In March 2002, President George W. Bush imposed a 30% tariff on Chinese steel. The results were chaotic.
The tariffs boosted the overall prices of steel and cost the U.S. 200,000 jobs in businesses that buy steel, representing $4 billion in lost wages.

http://www.tradepartnership.com/pdf_...02jobstudy.pdf

Quote:

---

This study employed straight-forward and widely-accepted regression analysis using a variety of price and employment data to maximize the reliability of the results. We found that (bold added):
• 200,000 Americans lost their jobs to higher steel prices during 2002. These lost jobs represent approximately $4 billion ($5.5 billion in today’s dollars) in lost wages from February to November 2002.
• One out of four (50,000) of these job losses occurred in the metal manufacturing, machinery and equipment and transportation equipment and parts sectors.
• Job losses escalated steadily over 2002, peaking in November (at 202,000 jobs), and slightly declining to 197,000 jobs in December.
• More American workers lost their jobs in 2002 to higher steel prices than the total number employed by the U.S. steel industry itself (187,500 Americans were employed by U.S. steel producers in December 2002).
• Every U.S. state experienced employment losses from higher steel costs, with the highest losses occurring in California (19,392 jobs lost), Texas (15,826 jobs lost), Ohio (10,553 jobs lost), Michigan (9,829 jobs lost), Illinois (9,621 jobs lost), Pennsylvania (8,400 jobs lost), New York (8,901 jobs lost) and Florida (8,370 jobs lost). Sixteen states lost at least 4,500 steel consuming jobs each over the course of 2002 from higher steel prices.
• The analysis shows that American steel consumers have borne heavy costs from higher steel prices caused by shortages, tariffs and trade remedy duties, among other factors. Some customers of steel consumers have moved sourcing offshore as U.S. producers of steel-containing products became less reliable and more expensive. Other customers refused to accept higher prices from their suppliers and forced them to absorb the higher steel costs, which put many in a precarious (or worse) financial condition. The impact on steel-consuming industries has been significant.

---

The costs of protectionism always outweigh the benefits, and the jobs lost always outweigh the jobs saved, and that net loss of economic value is also reflected in stock market values ...the losses in market value suffered broadly by steel using industries outweighed the concentrated gains to the firms in the protected industry.

This model also held true when Reagan imposed tariffs to protect Harley Davidson. It is too early to gage the impact of Trump's silly tariffs on Canadian lumber and paper .One

small company in Washington state, Northern Pacific Paper, pushed for the paper tariffs . It employs 260 workers.

A Canadian company that employs 2,500 Americans will be hit by both the lumber and paper tariffs. There is the logic of protectionism in a nut shell. Trump argues that the steel tariffs are a national security concern . But that argument falls on it's face when you consider that American industry uses 70% US steel ,and a good part of the balance is supplied by allies .

All his steel tariffs will do is drive the cost of the raw materials used in industries like ......oh let's say the CONSTRUCTION industry ...of which Trump is allegedly a captain of . . go figure .

Trump has to do something to keep his constituency happy, and shooting at offshore targets is his way. So now the heat is off on gun control while everyone focuses on the fallout from a trade war and Russia's new nukes. You have to accept the truth, american industry isn't as competitive as it used to be. There is a reason why manufacturing is done in low wage countries. However a new opportunity is opening up for innovative american industry, China no longer wants to import rubbish (recycled waste) for processing.

America dominated post war when most of our competition was in rubble . It was inevitable that the US would give up market share . And it is a good thing. We have given up making trinkets and our manufacturing sector is thriving thank you very much with 21st century manufacturing . The emperor's shackles are being dismantled and American innovation unchained will dominate the future . We do not need protectionism for our products except for outright theft like the Chinese are wont to do.

Contrary to popular belief Dufus has done nothing to change the basics of a solid economy he walked into, and I just got my $25 dollar tax cut. How much was yours Tom?

Darn I just wrote a ton on this in the other thread, so we agree on his trade war stupidity, but as I have maintained he needed to change the subject from his WH woes, and the Mueller investigation, and the gun control stuff. He is the best at that, but he better figure out the process quickly or his party will suffer.

It ain't even spring yet!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

America dominated post war when most of our competition was in rubble . It was inevitable that the US would give up market share . And it is a good thing. We have given up making trinkets and our manufacturing sector is thriving thank you very much with 21st century manufacturing . The emperor's shackles are being dismantled and American innovation unchained will dominate the future . We do not need protectionism for our products except for outright theft like the Chinese are wont to do.

---

You really do have to stop drinking that Koolaid Dump is dispensing. If you look at history civilisations rise and decline, the decline is painful and they are never as strong as they were before, but Britain has shown the way, they survived the dismantling of their empire, lots of pain but now they are strong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

It ain't even spring yet!

