To his credit Obama has called for tougher standards in public education, although I'm admittedly unfamiliar with his Common Core standards so I can't comment on that. New York was among the first to jump on the Common Core bandwagon and the first results are in.

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Test Scores Sink as New York Adopts Tougher Benchmarks

The number of New York students passing state reading and math exams dropped drastically this year, education officials reported on Wednesday, unsettling parents, principals and teachers and posing new challenges to a national effort to toughen academic standards.

In New York City, 26 percent of students in third through eighth grade passed the tests in English, and 30 percent passed in math, according to the New York State Education Department.

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I actually had to do a double take on that, um less than a third of 3-8 grade NYC students could pass math and English? Are you kidding me? And then I read this...

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The exams were some of the first in the nation to be aligned with a more rigorous set of standards known as the Common Core, which emphasize deep analysis and creative problem-solving over short answers and memorization. Last year, under an easier test, 47 percent of city students passed in English, and 60 percent in math.

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Well, that's comforting - about half can pass with easier standards. Really?

Apparently no one was too eager to share the results.

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City and state officials spent months trying to steel the public for the grim figures.

But when the results were released, many educators responded with shock that their students measured up so poorly against the new yardsticks of achievement.

Chrystina Russell, principal of Global Technology Preparatory in East Harlem, said she did not know what she would tell parents, who will receive scores for their children in late August. At her middle school, which serves a large population of students from poor families, 7 percent of students were rated proficient in English, and 10 percent in math. Last year, those numbers were 33 percent and 46 percent, respectively.

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I'm stunned. I knew public education was a joke but that's pathetic, and yes I lay most of the blame on the stranglehold liberals have on public education - you have reaped what you've sown. I am appalled especially that this is how the poor are being served in the education system.

But give me your canned talking points anyway about how it's all Republican's fault, if we'd only spend a gazillion dollars more and quit siphoning off dollars to send poor kids to schools that don't suck, blah, blah, blah.

No wonder Matt Damon is sending his kids to private school.

I wouldn't mind giving some talking points, but I would rather leave out the, "blah,blah,blah". Strange coming from a guy who likes to have an honest discussion about issues.

I think that's the point of being snarky about predictable answers, give us something besides DNC talking points, like honesty.

Forget most of the standardized testing and bring back

1. Palmer Method of Penmanship
2. memorizing times tables
3. Roman numerals to 1,000
4. recess twice a day
5. half-hour lunch with teacher (and aides?) in the room -- one adult reading a chapter a day from an age-appropriate classic while the students eat
6. geography
7. art and music appreciation with practical application
8. memorization of poetry, etc.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I think that's the point of being snarky about predictable answers, give us something besides DNC talking points, like honesty.

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My answers generally are not predictable.

You usually complain when someone gets snarky. From you original posting I get the feeling you are going to give me your usual talking points on education. I am happy to have a honest conservation so long as we leave out the blah blah stuff.

Well speech you want an honest answer, I think the point of education has been lost in much of the western world. There is too much reliance on technology and not enough on conveying basic skills

We've gone back to basic skills and having students work on solving problems from the beginning to an end in common core. It's much needed in various parts of the country. It keeps teachers accountable.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Forget most of the standardized testing and bring back

1. Palmer Method of Penmanship
2. memorizing times tables
3. Roman numerals to 1,000
4. recess twice a day
5. half-hour lunch with teacher (and aides?) in the room -- one adult reading a chapter a day from an age-appropriate classic while the students eat
6. geography
7. art and music appreciation with practical application
8. memorization of poetry, etc.

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That's a start. :)

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Originally Posted by Tuttyd

My answers generally are not predictable.

You usually complain when someone gets snarky. From you original posting I get the feeling you are going to give me your usual talking points on education. I am happy to have a honest conservation so long as we leave out the blah blah stuff.

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Trust me Tut, I know you're answers are unpredictable and I like that about you. The blah blah blah is directed at someone else and I love snark, I employ it often. It's the self- righteous condescending snobbery coupled with repetitive bullsh*t I don't care for.

