(A disclaimer - my politics are left of center).

Attorney General Eric Holder painstakingly reviewed the facts in the Michael Brown shooting and correctly decided that police officer Wilson should not be charged. A major factor in the decision was, sadly, that many witnesses consistently lied.

The second part of the report deals with how the Ferguson police department deals with African-Americans. Here, unlike the first part, Holder's team ignored the facts and relied on false assumption after false assumption. One wonders whether basic logic was included in their Ivy League degrees.

I'll provide one example and then leave the link where this can be read more thoroughly.

Since the Black population of Ferguson is 67%, and traffic stops of Blacks are 85%, this is a de facto case of racism. This example is quoted in the report.

The same logic would tell us the NBA is racist since Blacks comprise a far greater percentage of players than the Black population would indicate. In both cases, the wrong factor(s) is used to interpret a statistic and results in a false conclusion. I believe it's called the population fallacy.

The link: http://news.investors.com/ibd-editor...ogus-stats.htm

Whatever one's political persuasion, we deserve well-thought reasoning in issues as important as this one. Dissembling serves no one.

(Later edit --- If someone can get this over to Member Discussions > Current Events, I would appreciate it. I couldn't figure out how to get it there. Thanks.)

This same logical fallacy has been used to promote racism, or reverse racism if you accept Dr. Du Bois' theory that only whites can be racists, for 2/3 of a century. It's been satirized innumerable times: "Lies, da*n lies, and statistics," "Figures don't lie but Liars figure," etc.

One article used the same statistic to indict Hip Hop culture, saying more Blacks commit crimes. Same fallacy.

Another article claimed economics resulted in the statistic: "less affluent areas have a higher crime rate," blaming racism for Blacks being less affluent. Again, same fallacy but salted with circular reasoning, a different fallacy.

From everything I've read, Race may have been a factor in Ferguson P.D. hiring practices, but any other conclusions seem to stretch the facts.

This Racial crap really pizzes me off. Just look around and you will see Blacks tooling around in nice "Beamers" " Mercedes" dressing to kill and holding down a great percentage of the Federal, State, County and Local Government Jobs. These Blacks are hard working, law abiding tax paying members of the country. Where a great number of Blacks and Whites are happy to sit on their thumbs and complain it is Racism. Then there are the Race Hustlers like Sharpton, Jackson, Holder and Obama playing the Race Card every day. Thanks to these jackals race relations have been pushed back 20 years. These are my thought and I am sticking with them.

When black people give their opinions of race relations it's playing the race card? So racisms just doesn't exist?

Explain this then,

Sigma Alpha Epsilon: Frat Hazed African-American Pledge To Death, Has History Of Racial Incidents

You may be buzzed off, or even disagree, but you cannot DENY it still exists.

At the health-care rehab I was in a year ago, three black aides took a longer-than-allowed break and were scolded by their white RN supervisor. "She's a racist, " they told me. On another day, a couple of white aides took a longer-than-allowed break and were similarly scolded by a white RN supervisor and simply sputtered about how hard they work and felt a longer break was due them. I wonder what both the black aides and the white ones would have said had the supervisor been black. I should have asked them.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

When black people give their opinions of race relations it's playing the race card?

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Not black people, black con artists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDOe7oUjvHg

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So racisms just doesn't exist?

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Of course it does, but riddle me this: which has more impact - a frat house chapter (which was closed and the president expelled) or a separatist group intimidating voters?
Black Panther Boss Who Got Off For Voter Intimidation Arrested - Judicial Watch

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Originally Posted by talaniman

When black people give their opinions of race relations it's playing the race card? So racisms just doesn't exist?

Explain this then,

Sigma Alpha Epsilon: Frat Hazed African-American Pledge To Death, Has History Of Racial Incidents

You may be buzzed off, or even disagree, but you cannot DENY it still exists.

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How is this an example of the type of institutional racism that Ferguson PD is being accused of ?

You want an example of entremched racism just look at this post. Why are you discussing black and white people specifically, because you are racist.

So a report came out and you want different conclusions. One conclusion we can all approve, the hiring practices of the Ferguson PD might be racially biased. Question; how are you going to determine they are not? When the population of a minority is reflected in the hiring, ie; black people police black people, how racist can you get?

