Cohen is reported to have claimed that Trump knew in advance and encouraged the infamous meeting between the Russians and Trump Jr. in Trump Tower for the purpose of getting dirt on Hillary. If true, Trump intended to enter into a conspiracy with a foreign power to influence a presidential election - an impeachable offense.

Cohen is about to spill his guts about all his dealings as Trump's fixer over the years - paying off porn stars, playmates, and God knows what else. Cohen, more than anyone else, knows where the bodies are buried. He has decided to pledge his allegiance to country and family instead of Donald Trump.

Quote:

---

Cohen is reported to have claimed that Trump knew in advance and encouraged the infamous meeting between the Russians and Trump Jr. in Trump Tower for the purpose of getting dirt on Hillary.

---

Even if true, and that's a big "if", it would not be a violation of the law. And even that leaves out the fact that no information was obtained. I think they are chasing the wind on this one.

Certainly a grave political error, but a conspiracy to have meeting, I think it is drawing a long bow. He might be guilty of lying but he hasn't done it under oath, intent? what are we becoming here, the thought police? and if he had the "dirt", what was he going to do with it?

I love the way this is being reported ...explosive !! MSNBC called it an international conspiracy . Cohen's story will not hold up without independent corroboration . He has too much personally at stake . Mueller's team of "investigators " ransacked his offices and home and took a big haul of files away. One thing I keep on saying is that the NY real estate industry is sleazy and I'm sure Mueller found some dirt on Cohen that would pressure him to jump through hoops if Mueller told him to do so.
It sorta reminds me of the Senate hearing in 'The GodFather 2 " . 'Look the FBI guys they promised me a deal . So I made up a lot of stuff...... "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUjjzwIrebQ

Hmmm a campaign meeting with Russians to get dirt on their opponent ...where did we hear that before ?

I think this goes well beyond the NY real estate industry. Try the National and local elections as Mueller has subpoenaed The Dufus business manager, because his name appeared on those TAPES Cohen made. Did Donald Jr. LIE? Of course he did, because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree now does it?

https://politicalwire.com/2018/07/26...ed-to-testify/

Quote:

---

“Allen Weisselberg, a longtime financial gatekeeper for President Trump, has been subpoenaed to testify before a federal grand jury in the criminal probe of Mr. Trump’s former personal lawyer, Michael Cohen,” the Wall Street Journal reports.“Mr. Weisselberg is considered a witness in the investigation… It isn’t known whether he has already appeared before the grand jury or what questions prosecutors of New York’s Southern District have had for him.”

---

They have already subpoenaed The Dufus business records, so yeah the noose tightens. The Dufus may not need to testify before the special counsel since he appears to be a TARGET . If not now, then VERY soon.

Quote:

---

Did Donald Jr. LIE? Of course he did, because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree now does it?

---

Wow. I didn't realize Donald Jr. was Hillary Clinton's son! Go figure. (<:

There are more liars in the world than one, it appears to be stock in trade in certain parts of the world

Of course, it's a violation of the law. Conspiracy law does not require the object of the conspiracy to be carried out, only that two or more conspire for unlawful purposes as was done here.

If credible, Cohen's testimony shows conspiracy, perpetrating a fraud on the United States, soliciting foreign help in a presidential election, and obstruction. It depends on who the jury believes. The choices are Trump; the greatest pathological liar ever seen in public life who denies every single one of his more than three thousand proven lies, or Cohen, a person who admits lying and is trying to mend his ways by cooperating with the prosecution and receiving lesser punishment.

In addition, Cohen possibly has witnesses to corroborate his testimony - Trump has none.

If Trump's collusion can be proved, it will be the biggest political scandal in American history. He will have been shown to be a presidential candidate who sought and received help from a hostile foreign power, hid that fact, and later, as president, returned the favor by his groveling attitude toward Putin, the leader of that foreign power.

