Once again we are being treated to the "yes you will, no we won't" negotiations over the bankrupt state of Greece and its creditors. I may be a skeptic but wasn't the previous package of measures supposed to fix the problem and yet here we are again seeing the same or additional conditions of the same type being imposed because Greece cannot meet its repayment deadlines. I would like to know, who miscalculated, or who didn't hold up their part of the bargain? If Greece were a company or a household it would have to loose some of its assets. Their debt is something like 170% of their annual income so no surprise they cannot meet their repayments, it's a wonder they can even meet the interest bill. The issue is someone has to pay and all those rich greeks on their greek islands have to pay for their place in the sun. So perhaps the german and EU banks could impose a site rental on those islands to get their money back. At the very least they should stop the flight of capital out of the country and what's this nonsense about no VAT on electricity, I have to pay a tax on electricity

EU will not let them fail. Impose restrictions that are too harsh and they default, which another bailout is basically defaulting. Turkey is probably next. People need jobs to get paid and spend money. Bailouts are bad. Just like in the USA, bailing out the big automakers prevented reform. Restructuring through bankruptcy is not a bad thing. It's also like the USA with the postal service, which loses what, 8 billion dollars each quarter? Just because something was a good idea 200 years ago doesn't make it a good idea now.

Yes socialism was a good idea a hundred years ago and it isn't a good idea now or at least the greek version which appears to be everyone is on the government payroll being paid money borrowed from other countries and the greeks expect that these countries will just accept cents on the dollar. In ancient times they had a remedy for this sort of thing, invade and take the population into slavery. But we are too enlightened to do such things today.

They want restructed loans, how about a no interest loan, now they could afford that, but it seems they can't afford the other terms which involve a lifestyle change. The answer is to set up tarriff barriers so expensive goods cannot be imported, all those lovely toys the EU makes. If they won't pay income tax, abolish income tax and use a VAT

Oliver ;right on ! Also not a great idea is 'too big to fail' . Here in the US we have codified it with Dodd Frank. The EU believes that Greece is too big to fail. Cut em loose and let them float the Drachma . It would be a devalued currency .But in the long run it would be better off if they weren't tied to the Euro.

Yes Tom but what to do about all those loans they are going to default on. In banking you either get your principle back or you get your interest or you get the collateral. There is no collateral. If you cut them loose you are just saying off you got don't do it again. Look at Argentina it has been down this road a couple of times, still a basket case economy and yet there is a powerhouse economy right next door. No, the EU needs to take equity, their power industry, their ports. It isn't they are too big to fail, it is that the ripple effect will destabilise the Euro which has already seen major adjustments in value, at a time when they may be facing a threat from Russia.

I think the whole situation has become just too hard and the only way out is extend the loans and not give Greece any more money.

Greece has conditioned the EU response. Their politicians either won't or are incapable of making good decisions. The result is Greece fails, EU bails them out. If you allow Greece to collapse you will probably be facing at least two major events. Cyprus will probably collapse because those economies are tied closely together. Second we would probably see mass exodus and a flooding into other countries by the Greeks. And you could probably add chaos as a third.

Innovation and innovative thinkers are needed while their corrupt Government needs a spanking. How about huge incentives for European businesses to relocate their manufacturing to Greece. Putting people back to work is one step. But you have to get rid of corruption.

Do you actually think there is a work ethic in Greece, if there were EU companies would already be taking advantage of lower costs. It is not only corruption, there is a problem of taxation collection and unsustainable pensions and public service. This is what happens when you have a nanny economy. I don't think the rest of EU should cop it, if greeks want to migrate for work they have that option in EU, why do the companies have to go to them. No let Greece fail, Cyprus is already a basket case, and leave the EU.