Many of the Ferguson cops, and the chief, came from a disbanded police force in the next county. They were disbanded for racial disparities and practices. One could conclude they brought their poison with them, or added more poison to an already poisoned situation. For sure they didn't act in a vacuum, as I have said before, the judge, the mayor and the prosecutor had to go along with the programs and policies, more likely, they started them. For sure they did the hiring so are responsible for the poison.

Having a more racially balanced police force that reflects the community isn't racists at all but white people policing black people could well be considered racism in practice, unfair at least considering the practices and exploitation that on its face was blatantly unfair.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

How is this an example of the type of institutional racism that Ferguson PD is being accused of ?

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Cops do it, judges do it, prosecutors do it, students do it, hey, white people enforcing their racism, on....wait for it, BLACK people.

Looks like a pattern to me. What would YOU call it? How many examples do you need, I got a million of 'em.

Bias exists in all communities, but it is sometimes a reaction to a bad situation. You say these police were racists from the get go, why did it take a death for the situation to be addressed?

It goes back to what you said before I think Clete, that the modern age of electronic communications has brought more attention to it, and informed more people of it, so the protest, outrage, and calls for something to be done falls on more ears and eyes and grows instead of being swept under a rug and forgotten. Before you know it people start connecting dots on what's been happening for a long time in many places.

It's hard for some to even accept that this has been happening and why, because it's a lot easier to NOT even see the ugly parts of what we thought was a great country.

tal you are saying that a bunch of drunk frat boys shouting racial slurs is an example of institutional white racism ? No ,the racism you are seeing there is personal racism . The university did the right thing by saying there is no place on campus for such activity . But if you are going to bring that up then I can spend hours giving examples where individual minorities display equal examples (or worse ) of racism. Oh yeah that's right .According to Michael Eric Dyson and tal ,it's impossible for a black to be racist .

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Originally Posted by talaniman

it's a lot easier to NOT even see the ugly parts of what we thought was a great country.

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It's also very easy to dwell on those ugly parts, as the current pendulum swing seems to be doing, to the point of dismissing the moments of greatness. Do the Tuskegee Airmen rate higher than the Flying Tigers in WWII? Was Langston Hughes a better poet than Robert Frost? Was the Little Big Horn more important than the Alamo?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

tal you are saying that a bunch of drunk frat boys shouting racial slurs is an example of institutional white racism ? No ,the racism you are seeing there is personal racism . The university did the right thing by saying there is no place on campus for such activity . But if you are going to bring that up then I can spend hours giving examples where individual minorities display equal examples (or worse ) of racism. Oh yeah that's right .According to Michael Eric Dyson and tal ,it's impossible for a black to be racist .

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The story doesn't end with a few drunk frat boys and I have posted a link to the other stories of the activities of this fraternity that go back years and several other campuses. You may have a point if this video represented an isolated incident as you elude, but that's simply NOT the case, nor is Ferguson an isolated incident.

I think Clete (Have we gotten on the same page?? ;O) said it best, its one group that can force their racism on another, and actually affect their lives adversely, and few minorities can do that. I question again if black people talking about the effects of racism on their lives can be considered racists.

So maybe its not impossible, but highly improbable that a minority can affect the lives of the majority adversely, but it's a huge mistake to broad brush the majority with such a label. Some chose to look away and not acknowledge what happens elsewhere, and others vilify the voices that point to the ugly truth.

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Originally Posted by Catsmine

It's also very easy to dwell on those ugly parts, as the current pendulum swing seems to be doing, to the point of dismissing the moments of greatness. Do the Tuskegee Airmen rate higher than the Flying Tigers in WWII? Was Langston Hughes a better poet than Robert Frost? Was the Little Big Horn more important than the Alamo?

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Is it dwelling or hand wringing? Most problems that go without solutions, or resolution, tend to pop up again, and again, often in a worse state than they started. Sometimes the band aids of the past are insufficient to heal old wounds, that the wounded can no longer ignore. Or it's an ongoing process to deal with old problems.

Yes at one point in time the moments of greatness of minorities were minimized for the more mainstream moments of the majority race, by the majority race. It took years and decades for that to change, and indeed still changing.

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I think Clete (Have we gotten on the same page?? ;O) said it best, its one group that can force their racism on another, and actually affect their lives adversely, and few minorities can do that. I question again if black people talking about the effects of racism on their lives can be considered racists.

