Ask Me Help Desk - Ten Months Later

Ten Months Later - Shocking Revelation

The Trump administration did its usual pack of lies, but never so evil as this revealed today.

Trump's people counted the dead in Puerto Rico from the hurricane at 64. 64!

The Harvard Medical Public Health Organization estimated FOUR THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED AND FORTY FIVE DEAD. The number, published in the New England Journal of Medicine Tuesday, has been confirmed by other organizations. The number is expected to increase as the investigation continues.

That's 4,645+ instead of 64!!!

Colludin' Donald lies about his collusion with Russia, the size of his inauguration crowd, explains that Clinton received 3 million more votes than he did because of "illegal aliens", and on and on and on. But this one is extreme even for Colludin' Donald. To miss the death count by thousands requires some extraordinary capacity for evil to stare directly into a camera and lie so easily.

The official estimate was made by the Puerto Rico Dept of Public Safety ;not the Trump adm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

The official estimate was made by the Puerto Rico Dept of Public Safety ;not the Trump adm.

New York Rep. Nydia Velazquez slammed Trump's October remarks, asking whether the thousands of death now constitute as a "real catastrophe."

"By undercounting the fatalities, the true impact of Maria was concealed. By obscuring this, many were left to believe the Trump Administration's mythology that Puerto Rico was not hit hard by Maria," she said in a follow-up statement. "Now, that we are seeing further evidence of what many of us have long maintained - that Maria was an epic disaster"

You're playing semantics. No one is in doubt what the Trump Administration believes re the death toll in Puerto Rico.

The whole response from their fellow American to the PR disaster was/is a shameful disaster in of itself and just another example that MAGA was a big fat lie from a big fat liar.

No surprise there.

Puerto Rico political power is in the Democratic left. They undercounted . You are playing semantics with the truth . The response was and is inadequate .But you padded your case with a distortion .
64 people were killed directly by the storm, but another 4000+ died as a result of the collapse of infrastructure in the wake of the storm. The catastrophe occurred before the storm hit and again you should question who really is responsible for that knowing that the island is in the cross hairs of almost every tropical storm .

So let me get this straight; Trump is responsible for the destruction of a tropical cyclone. His magnificence could have changed the situation with a wave of his hand. What he is guilty of is not recognising that there is a crisis, which if it happened further north, would have had resources thrown at it.
Puerto Rico
needs to decide where it actually stands, fence sitting can not work out for you sometimes.

Quote:

64 people were killed directly by the storm, but another 4000+ died as a result of the collapse of infrastructure in the wake of the storm.

So the dead 4000+ are not victims of Maria???

Clete ,correct .It is well past the time for the island to make a choice....statehood or independence . As for the rest . The left is trying to make this Trump's Katrina . The facts ,thousands of cargo ships went to San Juan alone with supplies only to sit there in port waiting their turn to off load . The supplies rotted while local drivers could not get to the ports . Teamsters plead with stateside drivers to take up the slack .FEMA allocated sufficient funding and the US military participated where they could in clearing roads .
The USS Kearsarge Amphibious Ready Group alone delivered 44,000 pounds of supplies and conducted 144 airlifts.

Getting emergency aid to where it is needed is tough enough .Getting it to an island who's infrastructure to receive it was destroyed is doubly difficult .
In a large event like a hurricane, there are never enough EMTs, police, firefighters, and medical personnel in a place, and it’s impossible to bring them in immediately.

The efforts of local first responders is critical in a crisis . The Cajun Navy jumped right in to take the lead in the response in the Bayou after Harvey .Where was the local effort in Puerto Rico? Like the citizens of New Orleans ,they had been conditioned by the Democrat nanny-state to sit back and wait for the government to do the work while San Juan mayor Carmen Cruz finger pointed and took no blame for the poor local response . PR has had storms that took out electricity before . Where was the plan of action for the next strorm ? If the death toll is where Harvard's "study" says it is ,it was because when it counted ,the local Puerto Rican government failed the people .

WG ,I believe I just answered your question.

