"Mommy, Mommy, Please don't let them take me. Mommy, Mommy, please help me".

These are the cries of a five-year-old being wrenched from her mother's arms by a US government employee. It is happening daily on our southern border. President Donald Trump has ordered it to be so with his many diktats governing immigration. Chief of Staff Kelly calls it "tough love".

The mothers are sent back where they came from, usually a desperate crime-ridden situation, and the children - some under a year old - are placed under government "care" where they are subject to the tender mercies of a heartless institution warehousing babies.

If this doesn't break your heart, nothing will.

Did you ever, in your wildest dreams, ever think America would come to this?

Thanks for making this a topic of conversation since the Dufus has decided to use this tactic as part of his immigration policy and it's SHAMEFUL and disgusting. The imbeciles can't even keep track of the kids they kidnap from the parents.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/salvadorher...W8k#.ulXQnyaz3

Seem it happens in every city of the US, daily, when a person (normally a woman) is a criminal and is arrested, and children's services take the child into custody.

It is sad by a person having a child, does not make them exempt from following the law.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Seem it happens in every city of the US, daily, when a person (normally a woman) is a criminal and is arrested, and children's services take the child into custody.

It is sad by a person having a child, does not make them exempt from following the law.

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These are not criminals, you nitwit!

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Seem it happens in every city of the US, daily, when a person (normally a woman) is a criminal and is arrested, and children's services take the child into custody.

It is sad by a person having a child, does not make them exempt from following the law.

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In addition to what Athos said, you must not have any children. You certainly don't have a heart.

There is a huge difference between a legal imigrant and an illegal one. If you think both are the same then you see this as a bad move having to send the mothers / parents back. But if they were legal imigrants and did nothing wrong then the situation should not exist.

The largest question that is looming and no one wants to talk about is; How come mexico cant seem to solve its own problems. If it takes a revolution then that is what it should be. We have enough people here already telling us what kind of crap country the USA is yet you have people commiting illegal acts to get here. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by cdad

There is a huge difference between a legal imigrant and an illegal one. If you think both are the same then you see this as a bad move having to send the mothers / parents back. But if they were legal imigrants and did nothing wrong then the situation should not exist.

The largest question that is looming and no one wants to talk about is; How come mexico cant seem to solve its own problems. If it takes a revolution then that is what it should be. We have enough people here already telling us what kind of crap country the USA is yet you have people commiting illegal acts to get here. Go figure.

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It's just not as crap as the place they come from

Must be pretty bad where they come from if they think it's better to be in a place run by a lying, cheating racists Dufus, and his hollering screaming MINORITY sycophants, who they know thinks they are but animals anyway. That's a case for desperate, and that's how we should deal with it. Even the descendants of Euro immigration can understand desperate can't they? Our own revolution was helped by some foreign guys if I remember right, but obviously returning that favor doesn't apply to our southern fellow AMERICANS, beset by criminals themselves. Yeah REAL criminals, not helpless women and children.

Just want to add that illegal though these woman and children are deemed, does that justify the treatment these desperate people are receiving? I can see if they were endangered or dangerous, like our CRIMINALS are, but this punishment certainly doesn't fit the crime and is unusually cruel to say the least.

And Santorum smiles while trying to defend sending those children into who knows what hell.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/cnn...e-people-time/

https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2...e-issue/220312

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Must be pretty bad where they come from if they think it's better to be in a place run by a lying, cheating racists Dufus, and his hollering screaming MINORITY sycophants, who they know thinks they are but animals anyway. That's a case for desperate, and that's how we should deal with it. Even the descendants of Euro immigration can understand desperate can't they? Our own revolution was helped by some foreign guys if I remember right, but obviously returning that favor doesn't apply to our southern fellow AMERICANS, beset by criminals themselves. Yeah REAL criminals, not helpless women and children.

Just want to add that illegal though these woman and children are deemed, does that justify the treatment these desperate people are receiving? I can see if they were endangered or dangerous, like our CRIMINALS are, but this punishment certainly doesn't fit the crime and is unusually cruel to say the least.

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You always let the rabid politics get in the way, tal, these people have breached your laws, they are law breakers and therefore there are consequences, and they knew this. Open borders is not a good idea as was shown in Europe, your responsibility is to your own people first, not the people of some other place. When you can say you have dealt with the poverty of your own people then you can improve the conditions elsewhere but your bleeding hearts would give it all away without thought

These children are victims of their parent's stupidity but the parents would gladly give them up if they thought it would lead to the children remaining in the US

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Originally Posted by paraclete

You always let the rabid politics get in the way, tal, these people have breached your laws, they are law breakers and therefore there are consequences, and they knew this.

