily of equal value, what is a few billion of someoneelses money? you can be sure that BO regarded it as nothing in order to gain something, a legacy agreement
their money ? No , it should've been used to compensate the 1980 hostages and the families of US soldiers killed and maimed by Iranian EFPs n Iraq. and AfghanistanQuote:
It was THEIR money!!!
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/p...q-afghanistan/
indeed that is what it was all about .Quote:
a legacy agreement
indeed that is what it was all about .Quote:
a legacy agreement
Paraclete & Tomder55: Whatever it was for BHO, it was absolutely disgusting: The Iranians destroyed so many in the years leading up to the payout in the middle of the night....I know a Marine who was in the Beirut Barracks: The Iranians destroyed his life that day....yes, he survived, if you want to call it that, with brain injuries, two fingers on one hand and three on the other hand, and the loss of his left leg at the knee, as well scars from head to foot.....and for BHO to spit in that man's face and, effectively, tell him that his life and the lives of his fellow Marines meant nothing to him, that is truly and utterly disgusting for a POTUS or anyone else who identifies themselves as an AMERICAN. Every time I see this Marine, I can't help but blush with anger that the bastards that did it didn't experience some retribution but, instead, they were, for all intents and purposes, paid for the murdering and maiming they did by the POTUS, BHO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
V7 - I think you're conflating several different events here.
"At long last, does Obama have no shame"? This is right out of the (Republican) McCarthy hearings in the early 1950s. You're off by 60-70 years.
The Marine Barracks in Beirut - This occurred in the early 1980s under Republican Reagan. After investigating, Reagan could never decide what to do. You're off with this one by several decades and six (!) different administrations.
Obama's deal with Iran - This was more recent and you seem to be confused about whose money it was. At one point you say it was the Shah's. Later, you say it was given to the Mullahs. I think we can agree that Trump caused the agreement to unilaterally expire simply because it had Obama's name on it. Now he wishes he had it back as he vacillates from war to not war.
Staying with the nuclear agreement would sure have kept our allies on our side in future issues regarding Iran, OR most certainly present ones. It kind of bugs me though, that the Saudis can lie their a$$ off about assassinating an American journalist on foreign soil, and then after all those arms deals with them, WE have to defend them when they get atttacked? They used those weapons against Yemen, but can't defend their own homeland?
The logic escapes me.
Athos: Oh no, I knew what I was saying: Joe McCarthy almost single-handedly dismantled a communist fifth column in the U.S.....because he was an extreme patriot.....and yet, all we ever hear about him is how he "persecuted" innocent people....like Alger Hiss, right, wasn't he innocent, too? No, he was a Soviet agent in Roosevelt's State Department.....but we always here the poor "At long last, Sir, do you have no decency" speech so everyone can be blinded to all the great things McCarthy did to protect a very vulnerable nation.
Yes, I know VERY WELL when the Beirut Barracks Bombing occurred and it was orchestrated by Iran POST-SHAH and UNDER MULLAHS' DIRECTIVES...not conflating anything!...The money was carted over here by the Shah and Obama carted it back over and paid the Mullahs off as a form of tribute and to grease the path to aiding their coercion of him into signing a worthless "Nuclear Deal:...And I don't care that it might have happened 30 years prior to Barack Hussein Obama providing $1.7 billion in payment to the Mullahs: Those U.S. Marines WERE STILL DEAD AND THEY WERE DEAD BECAUSE AN IRANIAN TERRORIST ACT WAS SET UPON THEM.....Does it make it O.K. that it was 30 some years earlier that those Marines were murdered? Does that make it all better? Does that let the stinking Mullahs off the hook? Is it a game and "has time expired" so they win and get to take home the money? Remember U.S. Law: There is no time limit in the prosecution of a murder charge and those U.S. Marines WERE MURDERED BY THE IRANIANS. And, under Barack Hussein Obama, we paid the terrorist country of Iran who committed the murders of our U.S. Marines.
