One parent really lays it on the line

Richard Martinez criticises gun laws after his son Christopher was killed near the University of California | News.com.au

and now I'm going to hear a barrage of how gun owners are responsible, and how they have "rights" but don't others have "rights"? and a preeminent natural right that predates something written on a piece of paper? the right to life! But the guy is right, what is happening is some form of madness, deniel in fact of the natural right of every person to live without threat of violence and death

You want a reasonable compromise? no person under the age of 25 years be allowed to be in possession of a weapon. why do I say this, because recent mass killings appear to have been perpetrated by persons under 25 years of age

So are you trying to say that more laws are going to stop the lawbreakers? Sorry but it doesn't seem to be working that way. This is more to do about mental illness then it is about guns. What rights do you wish to give to the mentally ill ?

He was a nut!! Was one for a long time.

Your title of "irresponsible politicians," Clete, hints at a possible cause aside from the mental health of the shooter. I take the opposite view of your solution. Adding marksmanship and safety to middle school curricula would lessen the attractiveness of guns as status symbols. If your score on Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto was less of a deal, your tendency to refer to firearms in real life would be lessened as well.


Tal has this one pegged, tho'. It looks like his emotional development stopped at puberty.

There are many gun laws already... they are often not enforced as they should be. Tighten up on that issue, along with better recognition and support in the mental health arena, and working towards getting families back on track (which in turn will help with the mental health issue), and you'll see change.

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Originally Posted by Catsmine

Your title of "irresponsible politicians," Clete, hints at a possible cause aside from the mental health of the shooter. I take the opposite view of your solution. Adding marksmanship and safety to middle school curricula would lessen the attractiveness of guns as status symbols. If your score on Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto was less of a deal, your tendency to refer to firearms in real life would be lessened as well.

Tal has this one pegged, tho'. It looks like his emotional development stopped at puberty.

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the title of the OP were the words of a distraught father of a victim, I felt it encapsalated the problem perfectly. This shooter was a victim of his society and it would seem many people pulled that trigger and I'm waiting for someone to tell us guns don't kill people. The availability of guns in the society is the problem, it it too easy to find that sort of crutch.

Now you want to blame video games, it is interesting that once video games came on the screen kids stopped playing cowboys and indians but in reality the fantasy no longer stopped in the backyard and the joystick no longer felt like a gun and no longer satisfied. tal certainly has this one pegged the emotional development of your whole nation stopped in puberty, time to grow up

He was no victim of the society. He was a nut. The emotional fallout of horror and shock will be exploited as it always is. Your own diatribe is an example of that fact.

Don't you follow the details? he was rejected over and over again, that makes him a victim of a narcissistic society. The end result, he created other victims. My diatribe, as you call it, is on the money, we all have right to safety, it is not the prerogative of the gun owner. This fellow's disorder should have been apparent long before he killed people and it should be that he should not have been able to obtain weapons and he didn't just have one apparently'. But then we see similar scenarios repeated over and over again, and no one takes any action, because the right to possess a firearm is sacrosanct. Where were all those citizens who were shooting back? they weren't there, that's theory number one blown Where was the regulatory system that prevented him from obtaining a gun, that's theory number two blown.

The fact is guns don't prevent violence, they enable it, they enhance it. They do not enhance your rights, they actually subvert them. I live in a place where the politicians did not fear to take action and their courageous action means events like this don't happen here very often. The proof that guns removed from the general community do, in fact, lessen these incidents is obvious, without the citizens political rights being infringed

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Don't you follow the details? he was rejected over and over again, that makes him a victim of a narcissistic society.

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HE claimed he was rejected. I'm waiting to hear reports to counter that. According to his menifesto, he was socially fine until he hit puberty when he figured out he was short and weak. Those two facts destroyed his self esteem.

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This fellow's disorder should have been apparent long before he killed people

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He had been seeing myriads of counselors and therapists and doctor for years. So why didn't they pick up on this? Why could he legally buy guns?

Hmmm, Guns. He also hacked to death 3 roommates with a knife. No more Steak Knives and all food will be eaten with a plastic spoon from now on. Opps there goes baseball no more bats, and no more golf clubs.

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Originally Posted by catonsville

Hmmm, Guns. He also hacked to death 3 roommates with a knife. No more Steak Knives and all food will be eaten with a plastic spoon from now on. Opps there goes baseball no more bats, and no more golf clubs.