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Tal it is possible that any one of us can be on the same page regarding certain issues. You may have taken this away from what I said but I didn't actually say this. Testimony of life experience is not racism and that works either way, but you have enforced racism when the law works to disadvantage one group consistently. If I say that a particular person of a particular group behaves in a certain manner that is not racism, but if I say all members of the group behave in this manner I had better have strong evidence otherwise it could be construed as racist. To say members of the Ferguson police force are racist is a racist statement, the evidence is they are a majority group dealing with a minority. It may be that the conduct of some members of that police force display attitudes that don't enhance their performance but it is difficult to deal with entrenched attitudes of a minority. When you overlay the weight of history you have an explosive mixture. Statements are made about a group that imply a majority of that group behave in a particular manner it doesn't mean every individual behaves in that manner but immediately a statement is made someone wants a qualification, thus it is better not to refer to race specifically except as a qualification.

In this case the citizens of Ferguson are angry about the actions of a member of their police force which resulted in the death of a suspect. they feel he was targetted by reason of race and not his actions. The evidence suggests otherwise
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You may think me racist because I don't like the behaviour of certain groups, etc and have said so, but racism is when action is taken against such groups which is designed to target them alone by reason of race. Powerlessness over a situation can give rise to racism, whether that is the actions of members of law enforcement or actions of a legislature or actions of members of a community. Affirmative action is racism, you can think of more examples.

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but you have enforced racism when the law works to disadvantage one group consistently.

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The findings of the DOJ.

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You may think me racist because I don't like the behaviour of certain groups, etc and have said so, but racism is when action is taken against such groups which is designed to target them alone by reason of race.

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Again the findings of the DOJ on the Ferguson power structure, not just the cops. Further examination revealed it to be a systematic statewide practice.

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Affirmative action is racism

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If there were no racist laws, practices, and policies, you wouldn't need affirmative action would we? Affirmative action makes it possible to include those who are excluded because of racism. It's cause and effects.

You aren't suggesting doing away with affirmative action before you do away with racist laws, policy, and practices are you?

That in itself is racist thinking.

You are racially biased Tal you see racism as a one way street. It's not but the impact of policies falls heavier on one group than another not because the policies are racist but because of other factors such as the number off offenders

The report says on Page 4: “Ferguson’s law-enforcement practices overwhelmingly impact African-Americans.

Duh, Ferguson is 67.4% African American, 29.3% White. Of course it impacts blacks more.

They have an election coming up, and it seems the citizens have a chance to rectify the white power structure that governs them. If they take it! They have not before, but that doesn't mean the white power structure should not govern fair and equal however.

And they have NOT.

You are talking about changing human nature, what group doesn't want to be on top and exercise their power which means that someone suffers. This isn't really about white and black it is about haves and have nots.

Equal protection and treatment under the law is a basic tenet of our constitution whether you have, or have not. You aren't justifying BAD human behavior are you?

Whether you like it or not Tal your Constitution enshrines racism. Slavery was not a subject they were prepared to deal with, those wonderful slave owning founders, so don't tell me about equal rights under your Constitution. If it were so the freedom marches would not have been necessary and that was then this is now just doesn't cut it either. You have a supreme court judge who believes in translating the Constitution according to what is written and the intent of those who wrote it. It did not give equal protection under the law to the black man in the eighteenth century. Don't look at me to justify bad behaviour, look among yourselves

wrong Clete . The 14th amendment is very much a part of the Constitution. And yes ,the intent of the authors and the relevant debates that preceded it's passage is very relevant in the rulings by the judiciary .

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

The report says on Page 4: “Ferguson's law-enforcement practices overwhelmingly impact African-Americans.

Duh, Ferguson is 67.4% African American, 29.3% White. Of course it impacts blacks more.

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You see ;Holder can't help but inject racism where none exists . Take the race nonsense out of the report and there are some very sound observations ....specifically about local policing's goal is revenue enhancement for the community . That is something practiced nationwide that must stop.