Even the Republicans would finally find a reason to stop supporting Trump without fear of losing the votes of their constituencies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

There are more liars in the world than one, it appears to be stock in trade in certain parts of the world

---

There are liars and predators, exploiters and just bad people everywhere Clete.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Athos

Of course, it's a violation of the law. Conspiracy law does not require the object of the conspiracy to be carried out, only that two or more conspire for unlawful purposes as was done here.

If credible, Cohen's testimony shows conspiracy, perpetrating a fraud on the United States, soliciting foreign help in a presidential election, and obstruction. It depends on who the jury believes. The choices are Trump; the greatest pathological liar ever seen in public life who denies every single one of his more than three thousand proven lies, or Cohen, a person who admits lying and is trying to mend his ways by cooperating with the prosecution and receiving lesser punishment.

In addition, Cohen possibly has witnesses to corroborate his testimony - Trump has none.

If Trump's collusion can be proved, it will be the biggest political scandal in American history. He will have been shown to be a presidential candidate who sought and received help from a hostile foreign power, hid that fact, and later, as president, returned the favor by his groveling attitude toward Putin, the leader of that foreign power.

Even the Republicans would finally find a reason to stop supporting Trump without fear of losing the votes of their constituencies.

---

Everyday brings new hope they will get that lying, cheating dufus and his sycophants.

Quote:

---

soliciting foreign help in a presidential election.

---

That would be Chris Steele ;a foreigner , being solicited by the Evita campaign ,through Fusion GPS ,to create an oppo research "dossier " full of unverified and salacious allegations provided to him by Russians close to Putin.

Quote:

---

In addition, Cohen possibly has witnesses to corroborate his testimony - Trump has none.

---

lol maybe that is Glenn Simpson, the co-founder of Fusion GPS, who had dinner with Natalia Veselnitskaya ,(the Russian lawyer who briefly met with Jr at Trump tower), both the day before and the day after she met with Jr . To my knowlege Veselnitskaya has not been interviewed by the Mueller team.
This is so phony . Mueller punted on the Cohen case and handed it off the US 2nd district . That's because the stuff on Cohen has nothing to do with the election .

Quote:

---

Everyday brings new hope they will get that lying, cheating dufus

---

and then what ? Yeah you can take down his associates and family in the legal system and try to use that as leverage . Trump's fight is political .Worse case is that he has to keep 2/3 of the Senate from convicting him of impeachment . That won't happen unless you have overwhelming public support for that action . Like it or not ,you will only be able to defeat him at the ballot box .....and the cast of misfits I see the Dems parading makes that prospect increasingly unlikely .

Quote:

---

If credible, Cohen's testimony shows conspiracy, perpetrating a fraud on the United States, soliciting foreign help in a presidential election, and obstruction. It depends on who the jury believes.

---

Suppose Donald Jr. had met with the Russkies and received some very helpful information on Ms. Clinton. That would not be a crime. If they had given him money, that's a crime, but not information. We might not like that, but it is not illegal. As to perpetrating a fraud on the government of the United States, that's a pretty wild claim. Obstruction of justice? Maybe, but only if, as you said, Cohen is credible.

Look, is Trump a saint? Not even close, but the democrats who nominated Clinton have no room to point fingers. HC is the most corrupt politician in my lifetime with the possible exceptions of Nixon and her husband. Can I agree with a lot of the criticism of Trump? Sure. He has a big mouth and a terrible habit of just saying/tweeting things without thinking about what he is saying, so I have complaints myself. In this last election, we had the most awful selection of candidates I can imagine. If you want to criticize Trump, then go for it, but at least acknowledge that we would not have had a really moral person in office if HC had been elected. The truth is, they are birds of the same feather in more ways than most people care to admit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

That would be Chris Steele ;a foreigner , being solicited by the Evita campaign ,through Fusion GPS ,to create an oppo research "dossier " full of unverified and salacious allegations provided to him by Russians close to Putin.

---

Factually incorrect Tom. For one the repubs hired Steele initially and dropped him after The Dufus bullied his way to the nomination. The Dems picked him up after that, and it was repub John McCain who took the dossier to the FBI. Yes Steele is a foreigner, and ex intel operative for the British who last I checked was a friendly country that often collaborates with OUR intel community for years. You are correct the salacious parts of his dossier have not been verified, but to date the intel part has not been disproved and as the FISA release states the political actors complete with naming names was submitted to a FISA judge appointed by repubs, and renewed 3 times by 3 repub appointed judges, also conveyed additional probable cause to continue surveillance of the target.