And, I can tell you, Trump doesn't give a single damn about the Nuclear Deal or wanting the deal back...Trump wiped his with the Nuclear Deal, effectively....and he could care less because the U.S. has a lot more leverage than the Iranians ever will...and a hell of lot more weapons, nuclear or otherwise, so they don't scare him. I will wager that Trump really wished he had the $1.7 billon back in U.S. coffers, though.
The left CONTINUES to underestimate this POTUS....and its going cost them the White House in 2020 if they don't change their ways....and time is running out!
By that logic, why are we even talking to Saudi Arabia or dealing with them? 9/11 ring a bell?
What are we back to commies under the bed? There were some dark eras in the second half of the 20th century, much paranoia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
It is obvious Trump is undecided about what to do with Iran. He pulled out of a deal that might not have been perfect but it provided a path forward and a possibility of easing of tensions. Trump is a nothing man, nothing anyone did before him is of any value. But we have to stop looking backward, otherwise we are just rear gunners, shooting at what is behind us.
The hand of the Sauds is heavy in US policy, but the US has been a tool in their hands, taking down Iraq, opposing Iran and Tal whether the Sauds, as opposed to their people, are responsible for 9/11, look closer to home
Paraclete: Wow! Are you a mind reader or something? Talaniman alluded to it and you delineated it very accurately: Saudi Arabia produced 15 of the 19 of the 9/11 High Jackers...and that isn't all: They are a dirty bunch that has been abusing and using the U.S. like a rented mule! They are no ally to Washington....and they are the exporters of Wahhabism, the most radical form of radical Islam. I would become a TRUMP FOR 2020 campaigner if he just announced that the U.S. was cutting off all ties to Saudi Arabia tomorrow! I don't like it when we get suckered!
Paraclete: The later half of the 1940s and all of the 1950s were a time when a REAL communist 5th column was at work in the U.S.....it may have been some paranoia but it was some real danger there, too. We should be proud that we had some really brave WWII Vets, like Senator Joe McCarthy and Congressman Richard Nixon, who rolled up their sleeves and exposed the communist conspiracy....it wasn't a hoax! We also must be guarded in "judging" the times of yesterday (history) through the prism of today....like parallax, your understanding and judgements can be distorted by your reference point and the lighting provided unto the subject matter.
I have always beeen careful of idealogical terms like communism, socialism, fascism, marxists and all the other issms because if you examine the humans behind them, its about power and control for a small group that knows best for everybody else. It all amounts to an economic slavery of the mind designed to suppress and oppress a population. Some are steeped in the so called religious domination or non religious really makes no difeerence since the end result is always the same POWER, and CONTROL by the few over the many. Explains why I stay away from groups and the group think thing pretty much, and their so called leaders who much prefer bleating sheep than collective consensus.
For the record though there has been a war going on in the ME for a very long time it's just been a bit unclear who was who, and whose on whose side. They always knew though and as the west catches on to what's really going on, then maybe we back away to a safe distance and let the protagonists kick the crap out of each other.
The stupidity of it is the arms dealers on both sides selling them guns and bullets when all the really need is rocks and clubs. Cheaper that way.
you know Tal you took out the only man who was doing anything about it, Saddam, and why, because the Sauds crapped their pants and Bush ran to help, the Bush family being in the Saud pocket, and now what do we have? Iran ascendency and Where is Trump? contemplating his navel?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I don't know if you have your facts straight at all there Clete, but regime change in Iraq using Cowboy diplomacy proved to be a huge mistake. Not saying there wasn't a lot of corruption surronding the whole deal, both before and after, but that follows dictators of any country, that deals with the so called "free" world.
The players may have changed but the game has always been the same. The love of Mo'MONEY FO' ME. I mean, who can resist that? Shame it takes corrupt dictators to check and balance each other in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
For once I agree with you. What Bush junior did along with Cheney and, sadly, Powell, was illegal, immoral, and, in every possible sense, WRONG! In a fairer world, he would be tried for crimes against humanity. They sowed the wind, and we are reaping the whirlwind.