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No doubt people have strong feelings and that's understandable, but consider it's not like people are migrating from paradise, but death and destruction, so the choice between breaking a law and dying isn't such a hard choice. That's how YOUR peeps got to Australia isn't it, and we have had that conversation before, and you should count your blessings the natives had little to no resistance and look at them now, subjects of YOUR laws in THEIR native land. So I do understand the FEAR of strangers taking over and displacing you by my fellow countrymen.

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Open borders is not a good idea as was shown in Europe, your responsibility is to your own people first, not the people of some other place. When you can say you have dealt with the poverty of your own people then you can improve the conditions elsewhere but your bleeding hearts would give it all away without thought

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I beg to differ here Clete, as the Europeans have found out that peace between them starts with a COOPERATIVE effort. The are still early stage in this EU thing and there is much strife from their own loony separatists, who like all nogheads blame their problems on others instead of their own attitudes. Poverty and dwindling resources are a universal human condition, have and have nots, greedy hoarders and suppression for survival, and all the other ancient impulses and attitudes that stifles free cooperation.

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These children are victims of their parent's stupidity but the parents would gladly give them up if they thought it would lead to the children remaining in the US

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No they are victims of OUR stupidity, and fear induced hatred that makes us forget what good human behavior looks like.

Let us not talk about native resistance Tal, the only reason the indigenous exist in the number they do is that they lacked the ability to fight. We saw that happen in your land when the native people fought back. A few thousand people don't have a right to a continent just because they are there, but a coherent nation is something else. Your nation has a right not to be invaded just as mine does

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No they are victims of OUR stupidity

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Here we can agree, your nation has sought to dominate that hemisphere and your policies and paranoia have caused problems and destitution leading to mass migration. You speak of "free cooperation", no one is free to cooperate at the point of a gun or relentless economic domination

Maybe we should do a DNA test on the whites here to verify their pedigree huh?

Human history is one of domination and conquest. No nation has developed peacefully, not even yours, maybe less bloody since you came along after the bloody stuff. And just took over with growing numbers, and more advanced tools and weapons. A superior force, but you came for the same reason that all immigrants do. To get the freak away from the crap at home. Well most did. Some where kicked out HEHEHE! We have had this debate before and you always try to ride your high horse and blame the US for the ills of the world.

Quit playing dumb you know I'm right. Admit it and let your soul be free of delusion. I know were arseholes Clete, so what? Who ain't?

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Your nation has a right not to be invaded just as mine does

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You say that after YOU invaded?

The bottom line here is that legal imigration can allow for a nation to take on peoples from other places at a pace it can absorb. If you run it uncontrolled you will run out of resources and then no one has anything. Is that really what you want ?

Volunteer at a soup kitchen or a church and tell me what you would do when you ran out of "resources". We have had decades to develop resources and processes to deal with desperate people. It cuts along party lines to be fair, but that's no excuse for not addressing the issue and have a better plan.

It's like running a deficit to give the well off a few bucks, and then hollering we ain't got no money for old folks and kids. It's like building warships to send around the world and you can't pay your teachers back for buying school books for YOUR kids. It's like having a freaking parade so the Prez can be saluted like the rest of the dictators, and your cities can't rebuild after a weather event. It's like hollering about YOUR gun rights while kids are murdered by loonies in their school.

That's my point, we seem to have life and BS all mixed up. Looking up the word desperate may help your understanding of the situation. There is just no excuse not to TRY to do better than treat people like animals or disposable commodity.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Maybe we should do a DNA test on the whites here to verify their pedigree huh?

Human history is one of domination and conquest. No nation has developed peacefully, not even yours, maybe less bloody since you came along after the bloody stuff. And just took over with growing numbers, and more advanced tools and weapons. A superior force, but you came for the same reason that all immigrants do. To get the freak away from the crap at home. Well most did. Some where kicked out HEHEHE! We have had this debate before and you always try to ride your high horse and blame the US for the ills of the world.

Quit playing dumb you know I'm right. Admit it and let your soul be free of delusion. I know were arseholes Clete, so what? Who ain't?



You say that after YOU invaded?