I get the plan to put it all on Clinton and the dems, while being deceptive by omitting those pertinent details is the game The Dufus sycophants have engaged in to holler foul on the whole investigation but FACTS IS FACTS and you guys don't like FACTS and that's obvious.

Quote:

---

lol maybe that is Glenn Simpson, the co-founder of Fusion GPS, who had dinner with Natalia Veselnitskaya ,(the Russian lawyer who briefly met with Jr at Trump tower), both the day before and the day after she met with Jr . To my knowlege Veselnitskaya has not been interviewed by the Mueller team.
This is so phony . Mueller punted on the Cohen case and handed it off the US 2nd district . That's because the stuff on Cohen has nothing to do with the election .

---

Let me get this right! Because Mueller passed what he found off to another jurisdiction it makes the case phony? Because he has yet to interview the players you think he should we should paint his handling of the case as phony? I think I would rather see where this investigation goes rather than assume without FACTS how a seasoned and practiced repub appointed prosecutor handles his case.

I find it amusing and fascinating that two years after The Dufus defeated Clinton we are trying to protect the shady characters that he has surrounded himself with over the years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Suppose Donald Jr. had met with the Russkies and received some very helpful information on Ms. Clinton. That would not be a crime. If they had given him money, that's a crime, but not information. We might not like that, but it is not illegal. As to perpetrating a fraud on the government of the United States, that's a pretty wild claim. Obstruction of justice? Maybe, but only if, as you said, Cohen is credible.

---

Receiving STOLEN goods is a crime. Whether you paid for it or NOT. Money doesn't have to be the form of that payment, as favors down the road count the same and Don Jr. alluded to what they wanted a repeal of the MANINSY ACT. He testified he never told his father, is that a lie? Might be. We will see. The whole Trump administration was warned they would be targeted for this type of actions by the Russians, so makes sense they would have reported it and not lied about these contacts, or work so hard to cover them up. Just saying.

As to Cohen's credibility, again we will have to see if Cohens assertions and testimony can be collaborated.

Quote:

---

Look, is Trump a saint? Not even close, but the democrats who nominated Clinton have no room to point fingers. HC is the most corrupt politician in my lifetime with the possible exceptions of Nixon and her husband. Can I agree with a lot of the criticism of Trump? Sure. He has a big mouth and a terrible habit of just saying/tweeting things without thinking about what he is saying, so I have complaints myself. In this last election, we had the most awful selection of candidates I can imagine. If you want to criticize Trump, then go for it, but at least acknowledge that we would not have had a really moral person in office if HC had been elected. The truth is, they are birds of the same feather in more ways than most people care to admit.

---

I have no doubt repubs would have given Clinton the same hell as The Dufus had she won. The same hell they gave Obama, Bush, and all the rest. That's American politics amplified by the silly season of elections to see who retains power. Lets face it, silly season has grown with the advent of so many strides in telecommunications and the Internet, that one silly season follows another so closely that there are no breaks in between any more.

1 Steele did zero of the dossier work while employed by a repub
2 It is not up to the accused to disprove a charge
3 Mueller punted because Cohn's case has no relevance to his charge .
4 Mueller is a deep statist The party labels have no meaning . He's protecting his friend and the agency he once incompetently ran. (specific cases I've already documented )

Quote:

---

I have no doubt repubs would have given Clinton the same hell as The Dufus had she won. The same hell they gave Obama, Bush, and all the rest. That's American politics amplified by the silly season of elections to see who retains power. Lets face it, silly season has grown with the advent of so many strides in telecommunications and the Internet, that one silly season follows another so closely that there are no breaks in between any more.

---

Pretty accurate statement. Politics has become such a mean and ugly business. People of genuine character are becoming fewer and fewer. Meanwhile, we have passed 21 trillion in debt and are heading to 22 trillion. No one seems to notice or care. It's the great national cancer.