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you go to the sublime to the rediculous if you want to. People in therapy should not be allowed to possess weapons they shoudl be on a registry and their homes checked

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He had been seeing myriads of counselors and therapists and doctor for years. So why didn't they pick up on this? Why could he legally buy guns?

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A terrific question and I would like to hear the answer frome those politicians and the NRA. Fact is they will cringe in the corner like the craven cowards they are before they answer that one. A coward is a person who won't face the big issues

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HE claimed he was rejected. I'm waiting to hear reports to counter that. According to his menifesto, he was socially fine until he hit puberty when he figured out he was short and weak. Those two facts destroyed his self esteem

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Here we go blame the victim and not his persecuters, those up themselves women who didn't want to know him. So now every one who feels rejection has to have it confirmed before it is rejection. Yes being short will destroy your self esteem and so will other problems but we live in an imperfect world and most don't measure up to perfect a fact that should be addressed in school, not be all you can be, but be who you are

" People in therapy should not be allowed to possess weapons they shoudl be on a registry and their homes checked"

Hmmm, can't disagree with the first part of your statement but the second part is far out. The government would love if they could get that into law. Not a smidegen of abuse with that law.

you see you miss the point; to be effective law enforcement has to be active not passive, proactive not reactive. It is useless having laws unless you have active law enforcement, you have allowed due process to get in the way of common sense, probable cause to prevent law enforcement, and lobbys and corruption to replace democracy.

The days of the absolute monarch have gone and yet you still act as if he lived next door. There are many reasons today why police forces should be able to inspect premises on the report of various responsible people, medical practitioners and such regarding many conditions including mental condition, drug addiction and so forth. but no you want to wait until someone else is dead and then you can say "what a terrible thing" "Those poor people"

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Originally Posted by paraclete

you see you miss the point; to be effective law enforcement has to be active not passive, proactive not reactive. It is useless having laws unless you have active law enforcement, you have allowed due process to get in the way of common sense, probable cause to prevent law enforcement, and lobbys and corruption to replace democracy.

The days of the absolute monarch have gone and yet you still act as if he lived next door. There are many reasons today why police forces should be able to inspect premises on the report of various responsible people, medical practitioners and such regarding many conditions including mental condition, drug addiction and so forth. but no you want to wait until someone else is dead and then you can say "what a terrible thing" "Those poor people"

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So in a nutshell you want the government to arrest people based on thought alone ? That doesnt sound like a free society to me. California has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. Also there are laws here to protect privacy such as HIPAA laws. Summary of the HIPAA Privacy Rule

Having it your way would almost be a sure thing that every couple that divorces or has a spat should recieve a visit and walkthrough from the government. Anyone violating any law no matter how minor needs to be checked for compliance. That is not somewhere I want to live. I choose to be free and I take my chances by allowing others freedom also. In this case the system failed. The perp was mentally ill. Dont confuse that with being stupid. From what I have read about it there were chances to stop everything and mis steps along the way that ending in lives being lost. I mourn those losses along with those of my nation.

Well said CDad. What do you think of a tweak in the law that says when a family member calls in a welfare check on another family member we do more than just knock on the door? Maybe a walk through is warranted then. Reasonable as a reaction to family concerns?

One thing that stood out about this nut is how he fooled law enforcement. They could have checked to see if he was a gun owner when the parents called 3 weeks ago, and maybe looked deeper than just a knock on the door.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Well said CDad. What do you think of a tweak in the law that says when a family member calls in a welfare check on another family member we do more than just knock on the door? Maybe a walk through is warranted then. Reasonable as a reaction to family concerns?

One thing that stood out about this nut is how he fooled law enforcement. They could have checked to see if he was a gun owner when the parents called 3 weeks ago, and maybe looked deeper than just a knock on the door.

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And actually viewed those videos the parents were concerned about.

I also think it is marvelous that people will go from the sublime to the rediculous or take a point to an extreme to denegrate it

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So in a nutshell you want the government to arrest people based on thought alone ?

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a statement like that begs the question but to ask it would denegrate you. Don't think that I am as stupid as you apparently think. The smoking gun was there and it wasn't followed up thouroughly, we see the same thing repeated in these cases, the perp was mentally ill and the indications were clear but no action taken. You have to ask why, what stopped them? Inadequate laws, or stupid laws? If the cops do their job and prevent a crime the case will be thrown out because of the presumption of a rights infringement or worse they will be sued, their time wasted and their job rendered ineffective. You need to wake up

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Having it your way would almost be a sure thing that every couple that divorces or has a spat should recieve a visit and walkthrough from the government.

