Brexit? Should Great Britain leave the European Union?

Britons don't like bureaucracy and the EU is bureaucracy on steroids. It could be thought that the EU is Germany's revenge for losing the war. The Britons don't like the straight jacket but have reaped economic rewards. Britain has not embraced currency union, or the very liberal immigration of the EU, so there is good reason to put up the barriers. Parts of the UK have become muslim enclaves. Now faced the prospect of hordes from the south, Britain must decide

No, I don't believe it should happen. But we will know tomorrow. Muslim enclaves are every where, clete, not only the UK.

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Originally Posted by tickle

No, I don't believe it should happen. But we will know tomorrow. Muslim enclaves are every where, clete, not only the UK.

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Indeed we even have them here, though not to the same extent as Britain. I think the British people should follow their own destiny,
Otherwise they might be like the original people of Britain and cease to exist

Personally I think Britain would be smart to leave, they were Very smart to keep their own currency.

ITALY for example was far better off before it, prices doubled overnight after adoption, wages didn't.

Except for the lazy segment of the population (who we have a name for here, "popolino, or popolini for plural), most Italians I know wish the EU never existed. What is happening now is Germany, Belgium and to a lesser degree France is imposing their will on the rest, and they aren't very happy about it.

Yes, we have a name for the lazy segement of the population too, but I'm not allowed to use it. Yes, it is clear the Belgians won the peace and the Germans have the muscle. I'm completely lost as to how Britain could have got into bed with traditional enemies but then the poms always were a funny lot, so a couple of generations on, I can see they would want to change

Britain benefits from being part of a larger trading/social block, and why they would think that sovereignty is more important is beyond me, considering especially the times and shared enemies in the form of criminal terrorists, and the need to cooperate, rather than separate.

Economically can Britain even compete with Russia and China without the EU, or Asia for that matter?

Do you really have any idea how big the Russian economy is? It is not a superpower economically. Our GDP is almost bigger than theirs. Britain has the fifth largest GDP in the world so is more than a match for many others. No one competes with China.

Obviously Britain would be better off for a number of reasons, it would no longer be stiffled by EU policy

I respectfully submit it's the British reluctance to more influence the EU monetary policy that weakens them both. Their participation thus far can only be characterized as half a$$ at best, and the EU is more dependent on Russia and China than they are Britain, despite the problems with both their economies.

Ranks don't matter when they are all just puddling along at less than half speed. That's what's painfully obvious, as the cost of doing business as an independent will be a lot more expensive without the group rate. That too is OBVIOUS!

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Indeed we even have them here, though not to the same extent as Britain. I think the British people should follow their own destiny,
Otherwise they might be like the original people of Britain and cease to exist

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And how did the original people of Britain cease to exist ? I don't understand what you are saying here. Can you explain.

Long ago before various invasions from europe and beyond, the inhabitants of Britain were a different lot, more like the people of Ireland but in England and in other places the inhabitants were oppressed and hunted down. Those invaders included romans, angles, saxons, jutes, danes, normans, vikings where is someone who can point to being pure indigenous english

A day that has shaken world stock markets and reset the world economic scene. Britain will leave the EU, and the possibility is that the EU will not survive. A victory for conservative forces and a smack up the head with a wet fish for socialism. Germany can now decide what it will do with all its new migrants

They were going to do that anyway regardless, and in truth that (Immigration fears) and the sluggish European economy is what fuels this secession and over the next two years the trade deals will be renegotiated as well as WHO implements the new rules and deals for Britain since the present British PM is out in the next few months and Trumps birther brother, the mayor of London is the one who likely succeeds him.

This drama is just getting started and for sure the angry nuts will crawl out of the woodwork and reek even more economic chaos than before.

This is the rise of nationalism again, we have seen it in the UK, we have seen it in the US, and we will see much more of it. Free trade is an illusion, there are costs of multinationalism and we have seen it in the dismantling of industries. The relentless drive for efficiencies have left out the human component. What price a Texit, Tal?

A lot of this is a direct result of the leftists welcoming these illegals who have no concept of a democracy and don't have western values buying votes with free stuff the working taxpayer's are forced to pay for to skew future elections, I've been seeing this same thing happen in Italy, where the only people welcoming them are the socialists and the communists, and they are doing it for that reason the same way Democrats in the USA are turning a blind eye, or worse defending and helping the illegals here.

