Hello:
If I ran a doughnut shop in Arizona, and held a SINCERE religious belief that cops are IMMORAL, can I refuse to serve them?
excon
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Hello:
If I ran a doughnut shop in Arizona, and held a SINCERE religious belief that cops are IMMORAL, can I refuse to serve them?
excon
Can the cop force you to violate your beliefs?
Hello again, Steve:
No more than selling a hamburger to a gay person can. But in Arizona the hamburger store owner WILL be able to refuse to serve them.Quote:
Can the cop force you to violate your beliefs?
Should it pass, apparently you're saying that I CAN refuse to serve the cop. At least you're being consistent (for NOW, but that's gonna change, isn't it?).
excon
PS> Baseball?
If your belief allows you to discriminate against other Americans, you shouldn't be in business, you should be in church doing business your religion allows. No church is above the law, and the "devil made me do it" is no excuse. Tax the church if you want to do BUSINESS.
>PS:Baseball. Can't wait!! <
I'd sell them the donuts, but then I think if we were a civilized society there could be room for compromise. But it isn't about selling donuts, it's about sincere people being forced to PARTICIPATE in things that violate their conscience or express messages contrary to their faith.
Baking a gay couple a cake is no big deal to me, forcing me to create a cake that reflects their orientation might cross the line for some. Does only the gay couple's rights matter? How about I make the cake and you buy your topper? Or why would you even want to do business with me knowing my heart isn't in it? Find another cake and everyone can be happy.
We don't abandon our beliefs in the public square. I realize you lefties want to put Christians in the closet but sorry, the first amendment isn't void in my place of business and the church exists to worship and serve, not sell donuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
P.S. Do y'all really think you stand a chance in baseball?
Hello again, Steve:
Look. I sympathize with your religious beliefs... But, when you practice them OUTSIDE of the church, you open yourself up to the discussion about WHO'S beliefs are we gonna make superior over others.. You think YOUR beliefs should be supreme. But, according to our beloved 1st Amendment, MY beliefs are equal to yours, even if I just formed a church. The 1st Amendment says NOTHING about older religions versus newer ones.
Who are you to tell ME that MY religious beliefs CAN'T be centered around a HATRED for cops??
excon
I made no such argument, I'm not challenging your beliefs or their equality. I said it's about forcing me to violate those beliefs. Who trumps who there?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
As a public librarian (with my own beliefs about things), I never asked anyone if he was alcoholic or gay or divorced or an immigrant or a different religion/political standing before I checked out books to him. All that mattered was that he had paid his property taxes and had a library card in good standing. As a counselor, I never have checked first and/or refused a client who was alcoholic or gay or divorced or an immigrant or a different religion/political standing either. If he couldn't pay what I asked, we bartered and worked it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Was I wrong? Should I have been pickier?
Then why would you be in a business from which you would push away paying clients/customers?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
If I was a cop, I would sue you for discrimination Ex. That's also in the law. Don't want to provide me a service, we go to court. See how many donuts you make for profit or a livelihood after my lawyers serves you with court papers. I don't care what you believe. Not my business. Screwing me over in the name of your god is my business, and it isn't going to happen.
Sue the government of Arizona. Let them pay for their religious belief that's all about bad behavior.
Personally, I take a dim view of lawmakers making it easy to discriminate. Much like the "Stand your ground" laws that allow for killing people you don't like because you FEEL threatened.
PS.>Looking to have a GREAT year<
Hello again, Steve:
Well, THAT'S the problem, because when you bring those beliefs into the PUBLIC sphere, the discussion becomes WHO'S beliefs does the state back? YOUR beliefs do not trump MINE.Quote:
forcing me to violate those beliefs
If your beliefs are SOOOOO important to you, then WHY are you doing business with the secular community AT ALL? Doesn't a LOT of what they do OFFEND you??? Should you be required to bake a cake for a jaywalker, a wife beater, or an adulterer??