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here we are begging the question and putting up the strawman. Rule one of undergraduate debate, make the opposition look stupid. But the reality is fireams should be removed from those situations. Once you breach the law you have lost your right to privacy and given the police the right to enquire so have a spat with you wife that gets loud enough to call the cops and there you are

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Well said CDad. What do you think of a tweak in the law that says when a family member calls in a welfare check on another family member we do more than just knock on the door? Maybe a walk through is warranted then. Reasonable as a reaction to family concerns?

One thing that stood out about this nut is how he fooled law enforcement. They could have checked to see if he was a gun owner when the parents called 3 weeks ago, and maybe looked deeper than just a knock on the door.

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Here is the problem with a tweak as your saying. They went to the location for a welfare check and the did interveiw the person that it was called in on. That is really all the police can do. If you tweak it further then how far are you wanting to go with it? If a welfare check is called in by a disgruntled spouse in a custody battle should the children be removed automatically ? If the person being checked is doing something illegal and discovery is only made by a walkthrough inspection without that persons permission is that ok too? In most cases a search warrant is called for to enter a home without consent unless done during the comission of a crime. We need to be very careful about what we do when we start tweaking the law because of emotions in the moment. Is there responsibility by social networks to monitor whats being said on them - Yes. Should comments and subject matter be examined for dangerous content - Yes. Much of what has been in the news has ties to social media. Part of being a martyr is being know for a cause and being subject to harsh treatment or death because of it. Many of the ones with mental imbalance seem to be on that direct path and leave clues beforehand. I think with those you can act on the clues and check out the situation to its fullest extent. The only way for it to involve the police is for something to have happened and by comments being made in writing that is enough to start the wheels turning and investigate.

ah the voice of reason. but "acting on clues" that infringes the inalienable right to be stupid being defended here

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Originally Posted by paraclete

ah the voice of reason. but "acting on clues" that infringes the inalienable right to be stupid being defended here

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I think your missing how the laws work over here in this country. What I spoke about infringes on no rights. A person is still entitled to be as stupid as they wish. There are consequences to actions and if your acting stupid then you may bare the brunt of the law for doing so. Stupidity isnt limited to mentally ill. Almost everyone at some point in their life does something stupid. The results vary with each act.

There are different lines between spying on someone vs them shouting out in the public square. It is that which is public that needs to be under scrutiny and not a persons private life until such a time as the act warrants it.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

you see you miss the point; to be effective law enforcement has to be active not passive, proactive not reactive. It is useless having laws unless you have active law enforcement, you have allowed due process to get in the way of common sense, probable cause to prevent law enforcement, and lobbys and corruption to replace democracy.

The days of the absolute monarch have gone and yet you still act as if he lived next door. There are many reasons today why police forces should be able to inspect premises on the report of various responsible people, medical practitioners and such regarding many conditions including mental condition, drug addiction and so forth. but no you want to wait until someone else is dead and then you can say "what a terrible thing" "Those poor people"

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To point out absurdity by being absurd: I suppose the local ASIS office has a key to your house and vehicle?

They don't need it, but ASIS is not a police force, their concern is national security like your NSA, but I have no doubt they watch subversives closely which is as it should be.

The difference here is how we define subversives. I have long said that muslim represent a fifth column in our midst, a group of people who's true loyalties are unclear. Again and Again we see statements that undermine our values. do they want to live peacefully, only on their own terms. We have laws on immigration and dealing with refugees and asylum seekers, continually we see muslims attempting to flout these laws and when intercepted and placed in custody they act in deniel and even with violence. Do we go to their countries and flout their laws? do we go to their countries and form armed criminal gangs? Do we shoot up police stations? Finance insurrections in far places? encourage people to go an fight in civil wars?

We have just had a report on unrest and murder in a PNG refugee camp. Where did the trouble lie. In the attitude of muslims. in the subversive behaviour of muslims

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Originally Posted by paraclete

They don't need it, but ASIS is not a police force, their concern is national security like your NSA, but I have no doubt they watch subversives closely which is as it should be.

The difference here is how we define subversives. I have long said that muslim represent a fifth column in our midst, a group of people who's true loyalties are unclear. Again and Again we see statements that undermine our values. do they want to live peacefully, only on their own terms. We have laws on immigration and dealing with refugees and asylum seekers, continually we see muslims attempting to flout these laws and when intercepted and placed in custody they act in deniel and even with violence. Do we go to their countries and flout their laws? do we go to their countries and form armed criminal gangs? Do we shoot up police stations? Finance insurrections in far places? encourage people to go an fight in civil wars?