Tom disaster relief is problematic at any time and in the third world always disastrous. That PR should be third world is a disgrace, it has been a US dependency for more than a century and should be as highly developed as say Tiawan

They choose their course. They have had a number of referendum votes with 3 options ;status quo territory ;statehood ,or independence. I would make the referendum a two option vote removing status quo. I don't care either way how the vote would turn out ;but the status quo is no longer acceptable.

That is total abdication, Tom, what did those people know to guide them in a decision? Many migrated to the US

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ump/731091001/

Puerto Rico gov submits $25B budget amid deal with board | Miami Herald

Quote:

However, Rossello said federal funds cannot be the only solution to Puerto Rico's economic problems, saying that statehood is needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto...,_2017#Results

Quote:

Governor
Ricardo Rosselló
was strongly in favor of statehood to help develop the economy and help to "solve our 500-year-old colonial dilemma ... Colonialism is not an option .... It’s a civil rights issue ... 3.5 million citizens seeking an absolute democracy," he told the news media.
^[19]
Benefits of statehood include an additional $10 billion per year in federal funds, the right to vote in presidential elections, higher Social Security and Medicare benefits, and a right for its government agencies and municipalities to file for bankruptcy. The latter is currently prohibited.
^[1]

Despite the logistical nightmare of being an island, being a state would certainly help. I mean they can do no worse than Mississippi or a few other states for that matter.

I'm not buying the distinction between died in the storm, or died in the aftermath because dead is dead, because of the storm. The response was/is lousy, and the plan before (WHAT PLAN) was just as lousy. I'll just say that humans screwed it all up. NOW WHAT!

Mother Nature can reek havoc on human plans or lack thereof, just ask the folks in New Orleans, Houston, NY, NJ, or Elliot. Probably couldn't afford STORM insurance.

I have no problem with statehood. I have no problem with independence . I have a huge problem with territory status. Yes status quo is abdication of responsibility . Clete ,like it or not the correct course is to allow the people to determine their status. I don't particularly care about their level of education .That doesn't stop people in this country from going to the polls to make their preference known.

Tal as far a I can tell ,the plan was to sit back and wait for Uncle Sam to save the bacon. That was irresponsible by the island leadership . The time to worry about it was before ;especially since the island has been in the path of many tropical storms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

I have no problem with statehood. I have no problem with independence . I have a huge problem with territory status. Yes status quo is abdication of responsibility . Clete ,like it or not the correct course is to allow the people to determine their status. I don't particularly care about their level of education .That doesn't stop people in this country from going to the polls to make their preference known.

Tal as far a I can tell ,the plan was to sit back and wait for Uncle Sam to save the bacon. That was irresponsible by the island leadership . The time to worry about it was before ;especially since the island has been in the path of many tropical storms.

I think the abdication of responsibility rests with Washington, not with the locals who have limited resources and power. That island should be an economic powerhouse benefiting from its association with the US, but they have been given no incentive for statehood, just left to be a backwater

clearly you have no clue . They have every opportunity to take advantage of their status . What they are not entitled to is endless bailouts from big daddy to cover for their internal corruption and incompetence .Years of progressive leadership has brought them to where they are today .

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

clearly you have no clue . They have every opportunity to take advantage of their status . What they are not entitled to is endless bailouts from big daddy to cover for their internal corruption and incompetence .Years of progressive leadership has brought them to where they are today .

That leadership doesn't appear to have been very progressive, you mean liberal

I believe in the classical liberalism and do not like that lefties have high jacked the word .

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

I believe in the classical liberalism and do not like that lefties have high jacked the word .

Just like fundies have hijacked the term "evangelicals." Fundies AREN'T traditional evangelicals. They have made that word a joke.

PR has never been a high priority in DC. They have never recovered from the meltdown, and that made a bad situation worse. I'm not saying PR bears no responsibility, but the options are severely limited. Even some of our states have fared far worse with their own recovery. They have plenty of incentives for statehood, amongst the better informed. PR can restructure and get some debt relief.