1 Steele did zero of the dossier work while employed by a repub

Very true, but the FACT that Steele's work entailed roots in his prior network from years of experience doesn't make it a fraud since it was about DIRT on a political foe.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...=.187b42fad1d5

2 It is not up to the accused to disprove a charge

You better get a lot more specific with that one since innocent until proven guilty is about a court of law not political rock throwing. BIG difference. It's only a charge when law enforcement makes it one in pursuit of a case.

3 Mueller punted because Cohn's case has no relevance to his charge .

Or a better spin is it he uncovered enough evidence of criminal activity that he gave it to another LAW ENFORCEMENT agency as he FOCUSES his resources on the election, the task he was appointed too. Is it his fault The Dufus has so many criminals in his employ? Or YOUR fault for ignoring they were criminals BEFORE they were in the employment of the Dufus?

4 Mueller is a deep statist The party labels have no meaning . He's protecting his friend and the agency he once incompetently ran. (specific cases I've already documented)

Right from the mouth of the Dufus, your documented objections noted. Still The Dufus wanted him for HIS FBI director, until he was appointed special prosecutor.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/13/polit...iew/index.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Pretty accurate statement. Politics has become such a mean and ugly business. People of genuine character are becoming fewer and fewer. Meanwhile, we have passed 21 trillion in debt and are heading to 22 trillion. No one seems to notice or care. It's the great national cancer.

---

I think it's the people of NO character and their sheeple that have become louder and louder that distracts us from the much needed focus on what we should be doing as a nation, and HOW we should go about it. I admit to hunkering down and trying to weather this storm of stupidity. (Should that be hunkering down loudly?)

8D

When you speak of those with "no character", I assume you are speaking of Hillary Clinton. While I generally support Mr. Trump, though frequently with a knot in my stomach, I can assure you I am no one's "sheeple". I voted for him because the alternative was completely awful. Any political party who nominated anyone as incompetent and corrupt as her has no room to point fingers.

Whose sheeple are the left-wing college and university students who riot to prevent people from speaking with whom they do not agree? Strangely, I do not notice conservative students doing that.

You don't have to assume who I meant by those of NO character, it was as I specified.

"people of NO character and their sheeple that have become louder and louder that distracts us from the much needed focus on what we should be doing as a nation,"

No mention of loony right or left wingers. I am glad the guy you voted for turns your stomach, that's a good sign.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

When you speak of those with "no character", I assume you are speaking of Hillary Clinton... Any political party who nominated anyone as incompetent and corrupt as her has no room to point fingers.

Whose sheeple are the left-wing college and university students who riot to prevent people from speaking with whom they do not agree? Strangely, I do not notice conservative students doing that.

---

The Dufus is incompetent and corrupt and he is the president. He turns my stomach too, and I didn't vote for him. Seems neither party can point fingers but we the people have a right too criticize all we want right? Those lefty students are kids, young adults but those racists neo-Nazis are ADULTS and they should have learned better, but the Dufus has made hate speech and actions okay in America.

Quote:

---

Those lefty students are kids, young adults but those racists neo-Nazis are ADULTS and they should have learned better, but the Dufus has made hate speech and actions okay in America.

---

Typical political answer. When leftists engage in violent protest, it's all just due to their youth. But now when Trump supporters are mentioned, they are racists and neo-nazis who should have learned better.

I just wait for the day when Clinton supporters (I assume that would be you) would just be honest enough to admit that she is everything they accuse Trump of being. For me it was simple. Could I vote for the person who did nothing to protect our consulate in Benghazi, pretty much slept while they were attacked and murdered, and then lied about it afterwards? Answer: Nope.

Your right, typical political response. I couldn't vote for a lying cheating Dufus who started his campaign with racially tinged insults. I guess your stomach is stronger than mine. Are you having fun throwing rocks and getting them thrown back at you? That's pretty much what we regulars do so I hope you don't take it personally... NEWBIE.