We have just had a report on unrest and murder in a PNG refugee camp. Where did the trouble lie. In the attitude of muslims. in the subversive behaviour of muslims

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Really nice deflection. Do you advocate putting microphones in Mosques to catch jihadists before they do anything? That seemed to be the thrust of your "pro-active law enforcement" post. What about Tories? Socialists? Blackfellas?

well cats I have no doubt the hate speech of certain muslim clerics needs to be monitored, I'm surprised you are willing to appease them regarding their attitudes to women. What is proactive law enforcement, it is not sitting on your butt waiting for a crime to be committed, but seeking intelligence and watching. I regard our anti-bikie laws as proactive policing, recognising that there are certain groups who consider themselves above the law and targeting them. Perhaps you don't have laws regarding criminal association but we do. Proactive policing is talking to the kids, being seen in the trouble spots, addressing social issues.

You want to know what I think about red necked louts or greenie activists who disrupt public order, a little proactive policing and whether the rioters are muslims, ethnics or abo's the answer is the same, but I don't know who these blackfella's are, there are many dark skinned people here from various parts of the world so blackfella's, not so discernible as they might be in your culture.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

well cats I have no doubt the hate speech of certain muslim clerics needs to be monitored, I'm surprised you are willing to appease them regarding their attitudes to women. What is proactive law enforcement, it is not sitting on your butt waiting for a crime to be committed, but seeking intelligence and watching. I regard our anti-bikie laws as proactive policing, recognising that there are certain groups who consider themselves above the law and targeting them. Perhaps you don't have laws regarding criminal association but we do. Proactive policing is talking to the kids, being seen in the trouble spots, addressing social issues.

You want to know what I think about red necked louts or greenie activists who disrupt public order, a little proactive policing and whether the rioters are muslims, ethnics or abo's the answer is the same, but I don't know who these blackfella's are, there are many dark skinned people here from various parts of the world so blackfella's, not so discernible as they might be in your culture.

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Your anit-bikie laws dont seem too popular amongust your fellow countrymen.

Queensland anti-bikie laws: Motorcycle gangs lodge High Court challenge against controversial measures - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


Queensland's anti-bikie laws: We're all criminals now

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Originally Posted by cdad

Your anit-bikie laws dont seem too popular amongust your fellow countrymen.

Queensland anti-bikie laws: Motorcycle gangs lodge High Court challenge against controversial measures - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


Queensland's anti-bikie laws: We're all criminals now

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only among the bikies, us law abiding citizens reckon they got this one right, we want to see the end of these yobbo's anyway the bikie gangs have been taken over by muslims so nip em in the bud.

you really have to learn to ignore media sensationalism and you really need to know who the players are. That article referred to the Finks MC a dangerous group of drug dealers and malcontents. Anyone who associates with them is as we say, on the "highway to hell" and certainly not innocent

Makes me laugh as a certain segment of society apparently believes inanimate object (guns) have sudenlt sprung to life like zombies and are walking the streets randomly attacking living people.

Maybe if the mentally unstable element is locked up like they once were... this would not be happening.

When I was still in scool, it wasn't unusual for some kids to go hunting before school....and have their gun in their car......we never once had issues. But that was back before the ACLU turned them (the mentally unstable people) loose from the nuthouses.

(and before it comes up...and it will, we aren't talking the people with autism, and the others who aren't a danger to most....but the people who actually are a danger to the public that were amoung them)

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Makes me laugh as a certain segment of society apparently believes inanimate object (guns) have sudenlt sprung to life like zombies and are walking the streets randomly attacking living people.

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So why can't we buy tanks and missiles and grenades and heroin legally?! It's a conspiracy!

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So why can't we buy tanks and missiles and grenades and heroin legally?! It's a conspiracy!

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You ( a private citizen) can buy tanks and old military armoured cars... probibly even in Canada. But it's a very expensive hobby... Arnold Schwarzenegger owns one. So do a lot of other people.

Watch the category, Military Vehicles on eBay just for one. Plus there are websites that specialize in them... you can even import them from eastern and western Europe.

THere are a lot of hand grenades in the hands of private citizens... I don't have any, never really felt the need to have any for that matter... but I could find them if I ever wanted some. A person with fundemental metalworking skills and very little equipment could turn them out very easily. They are typically incredibly crude devices. Its harder to fix a lawnmower.