Athos: And, FOR ONCE, I agree with you! Good summary of my feelings on it, too.
And, what was precipitated out of the other CIA plan, called the ARAB SPRING, was criminal, as well: The Arab Spring B.S. was all about getting a Natural Gas Pipeline from Saudi Arabia to Europe so the damned Germans could cutoff the Russian supply they were buying and help deflate the Russian Confederation, their arch enemy. But there was a fly-in-the-ointment called Syria, who is a Russian ally, sitting square in the way of the planned pipeline route: The whole Arab Spring was designed to take down Syria and Assad.....IT DIDN'T WORK! But, along the way, the Arab Spring managed to kill an estimated 570,000 people in Syria ALONE! How in the name of hell can this slaughter be celebrated in the West when it was a plan hatched in the West and it was a debacle and a loss? Obama thought it was so cute to pull this stunt and now he is out of office and Assad is still in power. And, make no mistake about it: The West created ISIS with the stupid Arab Spring crap.....that were these terrorist sprang up from.....and, to the greatest extent, it was Assad and the Russians that killed the bastards off, not the West!
It does appear that Iran now has a free hand to attack our allies in the region without reprisals except perhaps more sanctions ;Saudi Oil fields ,the Gulf shipping lanes ,their proxies in Lebanon and Syria poised to attack Israel. Are they emboldened by the world's timid response ? Yes . Will they become more emboldened with each tepid response ? Of course . That is the history you should be concentrating on . Why would wobbly states like Qatar bank on us for protection when clearly the 12ers demonstrated that they won't get the support an alliance presumes ?
Just think of the audacity of this attack right before the UN General Assembly (which I'm told that Iran foreign ministerMohammad Javad Zari will attend ....I hope his visa application is turned down) . Trump's "locked and loaded " rhetoric appears to be more meaningless bluff .
Here is another history you should consider . More than once the embers of revolution against the regime have glowed only the be put down without us giving the green revolution any real assistance. This regime continues to rule with their jackboots on the people ;without any real legitimacy . One thing the sanctions have done is make the regime fragile. That is one of the reasons they are taking military risks .A targeted military response could very well unleash that revolutionary movement again.
The regime in Iran is the problem . If the country were not ruled by apocalyptic terrorists hell bent on dominating the region and exporting their brand of revolution ,then the thought of them possessing nukes would be far less terrifying . Even without nukes they are responsible for more terrorist mayhem around the world than any single terrorist group we engage in militarily.
Here is the reality . Iran has been at war with us for 40 years (talk about endless wars ) . When your enemy is determined to attack you then you are at war whether you like it or not . So the bottom line is that regime change is the only real solution to Iran. I'd rather fight it by backing the opposition inside the country 1st . But either way it is a fight we have no choice to engage.
It was only a matter of time before the proxy conflict in Yemen spread beyond those borders as Yemen has been a hotspot for dissadents and terrorists for decades. We still don't exactly know the part that Russia plays in this mess or how our own interests conflict with the regional climate. We do know what happens when our side throws more chaos into an already chaotic situation when we take this regime change thing way to far to fast and misread what the fallout to be as we push the outcome WE want. Maybe we rid the region of an Islamiic State in Mosul region, but did we defeat ISIS? No they just scattered like rats all over the place, and the same will unfortunately be very true in Syria when the Russians and Iranians restore Assads control there which is decidedly not in our interests.
A unilateral military move on our part without a broad coalition of committed allies would just be another Viet Nam on a larger scale, in the desert, instead of the jungle. Regime change from without rather than from within is just a disaster waiting to happem. I sure wouldn't count on the Iranian people revolting against the 12ers because of economic sanctions and especially not over military strikes.
Nor would I trust the Saudis to do anything in our interests without a heavy investment of blood and treasure from us. Frankly I'm tired of hearing how easy it would be to kick somebody's a$$ with our superior military. Only a fool thinks that.
Talaniman: The Middle East is a real sh#& hole...and I don't see that changing. Best we get out and consolidate in the Western Hemisphere!
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