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Originally Posted by teacherjenn4

We've gone back to basic skills and having students work on solving problems from the beginning to an end in common core. It's much needed in various parts of the country. It keeps teachers accountable.

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I'm all for that, I've documented too many times how too many teachers and their unions are more concerned for themselves than the children... while claiming "it's for the children." Let's have some accountability again and give parents a choice.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I'm all for that, I've documented too many times how too many teachers and their unions are more concerned for themselves than the children...while claiming "it's for the children." Let's have some accountability again and give parents a choice.

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Parents do have a choice in many areas. My school is a school of choice. It has the highest test scores and students are chosen by lottery. It's an amazing place to work. :)

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Originally Posted by teacherjenn4

Parents do have a choice in many areas. My school is a school of choice. It has the highest test scores and students are chosen by lottery. It's an amazing place to work. :)

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Awesome, now if we can end the attack against choice in other places.

Are there enough good schools where EVERY child has a choice? What happens to the ones that don't win the lottery?

Looking at math and reading scores, America is still behind many other nations on education. This years lists does not even have the US in the top 10 of nations at 8th grade or high school level.

When we lived in Atlanta, our friend who is on the school board there even told us, if we had any other choice, not to send our child to the public school, that they were on the school board of.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Are there enough good schools where EVERY child has a choice? What happens to the ones that don't win the lottery?

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Our district has the highest scores out of every district within hundreds of miles. All of our schools are excellent--my school is a model being watched by all of California. We get lots of visitors.

I wouldn't worry you are just above the PISA averages on OECD measures. It isn't a contest some nations place a higher value on education

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Are there enough good schools where EVERY child has a choice? What happens to the ones that don't win the lottery?

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The answer to your question is 'of course not ' . Public education has been in a long period of rut and deterioration .But unlike your canned 'throw money at the problem' solutions ,school choice is the way out. It forces competition among the schools which in turn compels schools to perform better . You should be applauding that there are demonstrated proven results when choice is offered. But of course ,like a true 'progressive' ,the only choice you like is the choice to kill your baby.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

the answer to your question is 'of course not ' . Public education has been in a long period of rut and deterioration .But unlike your canned 'throw money at the problem' solutions ,school choice is the way out. It forces competition among the schools which in turn compels schools to perform better . You should be applauding that there are demonstrated proven results when choice is offered. But of course ,like a true 'progressive' ,the only choice you like is the choice to kill your baby.

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Tom, this is the same tired old rhetoric. It is the same old. "one solution fits all" approach. Your canned "choice" is no way out of the problems that have been specifically canvassed in this thread.

Competition is great for a sport or business but kids learning to compete in a tough world need skills and understanding that goes beyond just marketing them for private profit. While there are many private educational institutes that perform well there are many that do not.

My question was specifically what happens to the kids that lose the lottery and even beyond that what's left for those that have PUBLIC funds siphoned from PUBLIC schools to private schools that well off parents get subsidized for there child's education. Many urban cities are caught up in this shift of funds from public poor to private well to do so I think asking what happens when all the slots are filled and a voucher means nothing.

My point is while more may have choices, all will not. A majority will not. And then we have stories like this,

Bennett resigns over Ind. school grade change scandal

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On the way out, Bennett said that he did the right thing last year when he changed the grade given to the Christel House Academy from a "C" to an "A." Nevertheless, he's out of a job and Indiana Gov. Mike Pence on Thursday called for a thorough review of the state's grading system.

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I would hate to think our kids can become leverage for politically connected types to et federal money in there pockets. Until all the data is in though so we can see if indeed private schools are the answer I remain skeptical if this is the total answer.

Charter Schools vs. Traditional Public Schools: Which One is Under-Performing? | PublicSchoolReview.com

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As CREDO, a national organization devoted to charter school research reveals, the Stanford analysts compared reading and math state-based standardized test scores between charter school vs. public school students in 15 states, as well as scores in the District of Columbia. In fact, in further evaluating the data, experts found that 37 percent of charter schools posted improvements in math scores; however, these improvement rates were significantly below the improvement rates of students in the public school classrooms. Furthermore, 46 percent of charter schools experienced math improvements that were "statistically indistinguishable" from the average improvement rates shown by public school students.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Are there enough good schools where EVERY child has a choice? What happens to the ones that don't win the lottery?