Everyone else is fed up and disgusted, and this is the first battle in the war to take back control of our own countries from those who will destroy the fabric of our communities, and those who refuse to assimilate to their host country. And worse, continue their jihad in the name of their religion in the countries they moved to.

Our ancestors assimilated, it's in our right to expect the same from those who come here.

Rant over... just wanted to point out there are a LOT of people disgusted about the lack of action by both parties to kick out everyone who broke our laws and came here illegally.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

This is the rise of nationalism again,

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Hello clete:

It's true.. But, nationalism comes in 3 flavors. Which one are you?

a) A nationalist who LOVES his country, wants the best for it, and thinks everybody should want the best for their country too,

b) A nationalist who LOVES his country, wants the best for it, but at another country's expense,

c) A nationalist who LOVES his country and wants the best for it because he's a superior race..


excon

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Originally Posted by talaniman

the mayor of London is the one who likely succeeds him..

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No, not the new Mayor. It will probably be Boris Johnson.

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Originally Posted by tickle

No, not the new Mayor. It will probably be Boris Johnson.

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In fact it was a shame you mentioned Sadiq Khan and Trump in the same breath ! Sadiq Khan is a very well educated, sophisticated muslim and not comparable with Trump at all.

We all have to stay tuned to this multifaceted referendum because now, as I hear, Scotland wants to stay in the EU. It is their pregrogative of course, and I am sure they will do anything they can to make this interesting. Any takers... maybe para can give us his opinion of the gaelic opinion.

This guy... you know Trumps brother!

Boris Johnson: U.K.'s next prime minister?

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Originally Posted by tickle

We all have to stay tuned to this multifaceted referendum because now, as I hear, Scotland wants to stay in the EU. It is their pregrogative of course, and I am sure they will do anything they can to make this interesting. Any takers... maybe para can give us his opinion of the gaelic opinion.

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From the time I spent in Scotland I know it was a bitter disppointment for the scots to have lost the earlier referendum on soveriegnty but I think resurrgence now is pure opportunism. So the vote didn't go your way? What it demonstrates is that a very big majority of the other residents of GB were in favour of exit and that the minorities weren't. Maybe the Scots could take a leaf out of Trump's book and rebuild Hadrian's Wall. I haven't yet heard from relatives in Ireland as to what they think but the IRA must be giving thanks that Northern Ireland will want to join Eire at last and it shows you didn't need a gun after all. Any depressed and repressed area would want to stay in the EU

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello clete:

It's true.. But, nationalism comes in 3 flavors. Which one are you?

a) A nationalist who LOVES his country, wants the best for it, and thinks everybody should want the best for their country too,

b) A nationalist who LOVES his country, wants the best for it, but at another country's expense,

c) A nationalist who LOVES his country and wants the best for it because he's a superior race..


excon

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Surely you know me well enough Ex to know the answer is (a)

I was in favour of brexit even though there is an economic cost, Britain is entitled to chart their own course, I don't think they ever signed up to be part of a United States of Europe but that is the path the EU was on

The truth of the matter Clete is that the older generations blame immigrants on their misfortunes instead of the austerity policies of conservative lawmakers as a reaction to the global meltdown, and that applies specifically to Britain AND the EU, and the US, for that matter and most other places for sure.

Seems bigots will buy any excuse other than blame their elected leaders. You're right though the UK can plot there own course without the benefit of no tariffs on their exports.

"The immigrants are coming! The immigrants are coming" is the call of the bigots. Good thing they have a moat already, so they don't have to build a wall.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

The truth of the matter Clete is that the older generations blame immigrants on their misfortunes instead of the austerity policies of conservative lawmakers as a reaction to the global meltdown, and that applies specifically to Britain AND the EU, and the US, for that matter and most other places for sure.

Seems bigots will buy any excuse other than blame their elected leaders. You're right though the UK can plot there own course without the benefit of no tariffs on their exports.

"The immigrants are coming! The immigrants are coming" is the call of the bigots. Good thing they have a moat already, so they don't have to build a wall.

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I think the reality is,Tal, the immigrants had already come, Britain is awash with them with the prospect of more, success has its own rewards as I'm sure you know. The Britions did what everyone else was thinking, we want our country back! Have you noticed where the Britons want to spend the money they save, on Hospitals. Don't think that people here don't have the same thoughts
. I have come to the conclusion one muslim is a muslim too many. It is time to build that wall if you don't already have one but we are building it in the wrong place, it should be built along the shores of the mediterranian

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I think the reality is,Tal, the immigrants had already come,

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It's not a voluntary human migration at all, but a product of the Syrian WAR! Like most instances of human conflicts.