You might find it surprising but there are a lot of legal machine guns in the hands of private citizens... as well as legal silencers... (and an unknown number of unregistrered ones).

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Makes me laugh as a certain segment of society apparently believes inanimate object (guns) have sudenlt sprung to life like zombies and are walking the streets randomly attacking living people.

Maybe if the mentally unstable element is locked up like they once were... this would not be happening.

When I was still in scool, it wasn't unusual for some kids to go hunting before school....and have their gun in their car......we never once had issues. But that was back before the ACLU turned them (the mentally unstable people) loose from the nuthouses.

(and before it comes up...and it will, we aren't talking the people with autism, and the others who aren't a danger to most....but the people who actually are a danger to the public that were amoung them)

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Yes and I used to travel with a hair triggered .22 in my golf bag, used it for shooting crows but I've grown up and that sort of behaviour is no longer acceptable.
You can lock up all the peopel you like, you already do and it hasn't solved the problem, funny about that, you would have thought removing the crimes from the streets would have made a difference

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Yes and I used to travel with a hair triggered .22 in my golf bag, used it for shooting crows but I've grown up and that sort of behaviour is no longer acceptable.
You can lock up all the peopel you like, you already do and it hasn't solved the problem, funny about that, you would have thought removing the crimes from the streets would have made a difference

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We have the constitutional RIGHT to own them... something few other citizens of the world have.

When drugs are smuggled by the metric ton... guns can be just as easily. Then you are at the mercy of the criminals... and any despot that manages to get elected that has enough like minded lunatic followers.

Far too many examples in far too many countries in just the last 100 years to ignore.

THe problem isn't that they get locked up...the problem is enough of the worst ones aren't getting executed thanks to the bleeding heart types (who coincidently tend to have no compassion towards an unborn child) that have so much compassion for someone who has a complete lack of it.

Gang Affiliation should raise any crime to a capital crime.

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You ( a private citizen) can buy tanks and old military armoured cars... probibly even in Canada. But it's a very expensive hobby... Arnold Schwarzenegger owns one. So do a lot of other people.

Watch the category, Military Vehicles on eBay just for one. Plus there are websites that specialize in them... you can even import them from eastern and western Europe.

THere are a lot of hand grenades in the hands of private citizens...

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None can use live ammo though - that kind of makes a difference.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

None can use live ammo though - that kind of makes a difference.

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Its still a tank and armoured car... without a functional gun , and yes, most (as in almost all) aren't functional.

And honestly... I think you CAN get a license to have one operational... (here in some parts of the USA anyway) I'm not sure where or what it would take. There would just be very few places one could even use it if you could find or afford the ammunition for it.

Part of the Demilitarization process renders the gun scrap (usually the breach is torch cut and bore welded... as they typically don't sell them intact. And there is lots of fun to be had with a tank or armoured car that doesn't involve making things go boom.

There are a lot of actual cannons....( type used in Civil war) in private hands...and many are fired from time to time. (Some are reproductions). But yes, those ARE a totally different class than a rifled bore gun in a tank or amoured car.

But for that matter.....Muskets and muzzleloaders aren't registered and don't have the same restrictions on ownership either for the same reasons.

So why can't one buy a live tank and live ammo? Why not have live grenades available to all? They are only inanimate objects that don't suddenly spring to life randomly attack living people.

Because in the wrong irresponsible hands they are dangerous. Laws prohibit them. Crazy people and criminals are hard to keep track of.

what Clete is really looking for is big government to replace a society increasingly lacking a moral compass. The kid's old man makes movies about teens killing each other in a dystopian survivalist ritual (that's when he's making black and white photos of naked women ) .It appears that Elliot Rodgers biggest gripe was that he was not living the fantasy hedonistic life that his Hollywierdo lifestyle suggested was the norm.
BTW ;he ended the murder spree when confronted by armed men. But as is often the case ;when seconds count ,the cops are minutes away.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

It appears that Elliot Rodgers biggest gripe was that he was not living the fantasy hedonistic life that his Hollywierdo lifestyle suggested was the norm.

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Apparently, you haven't read his manifesto.

why would I waste my time reading a 140 page rant ? He complained he didn't get any from a 10 year old girl.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Hollywierdo lifestyle

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What lifestyle is that?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

why would I waste my time reading a 140 page rant ? He complained he didn't get any from a 10 year old girl.

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It isn't a rant. It is well written and makes perfect sense. Who said that about the 10-year-old girl?