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And where they do exist why deny them?

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Tom, this is the same tired old rhetoric. It is the same old. "one solution fits all" approach. Your canned "choice" is no way out of the problems that have been specifically canvassed in this thread

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.
Teacherjenn is in the system and appears to disagree with you. But when you talk of "one solution fits all" approaches why don't you also speak of the demonstrably failed public school system that we have had since at least the 1960s ? The progressive solution is to tax more and throw more money into a failed system. My God ! You could put gold tiles in every school with the money wasted by the administrators of almost every district in the country ! Instead ,many schools are in serious state of disrepair... forget about their primary purpose ;which is to actually educate the kids.
I don't care if you or anyone else considers it tired old rhetoric. When put to the test ,it's worked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

the answer to your question is 'of course not ' . Public education has been in a long period of rut and deterioration .But unlike your canned 'throw money at the problem' solutions ,school choice is the way out. It forces competition among the schools which in turn compels schools to perform better . You should be applauding that there are demonstrated proven results when choice is offered. But of course ,like a true 'progressive' ,the only choice you like is the choice to kill your baby.

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If this method worked you wouldn't have the problem, all the competition does is cause the better teachers to gravitate to the better schools and medocracy reigns everywhere else.. The problem of poor education lies in opportunity and disadvantage and when you don't have opportunity to go to anywhere but the school in the disadvantaged area what do you get, poor self esteem and poor grades. Have you ever wondered why a place like Russia has a better education system than you do, it is because education is valued. Do you remember no child left behind a republican initiative that went nowhere

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The problem of poor education lies in opportunity and disadvantage and when you don't have opportunity to go to anywhere but the school in the disadvantaged area what do you get, poor self esteem and poor grades.

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Duhhh.Why do you think I support choice ? Where poor kids are given vouchers to go to better schools ;their parents have the CHOICE to either send them to the local school ,or to a better school. Bottom line is that the public education system is a relic of the 20th century that needs an influx of innovation. But the libs are stuck in the 60s .

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Do you remember no child left behind a republican initiative that went nowhere

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yes ;and it's failure is why the emperor's system will fail . We don't need a central command system . There is NOTHING in the constitution that gives the Federal Government the power to dictate national standards on the education systems of the nation.

I don't think its factual to lump good and decent performing schools into the same category as really bad ones just as its not fair to lump under preforming private schools in with success stories, but its obvious schools like firehouses, and public work require maintenance and that requires money. That's what makes or breaks any community, and as the school crumbles in disrepair, the whole neighborhood suffers greatly.

We bailout banks and build stadiums, but can't fix a leaky gym roof. Priorities are a bit screwed up I'd say. And it shows what kind of nation we have become. Keep the rhetoric, I would rather have results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

We bailout banks and build stadiums, but can't fix a leaky gym roof. Priorities are a bit screwed up I'd say. And it shows what kind of nation we have become. Keep the rhetoric, I would rather have results.

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I gave you results and they speak for themselves.

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In New York City, 26 percent of students in third through eighth grade passed the tests in English, and 30 percent passed in math, according to the New York State Education Department.

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Quote:

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Last year, under an easier test, 47 percent of city students passed in English, and 60 percent in math.

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Quote:

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Chrystina Russell, principal of Global Technology Preparatory in East Harlem, said she did not know what she would tell parents, who will receive scores for their children in late August. At her middle school, which serves a large population of students from poor families, 7 percent of students were rated proficient in English, and 10 percent in math. Last year, those numbers were 33 percent and 46 percent, respectively.

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Are aiming low enough yet?

You see ,Tal would reward such performance with more money. Try even firing a teacher with tenure who's classes perform as badly. Good luck with that . Here in NY they can't even can pervert predatory teachers .

My state fights school vouchers and Fair tax. That's their backward thinking !

The results say that raising the bar for everyone makes performance go down, but that's not a bad thing at all in my view. Keep raising the bar and the results go up in time. Then we can compete with the higher standards that make us better. Making the numbers look good with shams for standards serve no one well in the long run.