:)

I love these exchanges. Truth is, we both have to have strong stomachs. I'll say it again. HC is about the same, at heart, as DT. The only thing you have said that has offended me to is call me a NEWBIE. What?? I've been around the plumbing area of this site for about 10 years, but I guess I am new to the Current Events area.

You've been getting out a lot more, that's good.

It's been a ride!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Suppose Donald Jr. had met with the Russkies and received some very helpful information on Ms. Clinton. That would not be a crime. If they had given him money, that's a crime, but not information. We might not like that, but it is not illegal.

---

The crime occurs when "something of value" is transacted. Don't wander in areas where you are not capable.

Quote:

---

but at least acknowledge that we would not have had a really moral person in office if HC had been elected. The truth is, they are birds of the same feather in more ways than most people care to admit.

---

To equate Clinton and Trump on a moral plane is breathtaking. Have you learned a single thing about Trump since he entered the world stage? He is the most morally repellent human being in American history.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Meanwhile, we have passed 21 trillion in debt and are heading to 22 trillion. No one seems to notice or care. It's the great national cancer.

---

How you can say this without mentioning Trump's tax cut for the rich and for corporations with its gigantic increase in the debt without a single economic reason to do it is beyond understanding.

well one could say the economic upturn is a direct result of the new tax rates and please don't give us the nonsense I heard yesterday that the reason for the GDP growth is because farmers are getting soybeans to the market before tariffs come into play.

Quote:

---

The crime occurs when "something of value" is transacted. Don't wander in areas where you are not capable.

---

Actually, I was giving the information put out by Alan Dershowitz. Looks like you are the incapable one.

Quote:

---

To equate Clinton and Trump on a moral plane is breathtaking. Have you learned a single thing about Trump since he entered the world stage? He is the most morally repellent human being in American history.

---

Good grief. There is none so blind as he who will not see.

Quote:

---

How you can say this without mentioning Trump's tax cut for the rich and for corporations with its gigantic increase in the debt without a single economic reason to do it is beyond understanding.

---

Finally you say something sensible. It's full of misinformation, and you manage to say it without mentioning Obama's 10 trillion contribution to it, but at least you do have a valid point.

Why would the surge in exports NOT be a factor at least in the short term? Also maybe you should also take a deeper look into how corporations are investing that windfall permanent tax cut, (You will have to extrapolate to out years) and run the wage gains model and even with those so called bonuses, while you factor in creeping price and interest in enough markets and you may be surprised at where the real economic growth and yes the stagnation really is. Haven't even factored in the debt as that lie that the tax cuts will pay for themselves is an old supply side mantra that never works for very long and is great for a few to skim the cream off the top.

We've been through this before with other repub administrations and it always ends up with a mess the dems have to come in and clean up. You guys have not even thanked Obama for cleaning up Bushes mess, but what can you expect if repubs that have elected dufuses that have thrived on multiple bankruptcies in their business dealings, would make economic messes for the country they run.

A lot can happen in the next 100 days though, so temper your enthusiasm until you get down toward Thanksgiving and see how your New Year looks, and if the guy you righties have slobbered all over has taken care of YOUR pocket. Time to move that 401K Tom into a more lucrative market.

Just sayin'

Democrats buy votes with increased welfare payments. Republicans buy votes by cutting taxes. The rather predictable result is 21 trillion in federal debt.

Chew on this thought for a few minutes. If we really believe that any individual American has a legal claim to part of the wealth of other Americans, as we must believe to have a welfare state, then why not simply issue every poor candidate for welfare a voucher that would entitle them to some of the wealth of another American. So, for instance, a poor person would have a voucher for part of Taliniman's monthly income. They would show up at your door on the first of the month and demand payment. If you refused, then the next month they would show up with a policeman who would enforce the voucher at the threat of arrest. Now that, of course, is what is already being done, except that the feds clean it up by taking money from you in taxes and then giving it to others. The current system makes the politician able to brag of how charitable he/she is and relieves the poor person of the imposition of having to go to your house. I like my plan better because it makes what is going on very plain to everyone involved. What do you think?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Democrats buy votes with increased welfare payments. Republicans buy votes by cutting taxes. The rather predictable result is 21 trillion in federal debt.