What is going on there 26% unemployment and Europe on their doorstep

I don't know that much about the Greeks or their culture. It seems both need a reboot. Economic sustainability is far from rocket science. It's when you introduce political influences and people it all falls apart. Give me the US economy. I'd lose the postal service obviously and privatize mail. I'd lose the IRS and go to the flat or fair tax. With environmental concerns I'd drill for oil. To have our economy tied to outside political groups is just really stupid. Last and not least I'd send Dennis Hastert to ISIS because I'm so disappointed in him (should the allegations be true).

Big difference between a few million people in a place without much resources and the US. What works in one place doesn't work in another. You can get away with deficit budgetting and obviously they can't but they are a caution for what could happen to you. You have an efficient IRS they don't. Don't look for radical solutions. As far a mail is concerned, it is a dying service everywhere and you just have to increase the cost and allow the market to determine whether it wants the service. And drill baby drill, be energy sufficient and go on beggering your neighbour

Based on recent history, events, and some political corruption, there are probably those who would argue the efficiency of the IRS.

I wasn't trying to compare the US economy with theirs. The economic stimulus has to fit the country. Having said that it's still not rocket science. But some political leaders have their own interests in mind and progress can't be made.

Indeed the current greek government was elected on a platform of abandoning these agreements and obviously they want to show progress on winding back austerity, however they are not realistic, there has to be a lot of pain and unfortunately in Greece, as in other places, the rich are not going to step up, so it is others who face the pain. I lived in a long time in a regime where salaries could not increase, not quite the same, but adjustments have to be made. You have options, leave or accept the change. THE GREEKS ARE IN THE SAME POSITION but they fail to realise that you cannot negotiate from a position of destitution

It is only a question of when, not if, the Europeans pull the plug on Greece . Further ,at this point at least there is no advantage to being a strategic partner with Greece. That could change if Turkey ,in it's quest to recreate the Ottoman Empire turns their gaze to the Aegean .

Quote:

---

I'd lose the postal service obviously and privatize mail. I'd lose the IRS and go to the flat or fair tax. With environmental concerns I'd drill for oil. To have our economy tied to outside political groups is just really stupid. Last and not least I'd send Dennis Hastert to ISIS because I'm so disappointed in him (should the allegations be true).

---

Again right on .

About Hastert ...... the allegations against him are disgusting .However ,I do have a problem with the charges being levied against him. It really should not be criminal behavior to withdraw money from the bank .

Quote:

---

It really should not be criminal behavior to withdraw money from the bank .

---

It's not. He was reported to the FBI by the banks. And an adult sexually approaching a minor is more than disgusting, it's criminal! Because he wasn't caught when he was doing it, and before the statute of limitations ran out is disgusting. That he rose to prominence, and got rich after the deed was done is disgusting.

Let the Europeans and the Middle East clean up it's own disgusting mess!

Quote:

---

It's not. He was reported to the FBI by the banks.

---

again ;why is his taking money out of the bank cause for him to be reported to the FBI ? It's a very stupid requirement .

Here is more info: Yahoo!

He wasn't indicted just for taking money out of the bank. He's charged with "evading bank regulations by withdrawing $952,000 in increments of less than $10,000 to skirt reporting requirements. " Those requirements apply to all US citizens.

Off topic and I took us there - I had a lot of respect for Hastert as Speaker. I do remember thinking he was very quiet on the Mark Foley travesty. And now we know why. Very disappointed Mr. Hatert!

The Europeans don't need Greece, Turkey, and Cyprus to fail. It brings anarchy to the region and invites groups like ISIS to assume they can have a safe haven there.

Maybe the Europeans can treat their poor states the way we do... send 'em welfare checks. No interest. No pay back! What, you didn't know we had poor states in the US?

The 10 Poorest States In America - Business Insider

To all intents and purposes Cyprus gave us an indication of what would happen if Greece leaves the EU, but money is already fleeing Greece so there is no investment which might bring the country back. Turkey is not part of EU so if it fails its impacts are local and it wouldn't help Daesh because they have probably been helping them if for no other reason than facilitating the flow of foreign fighters. Daesh is not a threat to Turkey which has a large military and the will to use it.