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WE did not invade in the sense that you speak of. The British established a penal colony. Not a great idea but they had no real idea about population, from the reports they had the continent was all but empty, little signs of habitation. Coming to Australia was the modern day equivalent of colonising Mars. They had instructions to have good relations with the natives, which contrasts with the way your nation was colonised. Your nation is up there on the list of predatory nations, stop denying it. Manifest destiny is crap, you know it and so do I. In any case the indigenous people were also invaders, came in waves probably from the sub continent and wiped out those who came before. It al sounds like the bleating of sheep to me

My Irish ancestors came as free settlers 30 years after the initial settlement and pioneered virgin country. No war with the natives so do not say to me that I am an invader. I have as much blood in this nation as anyone and my ancestors died defending it

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Originally Posted by cdad

The bottom line here is that legal imigration can allow for a nation to take on peoples from other places at a pace it can absorb. If you run it uncontrolled you will run out of resources and then no one has anything. Is that really what you want ?

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Dad that view is the view of my nation, orderly migration

It's a well kept secret that the British have invaded and colonized damn near every country on earth at one time or another. Australia is but another former colony. LOL, your own form of manifest destiny to justify whatever means you see fit to usurp the natives, take the resources, and make them second class citizens, so don't try the we are better than you argument.

"Get along with the natives" wink wink, nod, nod, INDEED! As long as they bow to your (our) dominance, (Or get wiped out, heaven forbid they defend THEIR country). You may as well use the "bring god to the heathens", or "for their own good".

As to this ORDERLY immigration... what the hell are desperate people supposed to do while you figure it out? Before the Euro invasion desperate people could actually get away from death, destruction, and disaster! I always find it amusing when you separate your Euro ancestors from my Euro ancestors, because you came well after the blood and guts. We're cousins somewhere down the line, and it's you who insults me and loses the argument when you don't acknowledge it!

Maybe you should go back to your grapes if nothing else an excuse for your CARAZY talk. Nothing personal, just an observation you old coot!

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Originally Posted by talaniman

It's a well kept secret that the British have invaded and colonized damn near every country on earth at one time or another. Australia is but another former colony. LOL, your own form of manifest destiny to justify whatever means you see fit to usurp the natives, take the resources, and make them second class citizens, so don't try the we are better than you argument.

"Get along with the natives" wink wink, nod, nod, INDEED! As long as they bow to your (our) dominance, (Or get wiped out, heaven forbid they defend THEIR country). You may as well use the "bring god to the heathens", or "for their own good".

As to this ORDERLY immigration... what the hell are desperate people supposed to do while you figure it out? Before the Euro invasion desperate people could actually get away from death, destruction, and disaster! I always find it amusing when you separate your Euro ancestors from my Euro ancestors, because you came well after the blood and guts. We're cousins somewhere down the line, and it's you who insults me and loses the argument when you don't acknowledge it!

Maybe you should go back to your grapes if nothing else an excuse for your CARAZY talk. Nothing personal, just an observation you old coot!

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Getting cranky in your old age Tal, " natives" here are only second class citizens if they want to be, it's a mind set. I can't solve the problems of the world, cous, and nor can you, and it certainly can't be solved by throwing open the borders and allowing invaders to take over. You once solved the labour problem by importing people from Africa and we solved it by importing people from the south pacific under different circumstances. We no longer need to do that, maybe you don't either, but there is a different ethos in our society to that in yours. We don't want the misery of the ME here, we didn't make those wars and we will not be the dumping ground.

Unlike your nation this land was not drowned in blood so there was no blood and guts to come after

Tal, As far as a national crisis and desperation causing migration that is up to the UN to recognise and do something about. That is what it is there for and what its charter is written about. If one nation like a Mexico is turning into such a bad place then it is up to the UN to do something about it. If they were so desperate then why are they all wanting to come north rather then south of thier boarder ? How come they cant rise up and change things rathewr then coming to the USA in want of changing it into a Mexico ?

Think about it. Also I served more then just a soup kitchen and yes resources are a constant problem.

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Originally Posted by cdad

Tal, As far as a national crisis and desperation causing migration that is up to the UN to recognise and do something about. That is what it is there for and what its charter is written about. If one nation like a Mexico is turning into such a bad place then it is up to the UN to do something about it. If they were so desperate then why are they all wanting to come north rather then south of thier boarder ? How come they cant rise up and change things rathewr then coming to the USA in want of changing it into a Mexico ?

Think about it. Also I served more then just a soup kitchen and yes resources are a constant problem.

