Russia has retaliated to sanctions by banning imports, talk about shooting yourself in the foot. It has also banned cross Siberia flights which will bankrupt its own airline. I'm wondering if anyone is thinking this through over there, the only people Putin is hurting is the Russian people, the rest of us, well it is an inconvenience

Russia bans food imports from Australia, US, EU over sanctions - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I expect that Putin didn't get the lesson of the first cold war and now he has some chips in the form of energy, he thinks he has leverage. He had better ramp up all those old soviet industries and dust off some five year plans. I wonder what the Russians will think when they are driving Belurus tractors and Zim cars

He is reacting to hardliners in the Kremlin . Both sides need to ratchet it down a few notches . What Putin is being told by the Kremlin ,and the vast majority of the Russian people is fight for Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts; the Donbas region now ,or fight in Russia later . The pressure on Putin is tremendous . He doesn't want direct Russian intervention .He'd prefer that a federalist system emerge. (and I also believe that is probably the best outcome to avoid a total military solution to the Ukraine civil war ) .

Our sanctions have been minor to now ...but they are being increased with increased economic impact on Russia ,and the Russian response you note is minor in the impact (and I agree that it will probably backfire). However ,if Russia shut off the energy spigot to the Western countries with winter approaching ,it would be a major move.


I don't think the emperor's rhetoric has been helpful ,with his childish and inaccurate trash talking of Russia to Reuters and The Economist .
3 Things Barack Obama Got Wrong About Russia - Forbes

Ignorance or deliberate disinformation? Obama?s 'facts' about Russia all wrong ? RT News

His insults are either his ignorance or even worse ,the ignorance of those advising him . The US should be trying to find ways to tamp down the rising crisis ;not throwing gasoline on the flames.

Well Tom if he can't get war one way he will get it another. This is a nice european war, no muslims, very clear boundries.

Obama wants a legacy... any legacy other than being the only Preisdent that made Jimmy Carter look not only competant, but look like a genious. Even if it means a war.

I would have thought his nobel prize and his signature health care plan would be a sufficient legacy and he survived the GFC, hey

I value that worthless prize I got in the last box of CrackerJacks I ate higher than I would a Noble prize after that fiasco.

This is great... you've probibly all heard about it on the news...

VIDEO: Russian Students Mock Obama With Despicably Racist Laser Show

Quote:

---

Well Tom if he can't get war one way he will get it another

---

seems that is his goal...or at least the goal of Valerie Jarrett . I would remind the emperor that beyond some private industry start ups ,there is no way to get an American astronaut to ISS except by piggy back on a Soyez flight. I also would remind him that when an American astronaut almost drowned in his space suit ,the Russian model still operated properly . I would also remind the emperor that the only way available to supply American troops in Afghanistan is through Russian air space.

None of which is a reason to take crap from Putin.

Very short sighted of you Tal, of course you can fly your troops out to Diego Garcia or Guam but your astro naughts will come up a big zero but then you have experiemental space vehicles. These are the days of being cooperative, not confrontational.

Those Russian students gave Obama the big banana, now there is an insult you can't take lying down

It's not just us Clete but the Europeans too, and they have more skin in the game than we do. Putin isn't cooperating in the Ukraine, so must be confronted. Ukraine has as much right to sovereignty as Israel does don't they?

Sure do Tal but they have the means to enforce it, they have a large military but you have a separatist movement so this is a civil war. Remember your own civil war, your separatists were looking for outside help too

Had they found it during our civil war we would still have slavery. Had Hitler found it, we would be speaking German. Ukraine has allies. US, and Europe. Russians have Putin and sanctions. Pick a side.

No Tal I'm going to stay out of this one. I don't know enough to determine whether the seperatists have a legitimate grievence or not. I abhor their violence but you should remember your own nation was formed in this way, a few zealots with guns and a grievence. How can you say you had a right to do what you did and yet these people do not. In any case patriotism is the disguise of the scoundrel

I know who is running Ukraine now ;and saints they aint .

Putin sure ain't. Let the Ukrainians figure out their own stuff.

Well they are doing that

Quote:

---

Putin sure ain't. Let the Ukrainians figure out their own stuff.

---

R2P is the foreign policy of the emperor and his advisor Valerie Jarrett . It was our rationale for our intervention in Libya ;it is the rationale behind the emperor's call for air strikes against ISIS . The Putin Doctrine is to intervene to protect native Russians.

I got a bridge to sell you real cheap if you believe that.

Putin does what is politically expedient for Putin, right now he is getting kudos in Russia for doing what he is doing, restoring former glory

Quote:

---

Putin does what is politically expedient for Putin, right now he is getting kudos in Russia for doing what he is doing, restoring former glory

---

you are nuts if you think invading Ukraine is expedient for Putin . Yes he has to deal with hardliners in the Kremlin ,but it is not in Russia's interest to get into a fight in Ukraine ;especially with the threat of NATO intervention. However it is NOT in Russia's interest to have NATO expand to Russia's borders.

I don't see it makes any difference Tom except to a paranoid Russian

Ukraine 'destroyed' Russian military vehicles after border incursion | News.com.au

It is reported that Russian military vehicles have been destroyed in southern Ukraine, the ruse of humanitarian aid is shown for what it is

Apparently Putin's approval rating is in the 80s, which is far better than any Western leader, but since the government has a lot of control over the media, and elections are a sham, I wonder if his popularity is really that high among average people. Reminds me of that old joke about the annual Kremlin Correspondents' Association Dinner where the media gather to laugh at Putin's jokes or else.