---

Beware the ides of March tal

The Chinese have plenty up their sleeves, and more to come, since they made Xi the president for life. That alone would make The orange Dufus green with envy.

Quote:

---

If you look at history civilisations rise and decline, the decline is painful and they are never as strong as they were before, but Britain has shown the way, they survived the dismantling of their empire, lots of pain but now they are strong

---

Britain is a basket case . Their empire is dismantling on their own island .But their empire lasted a good 500 years . The Republic of Rome lasted 500 years and the empire 1500 years . Our greatness is in it's infancy .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

. Our greatness is in it's infancy .

---

I really don't want to shatter your illusions and your sense of history is a little off. You have already had to give up parts of your empire and your recent acquisitions have not gone well.

territory of empires ebb and flow throughout history . Britain's greatest time came after they lost the American colonies . They would've lost Aussie too if your nation did not breast feed for so long.

America willingly gave up territory conquered ....something unique in the history of empires . Yes we won the continent at the point of the sword ,and through purchases . The only territory we retain from the Spanish American war is Puerto Rico and Guam ;and Puerto Rico could opt for independence any time they want to. We took no territory after the 2 world wars.Instead we stood as guardian at the gates making sure the communist nations did not enslave all of the nations liberated from Japan and Germany . Our forays into the ummah are to battle an extreme ideology ;not territorial acquisition Had we used the tactics of the Brits to suppress their colonies instead of liberating nations then we would have the most expansive empire in world history .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

I really don't want to shatter your illusions and your sense of history is a little off. You have already had to give up parts of your empire and your recent acquisitions have not gone well.

---

You wish! Despite the challenges and obstacles we are still growing as dynamically as anybody. Just can't give the top dog credit for still being the top dog can you? Doesn't matter not one bit what the rest of the dogs are yapping about, or what they do about it!

Now what?

double uugh !!! Now he is threatening a trade war with the EU ! https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...94273121820672

Domestic auto makers in the US are NOT suffering from EU competition. In fact many of the Euro brands have opened plants in the US and hire American workers ;including Fiat /Chrysler ;VW , Volvo And BMW . BMW hires almost 9,000 US employees in SC .VW 2000 in Chattanooga; Mercedes-Benz 4000 in Alabama. I guess it is a safe move because tariffs would not work on US cars sold in Europe . Most Europeans do not like American cars so the market isn't all that big to begin with .

Tom, Dump has little understanding of anything outside his narrow sphere of influence. He doesn't know how international trade works, he doesn't know how diplomacy works, he doesn't know how politics works, and he certainly doesn't know that economies transition.

Dump does not understand that the EU and China are very big trade partners, the flow of raw materials is important, and the flow of manufactures equally important. He doesn't understand that NAFTA has meant a broader sphere than just the US, there is an interdependancy.

You can get in to the micro economics of autos or steel manufacture and fabrication, whiskey or aeroplanes, which is the level Dump operates but he has to learn macro economics

He's a hit with the shock-jock crowd and the anti-liberals, and anti- government and a bunch of other dissatisfied constituents, and his base is the same base repubs will need to hold power during the coming elections, and they don't dare openly oppose him, no matter what he says or does. He knows that, and plays it like a fiddle.

It's Trumps party and establishment repubs can cry if they want to, as long as they fall in line.

Wish me luck as you wave me goodbye, Dump is engineering a crash so his buddies can take over

That's exactly what The Dufus wants. Get everyone excited and hair on fire over his words. Will the repubs in the congress act to curb his impulses? To address the REAL national security issues we face, both foreign and domestic? That's the real question.

He's a Dufus and everybody knows that!

So the bully in chief is at it again!

Trump Gives New NAFTA or Tariffs Ultimatum to Canada, Mexico | Fortune

Quote:

---

Trump’s decision on tariffs came on Thursday in the middle of talks, catching negotiators off guard. On Sunday, Trump’s senior trade advisers said the president doesn’t want any nation excluded from the tariffs, set to be imposed as early as this week. Canada, the biggest supplier of steel and aluminum to the U.S., and Mexico, the No. 4 source of steel, have asked to be excluded, and both indicated they will strike back if Trump includes them in the stiff duties.

---

You may as well disband NAFTA now, this is what Dump wants; a protectionist barrier. He is all about building walls, tariff walls, border walls, before long he will build a great internet fire wall just like his buddy Xi.

I wonder does he lay awake at night and ponder how he can screw everyone

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

I wonder does he lay awake at night and ponder how he can screw everyone

---

He wants to be President for Life and Emperor of the US.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

He wants to be President for Life and Emperor of the US.

---

Could you imagine that a dingbat on the throne for life, he will probably outdo farmer George in stupid ideas. You remember he was the one who imposed a tax on tea, and lost the americas.