And yes, I believe in fixing holes in the roof of the gym, a no brainer in my mind. I fail to see the point in compromising ciricculum safety AND maintenance and still call it a school. It's not. It's a sham.

Raising the bar a bad thing? Great excuse for dumbing down everyone!

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Raising the bar a bad thing? Great excuse for dumbing down everyone!

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Speech said it was bad, I said it was good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Raising the bar a bad thing? Great excuse for dumbing down everyone!

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Always keep the bar high -- and raise it even higher. Kids are competitive and want to succeed. I leaned fast as a new teacher, do not put students in various levels of reading groups. The poor readers pull down each other, and they all know instantly, no matter what you call the groups, that the "blue" or "elephant" group contains the poor readers.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Speech said it was bad, I said it was good.

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Well now that's a total lie.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I gave you results and they speak for themselves.







Are aiming low enough yet?

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Okay maybe I misunderstood.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Okay maybe I misunderstood.

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Thanks buddy, that's better.

These are the people who run the NY state education system
Misspelled Road Sign Points Way to Popular "Jonse" Beach | NBC New York

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Originally Posted by tomder55

.
teacherjenn is in the system and appears to disagree with you. But when you talk of "one solution fits all" approaches why don't you also speak of the demonstrably failed public school system that we have had since at least the 1960s ? The progressive solution is to tax more and throw more money into a failed system. My God ! you could put gold tiles in every school with the money wasted by the administrators of almost every district in the country ! Instead ,many schools are in serious state of disrepair .....forget about their primary purpose ;which is to actually educate the kids.
I don't care if you or anyone else considers it tired old rhetoric. When put to the test ,it's worked.

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I would say that Teacher Jenn actually agrees with me. As far as I can tell she is saying that what is needed is a common core curriculum to lift standards. In other words, a more towards a national curriculum.

I am not saying that choice in education is a bad thing per se. What I have said, and will continue to say is that choice is a bad thing when it comes to lifting standards in the basics. I think it is pretty obvious that educational relativism hasn't worked for you. In this respect "choice" has had the opposite effect. You are now competing in the global market place.

It is not the private schools the home schools that are failing our children.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

It is not the private schools the home schools that are failing our children.

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Your whole system is failing you and it has nothing to do with public versus private.
Look at your universities. You have some of the best in the world and some of the worst in the world and this has nothing to do with private versus public.

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Originally Posted by Tuttyd

Your whole system is failing you and it has nothing to do with public versus private.
Look at your universities. You have some of the best in the world and some of the worst in the world and this has nothing to do with private versus public.

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Sure it does, private schools educate and public schools don't. College is a whole other subject, though many are plagued by the same problems on a greater scale and the left's answer is to double down on both. It's not an issue of standards, it's an issue of ideology.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

.
teacherjenn is in the system and appears to disagree with you. But when you talk of "one solution fits all" approaches why don't you also speak of the demonstrably failed public school system that we have had since at least the 1960s ? The progressive solution is to tax more and throw more money into a failed system. My God ! you could put gold tiles in every school with the money wasted by the administrators of almost every district in the country ! Instead ,many schools are in serious state of disrepair .....forget about their primary purpose ;which is to actually educate the kids.
I don't care if you or anyone else considers it tired old rhetoric. When put to the test ,it's worked.

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Yes, I am in the system. Our district is not wealthy by any means, but we took a hard look at the problems in education. We visited schools in fancy areas with all the resources present. Their test scores weren't much better than ours. We came up with a plan: build a new school staffed by teachers tired of mediocrity. We base every lesson on teaching our students to problem solve and we steer them toward careers in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. Next, we allowed students for all over the valley (population 200,000+) to apply, even if they were not in our enrollment area. It worked! We had a wait list of hundreds for the inaugural year and even more this year. If parents are willing to drive their children and purchase uniforms, this is a fantastic opportunity for a public school. We've had visits from all over the state with superintendents and other school groups. Our test scores just arrived yesterday, and I imagine they will be 100 points higher at this school. It is amazing and it shows that public education can work.