The EU has to bail Greece out so that instability doesn't spread throughout the Balkans but it won't be on reduced terms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

Maybe the Europeans can treat their poor states the way we do... send 'em welfare checks. No interest. No pay back! What, you didn't know we had poor states in the US?

The 10 Poorest States In America - Business Insider

---

That is what they have been doing Tal or as good as. Greece needs new deal program. Maybe the US should adopt Greece sort of take it off the hands of the EU in exchange for a base after all it worked for Diego Garcia.

I took a look at your poor states report Tal and I find it interesting that for the most part those who top the poverty list are the states who lost the civil war 150 years ago. I have no doubt there are other factors, such as the size of former slave populations and the vagarities of climate but this is the outcome of change in the social order and a proof that the rich keep their money and keep their job creation close to home.

You have now discovered it was cheaper to keep those slaves growing cotton than it is to have them unemployed. Let's move to your other war of liberation, Iraq, strangely unnerving that we see a scenario unfolding which will lead to generational poverty in that place also. In this case the shiia have been freed and there is an ongoing civil war. Could it be that the price of democracy is a disadvantage for a large percentage of the population

I come from the great state that Mark Foley represented. How's Florida doing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oliver2011

I come from the great state that Mark Foley represented. How's Florida doing?

---

I don't know what it takes to get in Tal's report but on these statistics, not much better

Spotlight on Poverty and Opportunity

I guess you could say things are tough all over

When we stick to old rituals and policies it's no wonder. Bailing out newspapers? What? Print media had it's day. I used to love the Sunday paper, but it's not needed now. And seriously why is mail delivered 6 days a week? I couldn't tell you how much a stamp is because I don't use them. And one last point - I love hearing politicians talking about not building more refineries and drilling because it would take 10 years to get a return. Well had we done it 30 years ago we'd be 20 years ahead.

I want a forward thinker to lead, not just in the White House but in Congress as well. Scale back Government, let the people choose how to spend their money, and everything else falls in place.

*stepping off the soap box now...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oliver2011

When we stick to old rituals and policies it's no wonder. Bailing out newspapers? What? Print media had it's day. I used to love the Sunday paper, but it's not needed now. And seriously why is mail delivered 6 days a week? I couldn't tell you how much a stamp is because I don't use them. And one last point - I love hearing politicians talking about not building more refineries and drilling because it would take 10 years to get a return. Well had we done it 30 years ago we'd be 20 years ahead. I want a forward thinker to lead, not just in the White House but in Congress as well. Scale back Government, let the people choose how to spend their money, and everything else falls in place. *stepping off the soap box now...

---

Oliver you won't get forward thinkers in government. Politics is about retaining the status quo, keeping the good times rolling for those who bank roll the politicians. You can't let people choose how to spend their money, who would invest in a new road, a new aircraft carrier? No they would spend it on a swimming pool. I don't know why a business must get a return in ten years from an asset that lasts fifty, that is the kind of thinking that gets us what we have got today, lots of rich people who don't want to invest. The people who get a bailout are those who have politicians in their pocket. Industries do fail and disappear, not many saddliers about these days and farriers are no longer in vogue but these things may come again if there is no fuel for the automobile so extraction is important at least for the next hundred years. What you have to do is ease the industries into reconstruction, newspapers give way to electronics, extractive industries to nuclear power. But we need to stop dreaming because that revolutionary technology is probably not available tomorrow. Change is incremental, the car after 100 years still has four wheels and an engine powered by oil, the plane still has two wings and engine powered by oil. They are bigger, they are better and more reliable but the concept hasn't changed. The same goes for just about any everyday object. We have thousands of graduates from universities and not a fresh idea among them, the real innovators didn't wait to finish their course.

