Ask Me Help Desk - Limprod at it again..

Limprod at it again..

Hello:

I'm NOT Catholic, but if I was, I'd be OFFENDED that Limbaugh, who's NOT Catholic either, INSTRUCTS the Pope about Catholicism. You're NOT???

Quote:

Conservative radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh ripped into Pope Francis' economic views on the evils of unfettered capitalism.

Limbaugh described the pope's recent document "Evangelii Gaudium" (The Joy of the Gospel), as "dramatically, embarrassingly, puzzlingly wrong."

"This is just pure Marxism coming out of the mouth of the pope," Limbaugh stated in a program titled "It's Sad How Wrong Pope Francis Is (Unless It's a Deliberate Mistranslation By Leftists)."

excon

Fortunately Francis has a lot more influence than Rush does.

The Pope should stick to spirituality . As economist he sucks. He makes the claim that he opposes the liberation theology of his Jesuit order ,but I wonder ...

That being said ,I have not completely read Evangelii Gaudium yet and am sure there is much more to it than what the press has cherry-picked .

Hello again, tom:

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The Pope should stick to spirituality .

As should the church. However, you don't seem to mind ITS involvement in politics, as long as it's YOUR politics..

I understand... I do.

excon

If you mean the killing of babies then that goes beyond politics.
I'm willing to give this Pope a pass because his limited experience with 'capitalism' was actually Peronista cronyism.

Hello again, tom:

I see. If the issue is IMPORTANT enough, the CHURCH should absolutely get involved, but not the POPE.

I understand... Really...

excon

I'll bet this pope reads books and newspapers and talks politics with people. Abortion is the least of the issues about women's rights.

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I'll bet this pope reads books and newspapers and talks politics with people. Abortion is the least of the issues about women's rights.

Papal authority only extends to teaching on economic matters as those economic matters involve questions of morality and faith. Other than that ,the Pope has no special expertise in economics....period ... economics is not an issue where 'infallibility applies.

The pope isn't speaking "ex cathedra" about economics but is rendering his reasoned opinion. It's just an Aoostolic Exhortation. (Popes have opinions, too, just like the rest of us.)

Hello again, tom:

Quote:

economics is not an issue where 'infallibility applies.

Hmmm.. I didn't know you had that much latitude.

excon

yes ,as WG said ,infallibility is in issues "ex cathedra"
"We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable." (Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv )

from our friends at Wikipedia --

Regarding historical papal documents, Catholic theologian and church historian Klaus Schatz made a thorough study, published in 1985, that identified the following list of ex cathedra documents (see Creative Fidelity: Weighing and Interpreting Documents of the Magisterium, by Francis A. Sullivan, chapter 6):

"Tome to Flavian", Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just after death rather than only just prior to final judgment;[70]
occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception;
Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.

I am not sure that's correct . I thought that there were only 2 ... and both were about Mary ..... her Immaculate Conception, and her Assumption .
'Professio fidei' (Profession of Faith) issued by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger documented some of the beliefs that were considered infallible by the church . They involve church teachings on Jesus, Mary, sin ,grace, the sacraments, the primacy of the pope, and the doctrinal formulations of the ancient creeds.
For what it's worth ,I consider 'Humanae Vitae '(Human Life) an infallible teaching .

shouldn't this thead be moved to religious discussions

It's discussion that still has to do with what Limprod said. It wasn't ex cathedra but just a friendly homily. Now if we started talking about holiday (not Christmas) shopping and little black-and-white puppies...that would be off topic. This hasn't been so far.

The Current Events board IS under Member Discussions (I think, will check) ***ADDED Just checked -- yup, it is.

so is the religious discussions board

Limprod can't talk about religious stuff and disagree with the pope? -- and we can't discuss it?

OMG!! Let the wingers follow Limprod and Sarah, and Ted. More room for me in heaven.

Hello again,

I LOVE that everybody calls him Limprod.. That's a win for me.

excon

What would you call a fat dope addict that talks crazy all the time and been married 4 times and made no kids? Some call him a leader, I don't! They are as loony as he is.

Hasn't he called himself an entertainer? -- or someone did.

Should we make a list of all the names he has been called? And who called them? Naw, that's pointless since they would only trot out the Bush list.

Even from the right his list is long.

A lot of people misunderstand Catholic teaching and it is annoying when these public personalities blather on about the faith.

On abortion, the church recognizes the scientific fact that embryos and fetuses at an elemental level are human in nature. We do not believe we have the right to take a life, but recognize some no-win dilemmas happen in life, such as having to kill someone to stop them from killing others. For this reason we don't support abortion. We don't accept it is a right to choose because we do not believe humans have a right to make decisions to end human life. We do not support euthanasia, suicide or death penalties either. Exceptions are permitted... the morning after pill for rape and incest, early delivery when the mother's life is at risk, removal of the tube for a tubal pregnancy. These are the primary exceptions most people consider just and appropriate.

Papal infallibility is limited to a belief the Pope will not fail in continuing the church. It is not a Catholic belief that popes are perfect. Popes are human and prone to sin like all of us.

As for the economy, this is a realm of opinion, not doctrine. Doctrine requires Catholics to care for the poor but the Popes comments are only his personal advice on how that might happen. I disagree with him about capitalism, and am still in good stead with the church.

What is important to understand is that there are no consequences on earth for disagreeing with the church as a catholic except possibly a very rare denial of communion or nearly unheard-of excommunication. It is not a bully but a haven for sinners who wish to he better people, learn, improve, seek forgiveness and live in peace. I wish the Catholic bashers would learn the faith before they speak as experts about it. Ugh.

dontknownuthin ......well said !!

still say it belongs in religious discussions

This isn't about religion Clete, its about a loud mouth right wing clown talking crap about anybody he choses, and nobody standing up to the buffoon no matter what he says. A true bully!