Forget the semantic label acrobatics because a progressive like myself, can be socially liberal, but fiscally conservative, and be neither an fundamentalist or atheist. Labels are not, and never been, nor will be, as accurate as facts, though they are open to interpretations depending on perspective and perception.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Just like fundies have hijacked the term "evangelicals." Fundies AREN'T traditional evangelicals. They have made that word a joke.

As a "fundie" I've never been really sure what "evangelical" means. You can't couple the word traditional with evangelical, that word belongs to institutional religion

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

As a "fundie" I've never been really sure what "evangelical" means. You can't couple the word traditional with evangelical, that word belongs to institutional religion

Evangelicals are those whose mission in life is Matthew 28:19.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Evangelicals are those whose mission in life is Matthew 28:19.

My mission as a fundamentalist is to follow Jesus' instructions, I don't need another tag

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

My mission as a fundamentalist is to follow Jesus' instructions, I don't need another tag

This probably should be on a religion board.

My understanding of fundamentalist is someone who believes the Bible is literal, written by God, and inerrant. Evangelicals are those who preach/proselytize for Christianity. The two approaches have similarities and differences.

In the current context, it has been pretty well established that much of Trump's core support comes from the fundamentalist/evangelical crowd. The surprise is that Trump's personal behavior is so lacking in Christian values that it's difficult to fathom the WHY of that support.

One reason, probably the primary one, is the nature of the religion. Like all primitive religions, it keys on belief rather than on behavior. This leads to excusing Trump's behavior and allowing the devotee to vote his or her single issue - usually abortion.

A secondary reason is a bizarre one. Like Trump, they support Israel, not as a right, however controversial, to be a nation, but since they believe the Jews will ultimately be eliminated as Jews upon their conversion at the last days. The Israelis are well aware of this odd belief but they put up with it as the price of the support.

Let me add that modern Christianity has placed behavior to be the sign of belief. From the Hebrew prophets to the Christian Christ and forward, social justice has been the hallmark of the mature faith.

You need to make up your mind whether the faith is primitive or mature, Tal. I can understand why Christians would be reluctant to support someone like Clinton, so Trump became the problem of not enough choice. People get upset about things they see as impositions so Obamacare would be an issue, and Trump offered the promise of disentanglement and the promise of solving the immigration problem. Social justice is a relative term, personal circumstance demands social justice, but the further away the problem the more it is the hands of God.

You need to separate humanism from belief. It is an issue that has entangled the whole spectrum

I don't have to do anything about any religious notions. Stamp a big 0 on your forehead and chant and rant all you want to. Not on my dime, or time, or in my front yard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

I don't have to do anything about any religious notions. Stamp a big 0 on your forehead and chant and rant all you want to. Not on my dime, or time, or in my front yard.

Fine Tal but remember your nation was founded on religious notions

I am familiar with those religious notions. Holier than thou is but a cover to justify labeling the natives as primitive, conquering them, and forcing them to assimilate to YOUR religious notions. Even you must admit that though you don't call it manifest destiny, the results are still the same. All of this because of somebody's religious notions? Like it confers some sort of superiority because god is on your side.

What does that even have to do with a natural disaster, and the people who went through it? Has everyone forgotten the storm IRMA two weeks before?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/weath...er/1078930001/

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Fine Tal but remember your nation was founded on religious notions

Wrong, again.

The US was founded very specifically on notions that PREVENTED religion from being a foundation stone. It is spelled out most clearly in the very FIRST Amendment to the Constitution.

You may be referring to the "Pilgrim Fathers". If so, wrong again! Their notion of religion was actually anti-religious. If you did not adhere to their religious beliefs, you were ostracized, banished, or otherwise demeaned. Freedom of religion was a concept they were totally against.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

Wrong, again.

The US was founded very specifically on notions that PREVENTED religion from being a foundation stone. It is spelled out most clearly in the very FIRST Amendment to the Constitution.

You may be referring to the "Pilgrim Fathers". If so, wrong again! Their notion of religion was actually anti-religious. If you did not adhere to their religious beliefs, you were ostracized, banished, or otherwise demeaned. Freedom of religion was a concept they were totally against.