---

Do the math. Assistance to the poorest, most woman and children, elderly and some yes, men for two years which is the average stay on welfare, is a lot less than tax breaks that target the wealthiest by far. That does include the working poor and I have used the Walmart example many times here. A job that can't pay the rent is a substandard job, given the employer enjoys local and state tax breaks, uses cheap overseas labor, to sell at cheap prices here, and puts BILLIONS in their pocket every year. To be fair(?) to Walmarts they are raising wages given that many states have raised the minimum wage.

Another example is in my home state of Indiana where Pence was the governor, The Dufus made a big deal out of preventing a company from closing and moving to Mexico, and his solution was a huge state tax break to save jobs which we know only delayed the shutterings long enough for the Dufus and cameras to leave. Naw we can't let those people get public money now can we?

Quote:

---

Chew on this thought for a few minutes. If we really believe that any individual American has a legal claim to part of the wealth of other Americans, as we must believe to have a welfare state, then why not simply issue every poor candidate for welfare a voucher that would entitle them to some of the wealth of another American. So, for instance, a poor person would have a voucher for part of Taliniman's monthly income. They would show up at your door on the first of the month and demand payment. If you refused, then the next month they would show up with a policeman who would enforce the voucher at the threat of arrest. Now that, of course, is what is already being done, except that the feds clean it up by taking money from you in taxes and then giving it to others. The current system makes the politician able to brag of how charitable he/she is and relieves the poor person of the imposition of having to go to your house. I like my plan better because it makes what is going on very plain to everyone involved. What do you think?

---

When the cost of bread goes up, so should welfare payments and SSI, and such. That's the flaw in your plan because you see helping poor people get basics is a bad thing but giving those who have much should be given MORE. I like my plan better, cut corporate welfare out period, and raise taxes on the richest for a while to fund a national upgrade of bridges, schools, roads, energy and tech grids which is long overdue. Less than a 1% increase of tax revenues can achieve this and make MORE consumers, of more people so they live good enough to buy stuff like house refrigerators and FOOD.

The best part is you raise money, make investment opportunities for the long run, and don't add to the debt and deficit because that kind of investment booms the economy and pays for itself with dividends. Yeah I like my plan better it's moree positive, precise, and benefits EVERYBODY.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Actually, I was giving the information put out by Alan Dershowitz.

..... without mentioning Obama's 10 trillion contribution to it, .

---

Alan Dershowitz - that explains it. Find a lawyer who understands the law. Next you'll be quoting Jeanine Pirro. Or Judge Napolitano, he of the conspiracy theories. Change the channel and got off FOX-TV, Trump's State News Channel.

Obama's increase of the debt had a valid reason behind it - namely, to avoid financial collapse. Trump's increase had NO valid reason - it was simply to pay the rich and, more insidiously, to prepare for the reduced funding of Medicare and Medicaid.

Watch as the Republicans who are chiefly responsible for the debt complain that it is too high and government spending must be reduced. Are you so blind not to see this strategy? The Republicans will tell you that cutting taxes results in higher tax revenues. An economic theory that has been discredited time and again, has NEVER increased tax revenues, and continues to be the big Republican economic lie.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Chew on this thought for a few minutes. If we really believe that any individual American has a legal claim to part of the wealth of other Americans, as we must believe to have a welfare state, then why not simply issue every poor candidate for welfare a voucher that would entitle them to some of the wealth of another American. So, for instance, a poor person would have a voucher for part of Taliniman's monthly income. They would show up at your door on the first of the month and demand payment. If you refused, then the next month they would show up with a policeman who would enforce the voucher at the threat of arrest. Now that, of course, is what is already being done, except that the feds clean it up by taking money from you in taxes and then giving it to others. The current system makes the politician able to brag of how charitable he/she is and relieves the poor person of the imposition of having to go to your house. I like my plan better because it makes what is going on very plain to everyone involved. What do you think?