It's about a loud motuth right wing crap artist talking about religion, what part of the Pope and catholic doctrine being about religion do you not get?

Try to keep up Clete, limprod's attack on the pope is just the latest in a long line of bad mouthing. I do mean LONG.

Catholicism today is a political hot button. Liberals will cry over how beautiful it is when a Buddhist monk carries a spider outside instead of killing it. They will arduously defend Muslims from criticism in the US. They will weep over the persecution of the Jews. Then they will spit hate speech at Catholics and defend this president in denying us religious liberty. Now the right wing is getting in on the Catholic bashing, too. It is very much a matter of whether we value this country or not. News flash... we believe in different deities but live by the same morals across the major faith traditions.

Want free speech? Stop campaigning to take Fox News off the air. Want freedom of religion? Don't let your president force Catholic institutions to provide birth control and abortion services through insurance policies. Want a democracy? Well that relies on both rights and responsibilities... start fighting for the part where people must be responsible. Against bullying? Stop bullying Catholics or whatever other group has a different world view than you. A true advocate if democracy fights for the rights of the people they do not agree with. Because that's the test, isn't it? It's hardly liberty if we only allow it to those who are of our same mind.

There is a real mob mentality today that defies logic or reason. For example, every major religion is against abortion and premarital sex and gay marriage but only Catholics are criticized and called hateful names for these beliefs.

This type of oblivious crowd mentality and blind love for an ineffective leader is the exact dynamic that has allowed the worst regimes to come to power. I wish people would wake up and realize this country is losing it's soul.

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I wish people would wake up and realize this country is losing it's soul.

You are implying this didn't happen years ago. I would say it lost it's soul when it used the atom bomb, it's as far back as that. After that event everything changed, the world went mad, and that's not a pun.

Apparently Limbaugh isn't allowed to have an opinion.

Quote:

Catholicism today is a political hot button. Liberals will cry over how beautiful it is when a Buddhist monk carries a spider outside instead of killing it. They will arduously defend Muslims from criticism in the US. They will weep over the persecution of the Jews. Then they will spit hate speech at Catholics and defend this president in denying us religious liberty. Now the right wing is getting in on the Catholic bashing, too. It is very much a matter of whether we value this country or not. News flash... we believe in different deities but live by the same morals across the major faith traditions.

Want free speech? Stop campaigning to take Fox News off the air. Want freedom of religion? Don't let your president force Catholic institutions to provide birth control and abortion services through insurance policies. Want a democracy? Well that relies on both rights and responsibilities... start fighting for the part where people must be responsible. Against bullying? Stop bullying Catholics or whatever other group has a different world view than you. A true advocate if democracy fights for the rights of the people they do not agree with. Because that's the test, isn't it? It's hardly liberty if we only allow it to those who are of our same mind.

There is a real mob mentality today that defies logic or reason. For example, every major religion is against abortion and premarital sex and gay marriage but only Catholics are criticized and called hateful names for these beliefs.

This type of oblivious crowd mentality and blind love for an ineffective leader is the exact dynamic that has allowed the worst regimes to come to power. I wish people would wake up and realize this country is losing it's soul.

Not to mention the fact that bashing and ridiculing Catholics in American popular culture ,especially clergy and nuns, evidently is still pc and as American as apple pie .

I don't know about the Catholic bashing, I think we all get bashed when we run across people who disagree with us. It's the nature of the beast. I think that's the hardest part of governing such a diverse nation. I don't think we are losing our souls when we strive to make fair laws that all must abide by, as in a democracy no group no matter their personal leanings should be above the law. That's how we get to an equal, and fair society for all, not just a few, not just a group.

That when we will find our soul and work together to resolve our difference for the good of us all. It's a challenge but a goal to strive for. Not everyone believes this president is evil and devicive and two elections bear that out.

I just don't believe taking the away rights of taxpaying workers to buy insurance products because of individual religious beliefs is fair, and exemption to allow those workers to deal directly with the insurance companies is more than fair. I always find it interesting when people stand so firmly about exercising their rights, and feel it above the rights of others.

You may have to explain why it's okay for workers rights to be trampled on while you practice your own. Is there no FAIR ground to be on?

Life isn't fair, get over it.

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Apparently Limbaugh isn't allowed to have an opinion.

Nobody has stopped him from spewing his crap Speech, and no one should be stopped from calling it crap. Or boycotting his sponsors for supporting his crap. That's my opinion.

Hello again, Steve:

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Apparently Limbaugh isn't allowed to have an opinion.

You ALWAYS make this mistake.. You think because I don't like what he SAYS means that I don't think he has the right to say it. I dunno how you do that.

excon

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I don't know about the Catholic bashing, I think we all get bashed when we run across people who disagree with us. It's the nature of the beast.

No it isn't Catholic priests and nuns get mocked in popular culture .You know it and I know it .

No more than others, and lets agree that some Catholic doctrines are greatly disagreed on. Not just doctrines but actions and policies. But I can respect the new pope greatly, and think he will change the perceptions of many, both Catholics, and non Catholics, in very favorable way.

I felt deeply offended by Limprod's commentary. This was by far his worse in my own opinion, and he has many.

nah ,if clerics of other faiths were mocked the way Catholic clerics are in popular culture there would be riots.

When there are scandals you can expect to be mocked, and criticized. We all have our dark moments.