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cdad, don't put your faith in the UN, it is a talk fest and nothing more. It is so structured so it cannot actually do anything. If a nation doesn't want to abide by its treaty obligations not much can be done. NAFTA should have changed and enriched Mexico but it didn't, comes back to what I was speaking about in another place. Mindset, it takes generations to lift people out of poverty. Sometimes they have to let go of closely held beliefs and culture. The US prospered because people had to let go of much of what held them back and forge something new. I understand why people want to buy in when they see it from far off, but all they do is drag down those who have achieved something by hard work. If you invite people to come, fine, but if you don't you are under no obligation and all the blather in the UN can't make you obligated

While the idea of the UN is a solid one, the reality is they are helpless in guiding sovereign nations and their internal affairs. It's a long way from consensus to actions and UN authority is easily IGNORED. The situation in Central and South America that sparks this migration of large numbers of people is not a new one nor a simple one to solve for them or us, or together, let alone stop it.

That doesn't mean we have to bar the doors and treat it like the zombie apocolypse, or act in FEAR and holler invasions, and not just ignore the pleas of the desperate, but criminalize and punish them. I just do not agree we are acting as the great nation we say we are. At least stop tauting your Christian bonifedes while acting like barbarians.

Is that not the definition of hypocrisy?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

At least stop tauting your Christian bonifedes while acting like barbarians.

Is that not the definition of hypocrisy?

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You act like you are the only one with problems. At least, for the most part, you are being invaded by Christian people, unfortunately for you they are also poor. This contrasts highly with what others are facing. Cashed up Muslims make their way across the world and ignore the borders in Europe and Africa.

Don't talk to us about behaving like barbarians until you stop invading other peoples' countries

My reference to barbarians was about the US policy toward desperate people Clete, as was my reference to hypocrisy, which seems to my humble observations as a cranky older American (Arthritis will do that some days.), to be steeped in hollering and flag waving and less to do about the good orderly direction necessary for problem solving in cooperative ways.

That's why I VOTE, but if the shoe of hypocrisy fits you then wear the bad boy!

Why are parents illegally crossing the border knowing there is a chance they can be separated from their children ? Let's be real about where the real problem lies .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Why are parents illegally crossing the border knowing there is a chance they can be separated from their children ? Let's be real about where the real problem lies .

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I'm sure they have no idea that the wonderful, nurturing USA that has sheltered millions of immigrants (including my non-English-speaking ancestors) -- "give me your tired, your poor" -- would be so cruel as to separate them from their children.

I guess laws means nothing to them. The US has always had immigration laws. The problem is enforcement. They are shocked that someone would actually enforce the law.

Should the law apply the same to desperate people running from dangerous situations. Or should we have a humane process to deal these folks? What you call the way Trump and Sessions way of applying the law HUMANE?

That's the problem here Tom.

Your humane process is to leave them on the southern side of the border

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I guess laws means nothing to them. The US has always had immigration laws. The problem is enforcement. They are shocked that someone would actually enforce the law.

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The man/men enforcing the law are NOT doing a good job!!!!

Tal even refugee crisis needs to be controlled. As harsh as it sounds to the liberal sensitivities ,we cannot take all refugees in. Even back in WWII we did not take in Jewish refugees from Europe. Back in a saner time we had places like Ellis Island to screen legal immigrants . But years of poor border control led us to a point where it is assumed that once someone crosses the border illegally they are now eligible for citizen treatment and rights . It is absolute nonsense.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Tal even refugee crisis needs to be controlled. As harsh as it sounds to the liberal sensitivities ,we cannot take all refugees in. Even back in WWII we did not take in Jewish refugees from Europe. Back in a saner time we had places like Ellis Island to screen legal immigrants . But years of poor border control led us to a point where it is assumed that once someone crosses the border illegally they are now eligible for citizen treatment and rights . It is absolute nonsense.

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What you need Tom, is a ticket to leave, perhaps giving them an exit bonus would help. It really wouldn't matter if you took in all genuine refugees, it is the economic migrants who come in vast numbers, it is the left who cannot tell the difference

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Your humane process is to leave them on the southern side of the border

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We didn't bring them, they came and got caught. How did you handle your boat people in their raggedy water vessels?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The man/men enforcing the law are NOT doing a good job!!!!

