Ask Me Help Desk - Obama: religious schools cause division

Obama: religious schools cause division

Our president made a startling, but unsurprising claim at a town hall meeting in Belfast on Friday.

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The US President has made an alarming call for an end to Catholic education in Northern Ireland in spite of the fact that Archbishop Gerhard Müller told Scots that Catholic education was 'a critical component of the Church.’

President Barack Obama (above), repeated the oft disproved claim that Catholic education increases division in front of an audience of 2000 young people, including many Catholics, at Belfast’s Waterfront hall when he arrived in the country this morning.

“If towns remain divided—if Catholics have their schools and buildings and Protestants have theirs, if we can’t see ourselves in one another and fear or resentment are allowed to harden—that too encourages division and discourages cooperation,” the US president said.

The US politician made the unfounded claim despite a top Vatican official spelling out the undeniable good done by Catholic education in a speech in Glasgow on Saturday and in his homily at Mass on Friday.

I guess he doesn't realize The Troubles wasn't really a religious conflict but what the heck, never waste an opportunity - much like using the contraception mandate in Obamacare to redefine the church in the U.S. in a brazen attempt to keep the church confined within the walls of a building.

So do you agree with Obama or not and why?

Exit question from Fr. Z:

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Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a foreign visit to a Islamic nation where he told people on his arrival that they shouldn’t have madrasas. Can you?

Did he when visiting, say, Israel, say “You Jews shouldn’t have synagogue schools and you muslims shouldn’t have mosque schools.” I can’t remember. Did he?

He isn't saying religious schools are bad. He's saying it's bad "if we can’t see ourselves in one another and fear or resentment are allowed to harden."

Wow, that's some shoddy reporting. That's not at all what Obama said.

Wow, the level of denial amongst you people is astounding. It was quite clear to me and obviously to the Catholics in Northern Ireland what the meaning was.

"if Catholics have their schools and buildings and Protestants have theirs... that too encourages division and discourages cooperation."

Now, the claim in the OP is according to Obama, "religious schools cause division."

My question was do you agree with Obama or not and why? Or did he not really say religious schools cause division? If you don't care to engage in a discussion then please, don't bother.

The emperor has Catholics in the cross hairs because they dare to demand their 1st amendments rights. He don't take kindly to those who oppose him (just look at how far the Obots went to take out the TP is 2012) . That he chose school children for his vitriol is despicable

You guys are cherry picking. It's like if I said, "Having sex is not a good idea for young teens," and you quote me as saying, "Having sex is not a good idea."

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You guys are cherry picking. It's like if I said, "Having sex is not a good idea for young teens," and you quote me as saying, "Having sex is not a good idea."

I take it that means you don't want to engage in discussion.

Regardless of your issues with the source - I mean geez the story had to come from somewhere since the American media ignored it - what I said was accurate.

But since you won't respond to that part you tell me what those kids were supposed to come away with after being told "we need you to get this right" to "set an example for those who seek a peace of their own" and then told having separate religious schools "encourages division" and "discourages cooperation".

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I take it that means you don't want to engage in discussion.

Are you familiar with the history of Northern Ireland and how politics and religion are so intertwined -- Protestant unionist communities vs. Catholic nationalist communities? The historical situation should be our starting point to clarify why President Obama said what he did.

Discussion only if it is fair and reasonable, without misquoting people. So far it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Are you familiar with the history of Northern Ireland and how politics and religion are so intertwined -- Protestant unionist communities vs. Catholic nationalist communities? The historical situation should be our starting point to clarify why President Obama said what he did.

Discussion only if it is fair and reasonable, without misquoting people. So far it isn't.

For a librarian you sure can't recognize plain English. No one has been misquoted and my personal representation and question are entirely accurate. If you don't want to discuss it why the hell are you here? You're acting just like NK, and that's not a compliment.

Text is here..
Obama?s Speech in Belfast to Youth of Northern Ireland | IIP Digital

Nothing distorted . He equated Catholic Schools with segregation . And no ;he would never equate a madrassa or a Yeshiva with segregated education.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

text is here ..
Obama?s Speech in Belfast to Youth of Northern Ireland | IIP Digital

Nothing distorted . He equated Catholic Schools with segregation . And no ;he would never equate a madrassa or a Yeshiva with segregated education.