Tom yes you are right but statistics is the stronghold of the coward. Yes there are more black than white in that community but are you saying that blacks weren't disproportionately targeted by law enforcement. The facts tell you that there is at least a case to answer or do you believe that blacks are inherently a criminal element? Policing is about revenue enhancement and I thought it was a local tax collection system. Tom the laws target all law breakers but policing can decide who it impacts by the attention they give to members of the community. We want them to target law breakers but they use profiling to determine who to target

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statistics is the stronghold of the coward

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especially ones that cite disproportional targeting . If someone is pulled over and ticketed for a traffic violation and that person is black ;was that person pulled over because of their race ,or because of the violation ? The Holders and Tal's of the world would like us to believe that is the determining factor in the officer's actions. They go further and say that is proof of systemic racism in the police dept .

Here is a stat that could be manipulated the same way if one had a predetermined conclusion. It is an indisputable fact ,according to the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) that blacks violate seat belt laws more often than drivers of other races .
Racial Profiling and Traffic Stops | National Institute of Justice

So if there is a seatbelt enforcement check point ,more blacks than any other race are likely to be pulled over and ticketed . Is that a statistical "disparate impact "? Does it mean that police should stop enforcing seat belt laws ? Or maybe Holder would prefer racial quotas for seatbelt enforcement .

Policing isn't/shouldn't be about revenue enhancement. It should be about serve and protect. The cops have become the collectors for the power structure, and their justice is unevenly meted out.

I disagree with your assessment Tom, that race was injected by Holder where none exists, because it does exist, in the minds of those who think its OKAY to see a black man and think he should be rousted, harassed, and checked because he is black (like in stop and frisk).

That's how the Fergeson mess started, a cop harassing two black guys walking in their own neighborhood. Or a white guy following a black guy in his own neighborhood. That's racism, plain and simple, and the underlying cause of a greater problem.

I buy your argument that the founders could only go so far in establishing this country, because they reasoned some were not ready for what they were really proposing, but 200 hundred years later we still are revisiting those same attitudes, policies, and practices? I submit how much longer do we have to wait for some to get ready for the full embrace of the promises those founders so diligently started? The physical chains and whips were outlawed but its time for the social and economic ones to be outlawed well, and remove the BIG lie of equality we keep perpetrating.

Just because they have gotten better at practicing their racism, doesn't mean it doesn't still exist. Just because some don't want to see it, or acknowledge it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I sure won't go away unless we talk about it.

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cop harassing two black guys walking in their own neighborhood.

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if you can't even give an honest reason for officer Wilson confronted Brown then there isn't much else to say . Wilson stopped Brown and his friend because they were walking down the middle of the street . He told them the walk on the sidewalk.
That's it . He did not know about the cigars Brown had just robbed from the convenience store . He did not know at the time that Brown had mugged the clerk. Had Brown just followed Wilson's instructions he would've walked away .

Holder said that the US needed an Honest discussion on race. Well we are still waiting for Holder and the left to have one.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

if you can't even give an honest reason for officer Wilson confronted Brown then there isn't much else to say . Wilson stopped Brown and his friend because they were walking down the middle of the street . He told them the walk on the sidewalk.
That's it . He did not know about the cigars Brown had just robbed from the convenience store . He did not know at the time that Brown had mugged the clerk. Had Brown just followed Wilson's instructions he would've walked away.

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According to testimony they stated where they were going across the street in (their own neighborhood). You nor I have no idea how he addressed them, but they had a RIGHT to protest his order like the white guy with a gun in his OWN neighborhood in a previous link I provided.

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Holder said that the US needed an Honest discussion on race. Well we are still waiting for Holder and the left to have one.

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We are having one Tom, right here, on the news, and allover TV. You may not agree with what we say, but you cannot dismiss, or deny we are debating it.

it's not harassing them to instruct them to walk on the sidewalk and not block traffic by walking on the street. The lesson is that if you physically confront a police officer ,regardless of your race ;bad things can happen.

Oh Tom, it was already pointed out that they weren't blocking traffic, and no reason to bother with two black guys in their own neighborhood in the first place.

I know,the cops are ALWAYS right, and two black guys in their own neighborhood have to be wrong. SHHHHESH!!

Two black guys in their own neighbourhood isn't that unlawful assembly? Add jaywalking and you have probable cause. My point is the law can be used two ways; to promote public order or to harrass. There are laws about wearing seatbelts, why shouldn't this be a choice? And please don't give me the public health arguments because making it optional would eventually remove the idiots from among us and reduce the policing load. It is like policing traffic, it is easy to set up cameras rather than waste police time