George was mad . But it was Parliament that imposed the

Townshend Acts of 1767, named after Charles

Townshend ,the Chancellor of the Exchequer who proposed the taxes . Ironically it was a form of tariff because the colonies did not produce their own tea (there were also import duties on

glass, lead, paints, paper

). Well that had the predictable result . The colonist used less of these items and organized boycotts and of course there was smuggling . So Lord North rescinded the provisions except for tea . The

1773 Tea Act was passed, which allowed the East India Company to ship tea directly to the colonies. Then there was the Tea Party led by the Sons of Liberty and one of my favorite Founders ;Samuel Adams ,the cousin of John Adams .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

George was mad . But it was Parliament that imposed the

Townshend Acts of 1767, named after Charles

Townshend ,the Chancellor of the Exchequer who proposed the taxes . Ironically it was a form of tariff because the colonies did not produce their own tea (there were also import duties on

glass, lead, paints, paper

). Well that had the predictable result . The colonist used less of these items and organized boycotts and of course there was smuggling . So Lord North rescinded the provisions except for tea . The

1773 Tea Act was passed, which allowed the East India Company to ship tea directly to the colonies. Then there was the Tea Party led by the Sons of Liberty and one of my favorite Founders ;Samuel Adams ,the cousin of John Adams .

---

Tom you can't let the facts get in the way of a good story or a little bit of rhetoric

True ,but the myth no longer matches the facts .He was not the one responsible for the policies that lost the American colonies . He in fact decided that it was no longer in the Kingdom's interest to prolong the war .

Washington did not believe that we were revolting against the monarchy . He and his offices toasted the King during meals .

He was one of the most enlightened men in England . His 65,000 books formed the backbone of the British Library . He also established

the Royal Academy of Arts. His interest in agriculture rivaled Jefferson's . His so called madness was a blood condition called porphyria which causes abdominal pain and epileptic like fits .His doctors gave him ' James powder ' which had arsenic in it ,which actually triggers porphyria attacks . Modern scientist believe he suffered bi polar symptoms . But those began to manifest themselves after the American Revolution.

Ok Tom, it was the British version of Congress that caused the problem, just goes to show politicians weren't anymore as trust worthy then as they are now

Well top economic advisor Gary Cohn resigned yesterday amid all the tariff talks, and that can't help the NAFTA negotiations. I doubt the Canadians or Mexican want to be bullied into a new deal here even with The Dufus dispatching his son in law to help out the talks.

The Dufus is also being sued by his porn star paramour, while Mueller bags another one.

Mueller investigation turns to UAE adviser: NYT

I'm going to need a LOT more popcorn just to get through March.

Ah the ineveitable arab

They're in it up to their ears.

maybe Mueller will tie Trump in with those murdered Russians in England .

As far as Herr Donald's tariffs .......... he gives middle class tax cuts and then proposes tariffs that will raise consumer costs well above any tax break they receive . Schmuck !!!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mark...cid=spartanntp

You know the though just occurred to me, tariffs on steel make guns more expensive

One of Trump's representatives was on the news claiming the aluminum tariff will only raise the cost of beer a penny . We are apparently supposed to believe that the only product aluminum goes into is beer cans . Idiot !!! .

Good thing Chicago's South Steel Works and Pittsburgh's steel mills are still operating. Oooooops, they're not. Hmmmm....

and you seriously think that slapping Canada with tariffs would make a difference ? The last time someone slapped limited tariffs on steel from China ,more jobs were lost in the county than all the jobs in the steel industry combined . Trump has trade grossly wrong .

Milton Friedman said :

Quote:

---

In the international trade area, the language is almost always about how we must export, and what’s really good is an industry that produces exports, and if we buy from abroad and import, that’s bad. But surely that’s upside-down. What we send abroad, we can’t eat, we can’t wear, we can’t use for our houses. The goods and services we send abroad, are goods and services not available to us. On the other hand, the goods and services we import, they provide us with TV sets we can watch, with automobiles we can drive, with all sorts of nice things for us to use.The gain from foreign trade is what we import. What we export is a cost of getting those imports. And the proper objective for a nation as Adam Smith put it, is to arrange things so that we get as large a volume of imports as possible, for as small a volume of exports as possible.This carries over to the terminology we use. When people talk about a favorable balance of trade, what is that term taken to mean? It’s taken to mean that we export more than we import. But from the point of our well-being, that’s an unfavorable balance. That means we’re sending out more goods and getting fewer in. Each of you in your private household would know better than that. You don’t regard it as a favorable balance, when you have to send out more goods to get fewer coming in. It’s favorable when you can get more by sending out less.

---

He also said that if a nation is dumping it's products on our market we should consider it a form of foreign aid to the US . I make exception to the argument of national security . But we already use 70% domestic steel in our market . The next 2 biggest imports of steel comes from allies Canada and Mexico. A very small percentage comes from China and other nations . So the national security argument holds no water.