Should people who don't pay taxes (file) get a right to the decisions made in this country/right to vote? Give more than 50% free money, cell phones, etc, and the country is done. We almost fell over that cliff in the last 7 soon to be 8 years. With the flat or fair tax the Federal Government gets their monies and others do as well because everyone is paying taxes assuming you buy something and everyone gets a vote. Plus you lose the political organization that targets people, the IRS. Unfortunately those that run for office run for their legacy and not the country.

So you would like to return to the days of laise faire capitalism when only the rich had any say in the running of the country, these were days of destitution for the poor. Welfare keeps the economy going because these people spend every penny they get, unlike the rich who hoard their wealth. Without it you would have anarchy and revolution and yes such people should have a say in the running of the country after all it was built on their backs. Your view is born out of a nation that finds poverty objectional as if it is a disease, rather than a social ill created by capitalism.Every person should have employment and someone has to have the responsibility for creating it and that comes from responsible representative government not some upper class utopia. I have heard this flat rate tax argument and it always comes from the rich, those who have plenty of income and want to keep it. How flat should the rate be before it becomes a burden to be avoided. 10%? 20%? 30%? 40%. The principle of taxation in itself is a problem. When I was young the rate of tax an ordinary person might pay was 10% and the top rate was 97% imposed on the very wealthy of whom there were few. Today that same person might pay 30-40% and there are many rich who pay less than 50% but no one with a low income pays tax. Has employment increased? Have the number of poor deceased? I would abolish income tax for a consumption tax of 25% and no exemptions, so companies pay it as well as individuals, however the poor would need to be compensated for the extra cost by an increase in welfare payments otherwise it is unfair. What this does is put the tax burden where it belongs on those who have the greatest spending power and those who at the moment are able to avoid tax. I expect your flat rate tax argument just fell flat

Quote:

---

Welfare keeps the economy going because these people spend every penny they get, unlike the rich who hoard their wealth.

---

huh ? Around here the rich spend prolifically .They also contribute $millions on philanthropy ,advancing culture ,medical reasearch etc. Every time a JF Kerry purchases a big a$$ yacht it makes jobs . My boss is rich . He likes to make money ....lots of money . He also hires over 600 people just on the business that employees me .... and I can only guess the total number of people he employs. You are smarter than that class envy b.s.
Again ,Oliver is right on. A flat tax or a tiered flat tax is the way to go. This progressive tax system favors rent seekers . Yes the poor get their crumbs from it ;but the real beneficiary are the ones who can hire the best tax accountants.
I say make the rates as flat and low as possible ;and fire most of the IRS employees .

Quote:

---

When I was young the rate of tax an ordinary person might pay was 10% and the top rate was 97% imposed on the very wealthy of whom there were few

---

so of course you use taxation for social engineering instead of paying for the business of the government . Figures . You are not telling us the facts if you think the top tiered people really paid taxes at 97% or anywhere's near that . They'd all 'go Galt ' on you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

A flat tax or a tiered flat tax is the way to go..
I say make the rates as flat and low as possible ;and fire most of the IRS employees .

---

What do you think a tiered flat tax is other than a progressive tax system

Quote:

---

so of course you use taxation for social engineering instead of paying for the business of the government . Figures . You are not telling us the facts if you think the top tiered people really paid taxes at 97% or anywhere's near that . They'd all 'go Galt ' on you.

---

Back in the day it was a conservative government who thought that way, it took a socialist government to reform the system, the result being of course that the workers paid more and the rich paid less and of course still do.

Right now we have a tax system which is inadequate to meet the needs of the country thanks to that social engineering, any of this sound familiar?