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Britain is awash with them with the prospect of more,

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No they aren't but of course you inflate the number GROSSLY to justify your worst fears and maybe that's understandable given your own countries approach to the problem of boat people, or the indigenous "lazy" (your word from previous posts) you took from them when you were the IMMIGRANT from another land.

You are one to talk aren't you? Unless of course you are an INDIGENOUS Australian.

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success has its own rewards as I'm sure you know.

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LOL, of course I know that and to date no society on Earth has solved the fall outs of WAR, or the poverty, and suffering that that always follows.

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The Britions did what everyone else was thinking, we want our country back!

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BS, facts show that the "LEAVERS" narrowly won the referendum, and their was just slightly less voters for the REMAINERS, so again you conflate the FACTS.

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Have you noticed where the Britons want to spend the money they save, on Hospitals. Don't think that people here don't have the same thoughts

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Health care systems are in shambles in Briton because of the austerity cuts to funding and benefits, and fact is this is a global situation (Except for the wealthy... country doesn't matter! ). The savings from leaving the EU is at best dubious given the financial repercussions which have not even been realized yet... but they will!

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. I have come to the conclusion one muslim is a muslim too many. It is time to build that wall if you don't already have one but we are building it in the wrong place, it should be built along the shores of the mediterranian

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Stay tuned as more FACTS will be revealed later and I have little doubt your arguments and attitude will be shown to be in ERROR due to short sighted, and non objective assessment of the FACTS of the matter.

Prejudicial and biased are the words I ascribe to your opinion. See I can be NICE! :D

Going to a next door country FROM a country actually at war would be considered reffugee, picking an affluent country halfway across the world to move to illegally turns them into economic opportunists. And takes away any moral high ground they might have actually had.

Many of these people aren't even Syrian to begin with, which disqualifies them from using the term refugee.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Going to a next door country FROM a country actually at war would be considered reffugee, picking an affluent country halfway across the world to move to illegally turns them into economic opportunists. And takes away any moral high ground they might have actually had.

Many of these people aren't even Syrian to begin with, which disqualifies them from using the term refugee.

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Thank God the U.S. welcomed my poor German ancestors as immigrants during the European wars in the mid-1800s!

This is now a conclusive question. It will take years before it can be resolved. Brits have left the EU so we wait and see about Scotland and they are wanting to stay in the EU.

THIS is no longer a political issue.




R

Britain has not left the EU, the British people have expressed an opinion and it is now up to politicians to decide if they are brave enough to implement it or not. What is surely needed is an election. It is a difficult position to be in. uncharted waters. The result is disputed by those who didn't vote, this is why we have compulsory voting, it ensures a true representative result. The Europeans want a rush to exit because they fear the instability of a drawn out process but Britons should fear the fall out in political instability.

The scots are a tiny part of the equation, 6 million people and moves on their part will only contribute to instability

The whole leave campaign was run from a xenophobic stand point, immigration was the main angle.
It is clear that the British people have little understanding of this hot topic.
They fail to understand that being in or out of the EU has little effect on net migration.
Part of the EU treaty was the freedom for members to move within member states for work etc.

The "immigration problem" is actually non-EU citizen, especially Middle Eastern decent, mainly Syria.
Therein lies the crux of the matter that people will only slowly start to realise...

It is interesting to see the movements happening in other EU states on a similar bandwagon.
The NF of Le Penn in France are calling for their own referendum..

This could very well be the beginning of the end of the EU as we know it...

I read a quip that sums up my feelings on Brexit pretty well: someone said "I hope Britain can survive without Greece."

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

The "immigration problem" is actually non-EU citizen, especially Middle Eastern decent, mainly Syria.
Therein lies the crux of the matter that people will only slowly start to realise...



This could very well be the beginning of the end of the EU as we know it...

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I refute that is is about Syrian refugees, they are a small part of the equation, Britain has many residents who are not of british descent, people from the subcontintent, about 4 million, people from eastern europe, more than a million, people of african descent. The point is there are more than 10 % non britons in Britain and as some Britons have said they are swamping services like hospitals and doctors, taking jobs and changing the nature of Britain. The people of the UK are entitled to their own country and entitled to say enough. You may think this is xenophopic but it is not. I know how they feel. If you go to a hospital outpatients in my country in western Sydney you will see the services swamped by "middle eastern" people. These are not the people the services were created to serve, meaning the services must be vastly expanded. No one in this state made the decision to accept these people. We are yet to see the impact of Syrian refugees and it is the same for the people of the UK. I hear British people want to migrate here, they are very acceptable, no one has to educate them in our values, our language, our laws, our politicial or religious beliefs

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You may think this is xenophopic

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How about outlandishly bigoted?