What if some black guy who's NOT gay, but swishes a little bit, is refused service? Can he sue?
excon
I believe that's what I said, your beliefs don't trump mine so how can you force me to violate mine???????Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
So I was right, you think Christians should only practice their religion in the home or church. Sorry, ain't happening buster and I'm damned offended you think so.Quote:
If your beliefs are SOOOOO important to you, then WHY are you doing business with the secular community AT ALL? Doesn't a LOT of what they do OFFEND you??? Should you be required to bake a cake for a jaywalker, a wife beater, or an adulterer??
So the Christians who don't discriminate against their fellow man is WRONG? What if he will sell a cop a donut? Is it okay for him to do a gay wedding cake too?
Hey, I tried to be reasonable and rational but there is obviously no point in arguing with two people who think it's OK top force nuns to buy birth control and expect us to keep our beliefs at home. Keep your own damn beliefs at home.
I wonder what would happen if a Black deli owner refused to cater a local KKK chapter event ? ....or a gay owner forced to cater to an American Family Association meeting ? Last year there was a band that pulled out of performing at a Boy Scout Jamboree because of the groups position on allowing gay scouts. Wonder why they should have such discriminatory rights ?
After studying the Bible all my life, my guess is that Jesus would have not only baked the cake, but decorated it too and also happily attended the gay wedding.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
It's your right to believe that but I think you'd be sorely disappointed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No nun is forced to buy birth control. Have you done a survey as to how many nuns have been prescribed birth control pills because of "female problems" or acne?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
There you go again, getting all excited instead of debating the issues. I wouldn't make nuns buy BC. Nor does the law, but the nuns don't want anyone buying BC, not even separately aside from the their own healthcare coverage. I mean what's wrong with their female employees having a separate rider that they want?
And some nuns doesn't object and offer a full range of female health concerns as part of their ministry. Right here in Texas. Are they wrong too?
You don't remember reading about all the lowlife types Jesus used to hang around with -- and even EAT with?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Train no less.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Train Drops Out to Protest Boy Scouts’ Anti-Gay Policy - ABC News
Seems they got a lot of support for backing out of their booking, no disconnect there, eh?
We're supposed to do that, but you'll be hard pressed to find where he ever participated in, encouraged or approved of their sins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
That's a private business, not a bakery on Main Street.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I fail to see how that matters, Train earns its profits from the public, they booked the gig and THEN backed out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
First of all, the sin you are talking about is not a sin. The OT passage in Lev. has been mistranslated and misunderstood for centuries. The same goes for what St. Paul wrote. There are Bible historians who believe Paul himself was gay.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
So Jesus talking with and even eating a meal with sinners says what about Jesus and how he felt about them?
Hello again, Steve:
If Christians can discriminate, so can my church. Clearly, you don't deny that that's the law.
But, if my church discriminated in the workplace, and yours did too, and then tals did, and WG's did, and NK's atheists weighed in, and then EVERYBODY did, would YOU like to live in a place like that?
excon
Gosh darn! If I discriminated, I wouldn't have any counseling clients! After all, there is no one as perfect as I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Okie dokie, you run with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I have -- and it makes total sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Train discriminated and was cheered. Like I said, you want Christians to keep their beliefs to themselves, at home, or at church while forcing us to violate them. Sorry bud, I tried to be reasonable and rational but we won't be silenced.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I'm a lifelong Christian -- a conservative Lutheran preacher's kid -- and vehemently disagree with you. Who's the "we"?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Obviously those Christians they want silenced who refuse to be silenced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So there are different kinds of Christianity? Which one is the correct version?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
You tell me, I make no such claim. Obviously you and I disagree on dogma so I guess that makes at least two different kinds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Yes, you do. Your "we" is trying to change the public marketplace, women's rights and place in society, education and what is being taught, who can marry, and also turn the U.S. into a theocracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
horsesh*t. Argue honestly, a REAL Christian would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Well hell, how the freak do you tell a REAL Christian from a fake one?
I guess either you believe in freedom of association or you don't . By your own argument ,such discrimination comes at a cost and a competitive disadvantage to the business owner as opposed to those that provide services to all.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
How am I dishonest?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
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