Perfect!!! You said it so much better than I could have. From my experience, the last thing on any organized religion's list is tolerance. Thank goodness the Founding Fathers used their brains and set it up so the US wouldn't ever be a theocracy.

You completely misconstrued what I said

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

You completely misconstrued what I said

How so? Please explain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

How so? Please explain.

What I meant was that Christian values went into framing the Declaration and the Constitution. The very idea of equality. Your pilgrims fled religious persecution and ensured over generations that the imposition of a state religion was unacceptable

UPDATE

The 4,000+ death toll from Hurricane Maria is now considered to be invalid based on faulty methodology by the Harvard Group. The number may yet prove accurate but not based on the examined parameters.

However, seven other studies, including by the Puerto Rican government, all have the death toll hovering around 1,000 - a far cry from Trump's 64.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

UPDATE

The 4,000+ death toll from Hurricane Maria is now considered to be invalid based on faulty methodology by the Harvard Group. The number may yet prove accurate but not based on the examined parameters.

However, seven other studies, including by the Puerto Rican government, all have the death toll hovering around 1,000 - a far cry from Trump's 64.

Look all this is playing with statistics, confidence intervals and like climate change, computer modelling, and population sampling, not an actual count. The additional deaths during the 2017 hurricane season ranges from 500 to 1400 depending upon which months you include in the data. Trump might be right 64 died on the day, maybe 1,400 died over three months and maybe those deaths were hurricane related. Who you going to believe? The real issue is that serious problems like power supply have not been resolved. Someone is laying down on the job

The official estimate was made by the Puerto Rico Dept of Public Safety ;not the Trump adm.

The first amendment guarantees the free exercise of Religion and prohibits the formation of a state religion. I wouldn't call that preventing religion from being a founding stone. .. There were many influences on the founders and one of the biggest was Christianity . It is not in the 1st amendment where you find prevention of religion ,but in the Article VI prohibition of religious tests for fedreral office. The founders were creating a limited government and there was nothing in the Constitution preventing states and local government fromhave established religions. Some of them did .
The last state church was disestablished in 1832,

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

The official estimate was made by the Puerto Rico Dept of Public Safety ;not the Trump adm.

The first amendment guarantees the free exercise of Religion and prohibits the formation of a state religion. I wouldn't call that preventing religion from being a founding stone. .. There were many influences on the founders and one of the biggest was Christianity . It is not in the 1st amendment where you find prevention of religion ,but in the Article VI prohibition of religious tests for fedreral office. The founders were creating a limited government and there was nothing in the Constitution preventing states and local government fromhave established religions. Some of them did .
The last state church was disestablished in 1832,

Trump quoted the 64 number - more than once.

Religion - You're seeing the trees but missing the forest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

Trump quoted the 64 number - more than once.

Religion - You're seeing the trees but missing the forest.

Trump says a lot of things, whether they are facts or not I'll leave to you

Actually I'm standing in a clearing wondering what I did with my chainsaw

Quote:

Religion - You're seeing the trees but missing the forest.

Nope The closest thing that supports the argument that "The US was founded very specifically on notions that PREVENTED religion from being a foundation stone" can be found in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists .That happened in 1802 ;15 years after ratification .Jefferson was not even in the country when the Constitution was negotiated and ratified .He was in France. His 'wall of separation ' is a distortion at best of the framer's intent .

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

Nope The closest thing that supports the argument that "The US was founded very specifically on notions that PREVENTED religion from being a foundation stone" can be found in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists .That happened in 1802 ;15 years after ratification .Jefferson was not even in the country when the Constitution was negotiated and ratified .He was in France. His 'wall of separation ' is a distortion at best of the framer's intent .

Jefferson? You mean the slave holder who raped his slave while writing "All men are created equal"? That Jefferson?

You continue to miss the big picture.

yes that Jefferson ;who was also the one who took a copy of the Bible and cut out any reference to God . He was America's first lefty .