I read it. Where oh where did you get that he equated Catholic schools with segregation?

It's all in one paragraph... not all that hard..

Because issues like segregated schools and housing, lack of jobs and opportunity -- symbols of history that are a source of pride for some and pain for others -- these are not tangential to peace; they're essential to it. If towns remain divided -- if Catholics have their schools and buildings, and Protestants have theirs -- if we can't see ourselves in one another, if fear or resentment are allowed to harden, that encourages division. It discourages cooperation.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

it's all in one paragraph ... not all that hard ..

Because issues like segregated schools and housing, lack of jobs and opportunity -- symbols of history that are a source of pride for some and pain for others -- these are not tangential to peace; they’re essential to it. If towns remain divided -- if Catholics have their schools and buildings, and Protestants have theirs -- if we can’t see ourselves in one another, if fear or resentment are allowed to harden, that encourages division. It discourages cooperation.

Good grief, Tom! Do you know the political-religious history of this country? You are definitely cherrypicking.

You are asking an American of Irish Catholic descent if he knows the history of Ireland ? The truth is that it would not have been nearly the issue it was over the decades if it wasn't for British meddling .

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

For a librarian you sure can't recognize plain English. No one has been misquoted and my personal representation and question are entirely accurate. If you don't want to discuss it why the hell are you here? You're acting just like NK, and that's not a compliment.

And you are lifting bits and pieces out of context to prove your (pathetic) point.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

you are asking an American of Irish Catholic descent if he knows the history of Ireland ? The truth is that it would not have been nearly the issue it was over the decades if it wasn't for British meddling .

Okay, now tell us about the intertwining of the religious and political factions, and how they have worked against peace in that country.

The answer was it was NOT a religious problem . Ireland voted to break from England . So England carved out another nation in what became Northern Ireland that was majority Protestant . Then the Brits decided to enforce the division militarily . The split was nationalists and unionists . Most nationalists were/are Catholics and most unionists were/are Protestants that is true. But the split was Never about religion.

Edit... it is an abusrd insult to say that religious education contributes to the problem .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Most nationalists were/are Catholics and most unionists were/are Protestants that is true. But the split was Never about religion.

The religious differences are implicit, are all bound up, in the political differences.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The religious differences are implicit in the political differences.

See my edit

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Originally Posted by tomder55

see my edit

Obama didn't say that "religious education contributes to the problem."

***ADDED IF we allow religion to tear us apart. IF we allow politics to tear us apart. "IF we can't see ourselves in one another, IF fear or resentment are allowed to harden, that encourages division. It discourages cooperation."

No he suggested that segregated religious education contributed to the problem .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

no he suggested that segregated religious education contributed to the problem .

Historically, religious differences contributed to the political problems because politics and religion were so intertwined. That is changing, and he encouraged the young people of that country to keep that change alive and continuing. That doesn't mean there can't be Catholic and Protestant education.

The religious leaders of Ireland know what he meant . To the Obamas of the world ,if it isn't secular state run education it isn't legit.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And you are lifting bits and pieces out of context to prove your (pathetic) point.

Repeating the same lie over and over doesn't make it any more true, I distorted nothing, I misquoted nothing, and the context was perfectly clear. Again, if you don't want to have this discussion why the hell are you here? Is it also your goal on this board to antagonize me for some pathetic reason?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Repeating the same lie over and over doesn't make it any more true, I distorted nothing, I misquoted nothing, and the context was perfectly clear.

Physician, heal thyself.

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Again, if you don't want to have this discussion why the hell are you here? Is it also your goal on this board to antagonize me for some pathetic reason?

You can chose to feel antagonized, or you can have an honest discussion.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Physician, heal thyself.

You can chose to feel antagonized, or you can have an honest discussion.