There is more than one side of the equation and someone has to pay for the aircraft carriers, the production of which enrich you know who. I don't know about you but I don't need any more aircraft carriers. We have industry that has migrated to asia thanks to low tarrifs and FTA's, our social engineering only benefited the chinese and so did yours, courtesy of our patriot capitalists

You keep raving about flat tax as if it were an economic panacea but the answer is actually to collect some tax. What is the latest statistic on how many in your nation actually pay tax? You need a tax system that actually is based in truth and not fiction because the one you have is fiction because of social engineering. Start by eliminating all deductions and allowances and then you can talk about reforming the rates and impact on various groups

An economy built on servicing rich guys and leaving crumbs where they please doesn't sound like an economic model for the WHOLE population, and yes we see rich guys spending prolifically buying politicians and lawmakers to service them also.

Nor does restricting voters to just those who qualify based on how much they pay in taxes, or if they can afford an excellent accountant. I get kissing the boss's butt though, natural if he gives you a paycheck as well as a few crumbs, but get real, if he can make a buck laying you off he sure the hell will, and then whose butt will you look to apply your lips too?

Yeah give the rich guys more money and see who pays for the bridges, roads, and schools, where YOU live.

Tal I have no illusions about my relationship . He can increase my pay ,reduce it ,lay me off . It's all his call. I on the other hand can quit and work for someone else .When I was on the assembly line ,or cleaning dishes ,or any of the other more upleasant jobs I've done I always understood the relationship. Nothing forces bosses to hire me ;and nothing forces me to remain if I don't like the terms .
What I have seen is the work the bosses do to succeed ;and that is something I would not be willing to do. That is why I don't own a business.My boss also raises a fortune every year sponsoring charitable events . He puts in the time and he fronts the money . My boss did not start out being able to purchase a big a$$ yacht . He worked his tail off to get to that point . I've also worked for bosses who put in the work and ended up losing their shirts . That's the risk I was not willing to take . So excuse me if I think they deserve what they get . I don't think he or anyone else should be paying anywheres near 50% of their income in taxes let alone 97% .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

What do you think a tiered flat tax is other than a progressive tax system


Back in the day it was a conservative government who thought that way, it took a socialist government to reform the system, the result being of course that the workers paid more and the rich paid less and of course still do.

Right now we have a tax system which is inadequate to meet the needs of the country thanks to that social engineering, any of this sound familiar?

There is more than one side of the equation and someone has to pay for the aircraft carriers, the production of which enrich you know who. I don't know about you but I don't need any more aircraft carriers. We have industry that has migrated to asia thanks to low tarrifs and FTA's, our social engineering only benefited the chinese and so did yours, courtesy of our patriot capitalists

You keep raving about flat tax as if it were an economic panacea but the answer is actually to collect some tax. What is the latest statistic on how many in your nation actually pay tax? You need a tax system that actually is based in truth and not fiction because the one you have is fiction because of social engineering. Start by eliminating all deductions and allowances and then you can talk about reforming the rates and impact on various groups

---

Like I said ;the progessive tax system with the myriad of exclusions ,deductions ,exemptions is tailor maid for rent seekers of all income levels .

Again you avoid the point, you cannot get rid of what you have short of revolution, too many vested interests. There are some things we know do not work and tax above a certain level is one of them even if Sweden gives the lie to that. The progressive tax system works if it is not fiddled with to allow avoidance or to advantage a particular group. First principle; the poor, low paid and those receiving government payments don't pay tax. It is a waste of time having them file returns. Second principle; Truth in assessment. No loop holes. Third principle; Enforcement. Fourth principle; Fair rates with a ceiling that doesn't create disincentive. Fifth principle; collect tax at the point of income or expenditure

How many of these principles does your system ignore?

"the proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state."(Marx and Engels ); a“heavy graduated income tax” is a salient feature of the Communist Manifesto .

WOW, 30/40% as a top rate with loopholes up the ying yang for rich guys is hardly a heavy graduated income tax.

I mean dang Tom, a rich guys can pay less than 10% income taxes and get to hide dough all over the world! Thats AFTER 10 years of Bush's tax cuts through a recession!

That doesn't sound like communism at all, JUST SAYIN'!