Trump exempted Mexico and Canada from the tariffs, and left the door open for more exemptions for other countries, while checking another box for a campaign promise kept. For all the noise we could be at a zero total game.

If you exempt the main suppliers and China is 2.7% of the problem, it is difficult to see who, or what, is the real target. I suspect he is just playing to a audience as he did with DACA. Anyway, he has swept other contensous issues off the plate for the moment

Quote:

---

I suspect he is just playing to a audience

.

---

yup and it makes no sense. Just his deregulation moves along with the tax cuts is going to drive up demand for US steel and aluminum. The workers are better off. The captains of the industry that still want to feast on the government teat ;too bad . Compete for your market share !

Quote:

---

Trump exempted Mexico and Canada from the tariffs, and left the door open for more exemptions for other countries,

---

yes and he's been on the horn with Turnbull too.

Quote:

---

Trump exempted Mexico and Canada from the tariffs, and left the door open for more exemptions for other countries,

---

yes and he's been on the horn with Turnbull too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

yes and he's been on the horn with Turnbull too.

.

---

Yes, he has exempted Australia, but we are not a big supplier, only supplying speciality product so that doesn't cut into what he is trying to achieve. Not sure what that is exactly, he wants polluting industries returned to the US and he is contravening existing agreements. That doesn't give surity for entering into FTA's with the US.

Dump's problem is he has no sense of history. He is a marionette

He is a DUFUS, and so does dumb stuff! Want to help steelworkers? Increase demand with a huge rebuilding program and use American steel! I mean DUH! The steel industry just got a tax cut like everybody else so did they use it to create jobs? Heck no, they gave the board of directors the money and hollered for MORE! I'm a steelworker and the handwriting has been on the wall for decades. Modern steelmaking processes use bots and techs that can run the computers, not 50 guys to dump the bucket, or swing a hammer.

Dufus claims to be a master builder so build stuff and not just a wall! HMM at least instead of concrete use STEEL! Then you can hook up a generator and electrify the bad boy!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

He is a DUFUS, and so does dumb stuff! Want to help steelworkers? Increase demand with a huge rebuilding program and use American steel! I mean DUH! The steel industry just got a tax cut like everybody else so did they use it to create jobs? Heck no, they gave the board of directors the money and hollered for MORE! I'm a steelworker and the handwriting has been on the wall for decades. Modern steelmaking processes use bots and techs that can run the computers, not 50 guys to dump the bucket, or swing a hammer.

Dufus claims to be a master builder so build stuff and not just a wall! HMM at least instead of concrete use STEEL! Then you can hook up a generator and electrify the bad boy!

---

But Tal they didn't give him his wall, it would have used huge amounts of steel, so he has to help his constituents out some other way, and what happened to his infurstructure program, the problem is that obstructionist congress and senate, they just won't get out of the way and let the man work. If they did he could sweep you into trump utopia,a world of pristine golf courses and tall buildings, of new bridges and big walls,

The steel industry will NEVER be the employer it once was . Automation took care of that ,not a declining market share . Government subsidy just delays the inevitable . IF the steel industry is so critical to national security as herr Donald claims ,then the defense industry should take over United Steel .

But his argument is nonsense as well as yours is Tal. If you want to build infrastructure and foreign steel is in fact cheaper then why would you expect the taxpayer to pay top price for the steel used to build the infrastructure ? The tie up in Congress is funding . Typical politicians ;they pass tax relief and immediately search for ways to increase taxes . We know how this plays out . They want to increase gas taxes to pay for infrastructure . But they can't answer where all the money in the Highway Trust fund has gone. You do know that without adding a dime to existing spending that the Highway Trust fund will be insolvent by 2021 ? 2016 our lawmakers transferred $70 billion from general revenue to the fund .

Over the next decade, spending will exceed revenue and reserves by $139 billion....before any increase in spending is made . It is estimated that they would need to increase the national gas tax by 10 cents/gallon just to fund existing spending (it is already at

18.4-cent

/gal).If that was the only excise on gas then maybe you could make the case for increasing the tax . But every taxing authority wants to wet their beak in that trough . Here is NY a

20 gallon fill-up, costs $13.80 in taxes.(Federal ,State ,Local,Motor Fuel excise ,Petroleum Business tax ,

state fund dedicated to petroleum-spill cleanup and to a fund for the state’s fuel testing program. And the real irony of it is that taxing is a disincentive for using it . With that and fuel efficiencies there is less of a demand for gasoline . So all their calculations are way off. That is why taxing authorities are looking for more creative user fees like increase use of EZ Pass tolling .Here bridges that used to be free to drive over suddenly have EZ Pass and license scanners . In NYC Sandinista Bill wants to have so called " congestion tolls " in down town NYC . It's a big rabbit hole. A real audit of funding spending would find criminal racketeering in the inefficiency.