Been trying to have an honest discussion from the start. It's you calling, a Catholic newspaper, a priest and a simple question of "do you agree with Obama or not" dishonest and refusing to speak to the subject of the post. So again, if you don't want to discuss the subject matter why the hell are you here?

Catholicism has plenty of things to be criticized for these days, but Catholic education isn't one of them. On the contrary, Catholic schools remain one of the wonders of the world of education.

Also, there's no such thing as "Protestant" schools in Northern Ireland, so it's hard to understand what Obama is referring to. A case of bad speech-writing, let's hope, since he is clearly dissing Catholic schools (and non-existent Protestant ones).

According to Wikipedia --

Education

Education in Northern Ireland is heavily segregated. Most state schools in Northern Ireland are predominantly Protestant, while the majority of Catholic children attend schools maintained by the Catholic Church. In all, 90 per cent of children in Northern Ireland still go to separate faith schools. The consequence is, as one commentator has put it, that "the overwhelming majority of Ulster's children can go from four to 18 without having a serious conversation with a member of a rival creed." The prevalence of segregated education has been cited as a major factor in maintaining endogamy (marriage within one's own group). However, the Integrated Education movement has sought to reverse this trend by establishing non-denominational schools such as the Portadown Integrated Primary. Such schools are, however, still the exception to the general trend of segregated education. Integrated schools in Northern Ireland have been established through the voluntary efforts of parents. The churches have not been involved in the development of integrated education.

Segregation in Northern Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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From Northern Ireland teaches us the dangers of segregated schools | David Pavett | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

If there is one area of the UK that knows a thing or two about segregated religious education it is Northern Ireland. The great majority of schools there are run by either Protestants or Catholics. Children are divided into these denominational institutions from the age of five. Given that the religious communities also tend to live in Catholic and Protestant areas the possibilities for the generation and maintenance of inter-communal misunderstanding and even violence are clear. This is not a matter of speculation but one of bitter experience.

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From CAIN: Background Information on Northern Ireland Society - Education

Basically, all schools in Northern Ireland can be divided into 5 categories
(i) Controlled Schools: These are essentially Protestant schools - they are owned by the Education and Library boards, although they are mostly controlled by their Boards of Governors. The Protestant churches are represented on the Board of Governors.
(ii) Catholic Maintained Schools: These are essentially Catholic schools - they are owned by the Catholic Church but are managed by a Board of Governors. The Education and Library Boards provide some financial assistance, by financing recurrent costs and the employment of non-teaching staff.
(iii) Other Maintained: These are essentially Protestant schools, in that they are owned by the Protestant church and managed by a Board of Governors. Like the Catholic maintained schools, they received funding from the Education and Library Boards for the recurrent costs.
(iv) Voluntary Grammar: These schools are owned by school trustees and managed by a Board of Governors.
(v) Grant Maintained Integrated Schools: These are essentially mixed schools, for Catholic and Protestant children. They are partially owned by trustees and managed by a Board of Governors, with their recurrent costs being met by the Department of Education.

The majority of Protestant children in Northern Ireland attend state controlled schools, whilst the majority of Catholic children attend Catholic maintained schools. These are essentially Protestant and Catholic schools.

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Catholicism has plenty of things to be criticized for these days, but Catholic education isn't one of them. On the contrary, Catholic schools remain one of the wonders of the world of education.

Also, there's no such thing as "Protestant" schools in Northern Ireland, so it's hard to understand what Obama is referring to. A case of bad speech-writing, let's hope, since he is clearly dissing Catholic schools (and non-existent Protestant ones).

Absolutely, but private education is anathema to Obama - especially religious schools - because they stand in the way of the collectivist, progressive agenda. We can't have people being taught to think outside of the public education system or relying on something other than the government.

He felt a need to rehearse that screed in Northern Ireland. Here he has the force of the government behind him to try and reign in us "bitter clingers."

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Absolutely, but private education is anathema to Obama - especially religious schools

His own daughters attend Sidwell Friends School in Washington, D.C. Private. Quaker.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The majority of Protestant children in Northern Ireland attend state controlled schools, whilst the majority of Catholic children attend Catholic maintained schools.[/I]

"State controlled" vs. "Catholic maintained". You could say public (state controlled) schools in America are Protestant, using the same reasoning. In any case, the schools are not Protestant in the same sense that the Catholic ones are Catholic.