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That's more to my point. The heavy handed way the law is applied and enforced. Actually though lack of action by our well paid legislators makes the problem worse.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Tal even refugee crisis needs to be controlled. As harsh as it sounds to the liberal sensitivities ,we cannot take all refugees in. Even back in WWII we did not take in Jewish refugees from Europe. Back in a saner time we had places like Ellis Island to screen legal immigrants . But years of poor border control led us to a point where it is assumed that once someone crosses the border illegally they are now eligible for citizen treatment and rights . It is absolute nonsense.

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Most of those refugees died at the hands of the Hitler crew, yet did we learn anything from that lesson? So basically you are saying it's okay to send desperate people seeking safety and security to be sent back to their deaths? That's beyond harsh Tom, but obviously not too harsh for conservative sensibilities.

But if that's all you got....!

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Originally Posted by paraclete

What you need Tom, is a ticket to leave, perhaps giving them an exit bonus would help. It really wouldn't matter if you took in all genuine refugees, it is the economic migrants who come in vast numbers, it is the left who cannot tell the difference

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The truth about migrants is they come poor, but their children, and children's children, contribute greatly. That's the history of the USA. That is what makes us great, and keep us great no matter what the haters and fear mongers are yelling about. Maybe that's who should be prosecuted and DEPORTED... maybe you Aussies could take them since you read from the same bible and talk the same hate crap.

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The truth about migrants is they come poor, but their children, and children's children, contribute greatly. That's the history of the USA.

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During this entire month, I've been in a Chicago-area hospital and healthcare rehab facility. The majority of the medical and physical therapy teams and housekeeping staff and medivan drivers are black, Mexican, Filipino, and Indian. Many are women. All are well-trained, knowledgeable, do their work well, and are caring. What would this country do without them????

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The truth about migrants is they come poor, but their children, and children's children, contribute greatly. That's the history of the USA.

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The other truth is that they come here legally ....or that used to be a truth. The new truth is that there are people in this country who are not comfortable with concepts like nationhood and sovereignty . They think the notion of national borders and national identity is a quaint 18th century concept .

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The truth about migrants is they come poor, but their children, and children's children, contribute greatly. That's the history of the USA. That is what makes us great, and keep us great no matter what the haters and fear mongers are yelling about. Maybe that's who should be prosecuted and DEPORTED... maybe you Aussies could take them since you read from the same bible and talk the same hate crap.

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Tom we take a lot of legitimate migrants and we wouldn't mind Christians among them. We understand as well as anyone the problems of illegal immigration. We also take refugees, that is those who are proven to be refugees. However, unlike yourselves, we do not have an unlimited capacity. Integration is always an issue. Give me a Hispanic Christian over a Muslim any day

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We didn't bring them, they came and got caught. How did you handle your boat people in their raggedy water vessels?

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Tal we put them in life boats and send them back, if that doesn't work we have some nice holiday camps on tropical isles far from the crowd where we try to convince them they we better off where they came from

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The other truth is that they come here legally ....or that used to be a truth. The new truth is that there are people in this country who are not comfortable with concepts like nationhood and sovereignty . They think the notion of national borders and national identity is a quaint 18th century concept .

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That's why we vote every two years and have checks and balances because we are a nation of different views and opinions. Politicians are trying to keep their jobs but voters want what we want.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

That's why we vote every two years and have checks and balances because we are a nation of different views and opinions. Politicians are trying to keep their jobs but voters want what we want.

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You would be better off if you voted far less often and got on with the job instead of talking about it, your "democracy" has parralised you

A big country with our population has to move slowly. I don't expect you to understand that given your own dislike of us.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

A big country with our population has to move slowly. I don't expect you to understand that given your own dislike of us.

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You have to remember is what I dislike is what the system has produced and its outcomes in the world. There is no excuse for sloth on important issues, a large country has the resourcing to get on with the job. I understand as well as anyone how the system can get bound up by partisan politics, but it is possible to get things done if there is goodwill.

I don't believe in all out socialism, but caring for people is important, it is part of what we put governments in power for, to get the things done we, as individuals, can't accomplish. This seems to be lost in the rush for self aggrandisement. We have a national sport here of cutting down tall poppies so we truly dislike an individual like Trump who makes too much noise about himself. We too suffer from a truculent, recalcicant, Senate where the views of minorities are widely represented. However, we do seem to move on.

Despite the lack of perfection, and the distraction of the greatest circus on earth, and the long enduring tribal war, we move slowly, albeit steadily. It's not a simple thing to get the proper direction with opposing forces, nor as easy as we make it look. You find that out as you grow.