---

You are COMPLETELY clueless when it comes to understanding the role taxes play in any civilized society. That's understandable. Many people are in the same boat as you are. A little education would go a long way. Try it.

taxes isn't the problem . overspending is the issue.

Good grief Athos. Chill out. You get too bent out shape.

As seems to be usual on this thread, you did not address my statement. It is entirely accurate. The government takes money from some Americans to give to others. You might think it's justified, and you are welcome to your opinion, but I don't think any American has any valid legal claim to the possessions of another American just simply because they want it.

As for Alan Dershowitz, he spent most of his career at Harvard Law School where in 1967, at the age of 28, he became the youngest full professor of law in its history. He is very far removed from being a conservative advocate. Sorry if I take his opinion over yours. He is an attorney. As you said, a little education goes a long way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz

Quote:

---

Obama's increase of the debt had a valid reason behind it.

---

Perhaps at first. That would be the TARP program, which eventually spent around half a trillion to stabilize, they said, the financial sector. They also were able to reclaim a large portion of that money. That leaves a mere 9.5 trillion for ???

collusion is not a crime except in rare cases of anti trust . The Trump associates have been taken down with process crimes or from past violations involving their own business dealings. Mueller also slapped

Manafort and Gates with carrying out a conspiracy against the United States. But even that is related to their own businesses trying to hide income from their work for Ukraine .On that thin thread Mueller will try to make a claim that this whole 'collusion' thing is really a conspiracy against the US.

Fusion GPS was hired by Evita's campaign and the DNC ;who then hired Chris Steele ,a former British spy ,to dig into Trump's personal and business dealings. He solicited information from Russian government officials. That work might similarly be viewed as an unsavory effort to engage with foreign interests to win an election. One could say they conspired through a 3rd party to collude with Russian officials to damage the Trump campaign.

IF Jr. sought “dirt” on Evita from the Russians, then according to tal he might be charged with conspiring to violate the election laws which prohibit foreign nationals from contributing any “thing of value” to an electoral campaign. Why wouldn't the Evita campaign be held to the same standard ?

Nah all of that is nonsense Mueller's whole investigation centers on an alleged obstruction of justice. That is why he is looking at tweets and trying to divine Trump's state of mind when he took action against Mueller's buddy Comey.

Taliniman, here's my response.

Quote:

---

When the cost of bread goes up, so should welfare payments and SSI, and such. That's the flaw in your plan because you see helping poor people get basics is a bad thing

---

I think helping poor people is a great thing, and I do so regularly. I just don't think I should be able to force you to do so. And when you talk about helping poor people with someone else's money, it does nothing so show your own sense of charity.

Quote:

---

but giving those who have much should be given MORE.

---

.

You're not giving them anything. When did allowing a person to keep their own money become giving them something? And in case you wonder, I was a school teacher/principal for most of my adult life, so I have no connection to the rich.

Quote:

---

I like my plan better, cut corporate welfare out period, and raise taxes on the richest for a while to fund a national upgrade of bridges, schools, roads, energy and tech grids which is long overdue.

---

Of course you like your plan. It doesn't cost you anything. Before you raise taxes on the wealthy to pay for what you want, you should understand that we borrow hundreds of billions a year, so how do you intend to first cover that shortfall?

Quote:

---

Less than a 1% increase of tax revenues can achieve this and make MORE consumers, of more people so they live good enough to buy stuff like house refrigerators and FOOD.

---

Why do I have the funny feeling that you have not done the math on that? But if we are going to do that, then I will go back to my suggestion. Are you prepared to have a poor person show up at your door with a federal voucher for some of your money?

Careful, Tomder. Facts and truth are not always appreciated in this thread. (<:

You'll appreciate this.

Attachment 49023

And what that proves is both spend too much money it is amazing how much restraint Clinton could have shown

don't kid yourself . Bubba was the beneficiary of a one time dot com stock boom ….. well that and the fact that he actually had the good sense to go along with the Newt Congress reforms of government spending ;

fiscal austerity, central-bank autonomy, deregulated markets, liberalized capital flows, free trade, and privatization

.