But I will concede the point. His remark was still out of order since it comes across as a general slam on Catholic education.

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Originally Posted by Athos

His remark was still out of order since it comes across as a general slam on Catholic education.

Please quote his slam.

It's been quoted. See the bold part in the original question.

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Originally Posted by Athos

It's been quoted. See the bold part in the original question.

How is that a slam?

Catholic schools divide towns, he says.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Catholic schools divide towns, he says.

That's not what he said.

***ADDED*** He's speaking to the history of the country and its political and religious division: "If towns remain divided -- if Catholics have their schools and buildings, and Protestants have theirs -- if we can't see ourselves in one another, if fear or resentment are allowed to harden, that encourages division."

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That's not what he said.

***ADDED*** He's speaking to the history of the country and its political and religious division: "If towns remain divided -- if Catholics have their schools and buildings, and Protestants have theirs -- if we can’t see ourselves in one another, if fear or resentment are allowed to harden, that encourages division."

What part of "that encourages division" are you having difficulty understanding? Are you somehow more equipped to interpret the remarks for the Catholics there than they are? Are they too stupid to understand what he really meant or what?

It's pretty darn clear they full well know what he meant from the opening part of the article, "President Barack Obama.. .repeated the oft disproved claim that Catholic education increases division". Sounds to me like they've heard this before, don't need you to interpret and don't take too kindly to it. Who are you to discount their complaint?

“If towns remain divided—if Catholics have their schools and buildings and Protestants have theirs, if we can't see ourselves in one another and fear or resentment are allowed to harden—that too encourages division and discourages cooperation,” the US president said.

Translation, segregation in any form encourages division and discourages cooperation.

It wasn't a slam it was a statement over religious conflicts that have racked the world and still do. The religion doesn't matter, but its telling that its taken as a slam against Catholics by Catholics.

So this whole discussion is how you see what the president said, and you cannot leave out the "IF" and relate it to the segregation part. You don't have to go to Ireland to find segregation, you can go anywhere to see the conflicts it causes directly related to the degree it's practiced.

The point is that Christians segregate themselves and have the same conflicts that Sunnis and Shiites are having now, replete with the same terrorist attacks, and killing of the innocent. The President has clearly taken the side of peaceful co-existence through interaction, and cooperation, and has extolled the youth of both sides to keepit going and build better social bridges of cooperation.

But you can hear what you want to I suppose.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

“If towns remain divided—if Catholics have their schools and buildings and Protestants have theirs, if we can’t see ourselves in one another and fear or resentment are allowed to harden—that too encourages division and discourages cooperation,” the US president said.

Translation, segregation in any form encourages division and discourages cooperation.

It wasn't a slam it was a statement over religious conflicts that have racked the world and still do. The religion doesn't matter, but its telling that its taken as a slam against Catholics by Catholics.

So this whole discussion is how you see what the president said, and you cannot leave out the "IF" and relate it to the segregation part. You don't have to go to Ireland to find segregation, you can go anywhere to see the conflicts it causes directly related to the degree it's practiced.

The point is that Christians segregate themselves and have the same conflicts that Sunnis and Shiites are having now, replete with the same terrorist attacks, and killing of the innocent. The President has clearly taken the side of peaceful co-existence thru interaction, and cooperation, and has extolled the youth of both sides to keepit going nd build better social bridges of cooperation.

But you can hear what you want to I suppose.

Is there something about you and WG that just can't acknowledge how it was perceived by the Catholics there? See my last post, it's very clear and no amount of liberal spin is going to change it.

Does this wanker go around interferring in the internal affairs of any place he sets his foot.

The Irish problems go way back to the Norman conquest and the treatment of the natives, now where have I heard that before, what England did in Ireland was genocide over many centuries and the resentment remains.Omama has forgotten his roots otherwise he wouldn't talk that way to an oppressed people