No roads, bridges, or schools, jobs, or living wages, but plenty of off shore and Swiss bank accounts (lets not forget the yachts and private jets). there ain't no pie left after a rich guy comes to dinner, so forget the crumbs, they ate that too!

Or are you hiding the truth?

"The rich will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the masses, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state that he bought; a“ free market capitalism” is a salient feature of the Rich Guy Manifesto .

It is interesting that Tom should be familiar with the communist maifesto, I suspect he is a scholar of Mien Kempf too! The only manifesto I follow is the common sense manifesto. We all live in the country and we all have a responsibility to pay for the amenities that are provided for our benefit. If we live in a representative democracy and most of us do, but Tom doesn't, we accept that we have put in place a government to make decisions which include taxes and expenditure and our part of the compact is to pay taxes according to our means. Tom would have those with no means pay a disproportionally heavy levy on the basis that this is fair to him. This is the me first manifesto

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

WOW, 30/40% as a top rate with loopholes up the ying yang for rich guys is hardly a heavy graduated income tax.

I mean dang Tom, a rich guys can pay less than 10% income taxes and get to hide dough all over the world! Thats AFTER 10 years of Bush's tax cuts through a recession!

That doesn't sound like communism at all, JUST SAYIN'!

No roads, bridges, or schools, jobs, or living wages, but plenty of off shore and Swiss bank accounts (lets not forget the yachts and private jets). there ain't no pie left after a rich guy comes to dinner, so forget the crumbs, they ate that too!

---

under my tax system there would be no loop holes ...so with all due respect ;mine is the "fairer" means of taxing .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

It is interesting that Tom should be familiar with the communist maifesto, I suspect he is a scholar of Mien Kempf too! The only manifesto I follow is the common sense manifesto. We all live in the country and we all have a responsibility to pay for the amenities that are provided for our benefit. If we live in a representative democracy and most of us do, but Tom doesn't, we accept that we have put in place a government to make decisions which include taxes and expenditure and our part of the compact is to pay taxes according to our means. Tom would have those with no means pay a disproportionally heavy levy on the basis that this is fair to him. This is the me first manifesto

---

Yes I am familiar with all the doctrine of those I oppose including your gradual Fabian destruction of liberty in favor of the decrees nanny state .

Quote:

---

Fabian destruction of liberty in favor of the decrees nanny state .

---

It almost sounds intelligent but means absolutely nothing.

whereas I'm sure your comment is meaningless and irrelevant .

I am not a Fabianist Tom in fact I vote for the conservative side of politics but that is not the rabid right wing approach you espouse. You cannot have the tax burden fall on those least able to pay it. Tax cannot be imposed in isolation to other factors and creating a situation where government gives with one hand and takes with the other doesn't work because many things lag behind cost increases. The answer is strong economic activity with as many in work as possible. You cannot incentivise those job creators of yours through the taxation system as has been done and giving them a low flat rate tax won't incentiveise them either because their decision making isn't based on tax. Look at your basket case economy. You have zero interest rates, a strong currency and buckets of money and they still won't invest in your country. Perhaps if you tried a two tiered tax system where you taxed the non citizen higher that excess capacity would leave your economy and the system would work

Quote:

---

You cannot incentivise those job creators of yours through the taxation system as has been done and giving them a low flat rate tax won't incentiveise them either because their decision making isn't based on tax. Look at your basket case economy. You have zero interest rates, a strong currency and buckets of money and they still won't invest in your country.

---

The other factor is burdensome regulation. I'm not in favor of giving anyone favors . With my system there would be no reason to .

I go back to what I said. Just because it was a good idea 200 years ago, doesn't make it a good idea today. Grow and innovate. Term limits on politicians. Up the pay to attract business minds. Unfortunately the United States goes backwards more than forward. The welfare system doesn't work. I'm not saying do away with social programs, but let's change it. Someone much smarter than me has to come up with a plan.