I,will say the true bigotry and xenphobia is the anti anyone not Muslim or middle eastern in the middle east that's the root of most of the middle east side problems.

It's also not bigoted or xenophobic for the people of any nation to determine who they will allow into THEIR, and this is THEIR country.

Every country has a right to control it's borders and determine who will and will not be allowed in.

And it's not bigoted to be wary or unwilling to want the one ethic / religious groups historically responsible for over 99% of terrorism on the grounds of keeping the population safe. Because it's based on sound, proven and reasonable facts.

Would you refuse to allow a member of a MS 13 in your house to babysit your children?

Probably not, and for the very same reasons?

As far as how this applies to the UK, why should Belgium and Germany decide how many illegals they MOST accept and pay for. Maybe the UK should give up its own currency as well, and let monetary policy be determined by someone else as well, why go halfway.

I know many Italians want out,28 years of knowing true Italians I understand their issues with being pushed around yet again by the Germans, etc over stuff the Germans etc aren't willing to pay for.

Being bullied into buying and paying for stuff they don't want, and can't afford to pay for..

The UK isn't really fully integrated in the EU now, otherwise the would have the EURO, and wouldn't be booking at the trash that's been trying to cross from France everyone else is being forced to take.

After all, what a few million more people on the dole committing crimes, they have more rights than the Britons have.

Personally I have no gripes with the UK, even though I have no English blood in my family tree, I do have Irish and Scottish as well as German. Odd I am supporting the Bits who want self determination, against the Current German bullying in the EU.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I refute that is is about Syrian refugees, they are a small part of the equation,

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I'm surprised at you clete, why focus on one small element of what I said, especially as that's only a minor part of the overall issue.
I think you've missed my point completely, but never mind..

Refugees are one thing, but this is about the entire issue.

Curly you said the issue is non EU citizen and yes to an extent it is, very much so, but it is also the more than a million EU citizens resident in the UK. The UK has woken up to a nightmare, for years they have tried to moderate the flow of immigrants with constant issues at their border with France but EU rules impose a burden on them and with an influx of refugees into Germany, where are those refugees going to go once they have the recognition, some will head for the UK because not all those refugees are syrian. There is a point in the life of a country when you need to focus on your own problems. We, none of us, are here to solve the problems of the middle east or Africa or eastern europe or asia and the UK has said very clearly "enough"

Yes there is more than migration in this, there is regulation and non representative government

I think on both sides of the Atlantic the revolt is against the bureaucratic state. Legislators have been replaced by executive administrators and the people have lost their representation. This is a good revolt . However ,In this country the sorry excuse for rebellion says that we should hire a competent executive to manage the elephantine nanny state . Pathetic !

I don't think the powers in Brussels or London will allow the will of the people to be executed .

Tom I don't think they will usurp the democratic process. England is where the greatest support for brexit is, therefore a lot of politicians loose their seats if they ignore the result. This represents a massive vote of no confidence in the conservatives, in government generally, therefore Cameron shouldn't wait, he should call an election or at very least throw the leadership up for a vote. I understand they are afraid of UKIP but the longer they wait the worse the result will be. They have had a referundum, if Cameron won't implement it, he should resign, not wait for the party convention. He made a brave decision, now he has to make another

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Tom I don't think they will usurp the democratic process.

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The EU usurps the democratic process. Brexit is Magna Carta 2.0 ....... freedom from unelected and unaccountable socialist bureaucrats, and a court that is increasingly making legal decisions that replace British law .

Stupid British government went along with the stupid EU governing body. Much like governments across the globe and especially here in the US where our own government serves the rich elites interest, and ignores the common citizen.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Stupid British government went along with the stupid EU governing body. Much like governments across the globe and especially here in the US where our own government serves the rich elites interest, and ignores the common citizen.

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Yes even at least one of your presidents has endorsed the New World Order and Obama is working to bring it about

. When Britain joined the EU I expect that what they expected was something akin to a free trade agreement, it is doubtful they expected to be come just another state ruled by a federal government in Brussles. They have resisted handing over soveriegnty and this one more rebutal. I'm amazed the scots want to bow down to european domination nad are trying to drag Britain with them