Earl we are going down a road here we have seen before. Despotism is nasty, and Putin is nasty, just a bad joke. The Russian state went from communist totalitarianism to oligarcyic totitarianism and now twenty years later it is looking to recover past glories on the back of economic domination of Europe. The Russians want back their lost empire and the Ukraine was part of the Russian empire for a long time. They think Putin is strong enough to succeed so they applaud him, one day he will become as brutal as Stalin. Certain states have escaped the Russian grip, but has it done them any good? Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, just economic backwaters, but the Ukraine is something else

Ukraine: Russian tank column enters southeast - Europe news

Apparently a Russian armoured column has moved into the Ukraine. We can expect various excuses for this, the need to secure the route to Crimea, The support of the Russian population in the face of Ukrainian successes, and the usual excuses for territorial grabs, as well as diversion to draw Ukrainian forces but it is dangerous brinkmanship

Somewhat reminiscent of its adventurism in Afghanistan, Russia has deployed forces in the Ukraine even as Putin holds talks with the Ukrainian president. He has made good on his threat to prevent Ukraine signing a agreement with the EU

Ukraine: 'Convoy of Russian tanks, weaponry rolling in through southeast'

Ok so it's time to man up and take sides in defending the Ukraine

it's all part of the negotiations. I wonder what Ukraine will do when Russia cuts off their energy supply ? The NATO nations should note that winter comes early there . Why do you think Germany is so desperate to negotiate a deal when the rest of the NATO minister bluster ? Petro Poroshenko is a creation of Washington ;but I have no desire to commit US assets defending him. This clown who dissolved Parliament and is calling for general elections as he shells half his population does not deserve our support.

So you would rather support Putin and gift the Ukraine to him? What's next; Poland? Moldova? Romania? why stop there, Germany is looking pretty good. The real question is why he would want any of it when he has the economic might to grab them all by the throat and of course you along with them. I see that famous US back seat is back in use

Vlad doesn't have a leg to stand on in any negotiation unless he actually has something under his control in the Ukraine. Quiet as it's kept, the rebels have been slowly getting their butts kicked by the regular army.

And Putin intends to stop that happening

Quote:

---

So you would rather support Putin and gift the Ukraine to him? What's next; Poland? Moldova? Romania? why stop there, Germany is looking pretty good. The real question is why he would want any of it when he has the economic might to grab them all by the throat and of course you along with them. I see that famous US back seat is back in use

---

Look at it from the Russian perspective . Instead of forging a real peace after the cold war ,NATO has been on a steady march right up to Russia's borders . I don't condone his actions in Ukraine ;nor earlier in Georgia. Neither did I condone the West carving out a piece of Serbia when the Russians did not have the power to defend their ally .
Make no mistake . It's NATO's advance that is causing the greatest instability .
It's a shame ,had the Clintonistas supported the democratic government in Russia when the Soviet Union fell ,we might never had to deal with the likes of Putin.

That's speculation Tom, and the NATO scare is pure strawman argument to justify destabilizing, divide and reconquer old territory for the economic interests of the Russian elites. We do agree on the present invasion to bolster the separatist rebels is a negotiation tool to leverage a better deal.

Of course it's speculation . All what if scenarios are .

As far as NATO .... Look back at history ..2 pretty significant invasions of Russia from the West went right through Ukraine.

Stop speculating Tom and stick with the facts, NATO didn't start this and nations wanted the NATO umbrella because most of the significant invasions of Europe in history came out of the east, including the Russians in 1945. You speak like a Russian sympathiser, Mccarthy would have had fun with your remarks, I bet there is a red under your bed. The Ukraine wants to remain free and we should help them, even if it means confronting Russia militarily

I didn't hear you calling for intervention when Russia was carving pieces of Georgia ( Abkhazia and South Ossetia) Actually it is NATO that has been pushing for Eastern European memberships.NATO added 12 Eastern European countries from 1999 to 2009.Would the US have tolerated something simular in the Western hemisphere? The US almost went to war with Russia 1963 because of Russian expansion up to our border in one country . Do you not see the comparison ? Ukraine is essential in Moscow’s view to its national security ;and based on it's history ,it's existance.

Look at the facts .It was the US that backed the overthrow of the democratically elected gvt of Viktor Yanukovych in Kiev in Feb. Russia wanted a negotiated settlement and new elections. When the EU became concerned that our stand could lead to a civil war , assistant secretary of State for European and Eurasian affairs, Victoria Nuland said "F the EU" (great diplomatic lingo). When new elections were hastily held ,most of Eastern Ukraine was disenfranchise . That is why the civil war there began.
And how has Kiev conducted this war ? They have indescriminantly shelling urban population centers in Donetsk.We almost bombed Assad in Syria over the same pretext. The real truth is that Ukraine is 2 nations in one artifical border. The people of the west want integration into the EU .The people in the east are largely ethnic Russians .They had a referendum in Crimea .97% chose to leave Ukraine .The referendum was monitored by many countries, including pro-western organisations and the result still turned out in Russia's favour.
Why not have another referendum like it in Donetsk ? You know why not . All the pretext of supporting the Kiev government's war would disappear.

A weak central government that cannot take care of it's own people is subject to regional and local factions. The argument of states rights, or regional autonomy, is an old one, that has divided nations, and redrawn maps for centuries.

Vlad stirs the pot well in dividing the Ukraine. Restoration of Russian domination has always been his goal.

Quote:

---

The argument of states rights, or regional autonomy, is an old one, that has divided nations, and redrawn maps for centuries.

---

In Great Britian there is about to be a referendum for Scottish autonomy . That is the preferred way of dealing with it rather than shelling Glasgow into rubble .

Agreed!

You draw a long bow here, the Ukraine held elections and they didn't favour Russia, so Russia fermented discontent. How about we stir up discontent in California, how long before you would move the army in? What if Mexico invaded to get back its lost territory. Would you stand idly by?