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Hello:
I'll start. I believe the Constitution.. I don't want ANY public money spent on religion. Am I at war with Christmas?? Nahhh.. I LOVE Christmas.. I just don't want the CITY supporting it.
Yes, it's true. I don't want God mentioned on our money OR in our pledge of allegiance, either. But, let's just deal with Christmas.
excon
Hear hear. Our founding fathers went to church every day, but still knew the 'freedom' of keeping church and state separate. When the heck are they going to take God off paper money? It's not like they don't have a whole department of engravers.
Besides, as the joke goes, trust in God doesn't matter when someone pays in cash.
I think you need to define your statement better. Most christmas scenes involve Santa Claus. I think what your really referring to is is a manger scene. Which is the christian symbol for christmas just as we see at this time of year a menorah taken out and displayed.
To me the definition of separation of church and state is that a church isn't allowed to run the place. But the mere mention of god does not support any real religion. It is a generic term in a supreme being.
Besides all of that the real reason for the season is about the spirit. It is a time for reflection and for giving. Its not really about black Friday sales or parades. It is something you hold in your heart to carry you through the following year.
Which humbug are you Ex
That would be the Humburglar ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Christmas, "Christ-Mass", is a federal holiday. You're paying federal employees to take the day off to celebrate the birth of Christ... or whatever. Get over it.
Hello again, Steve:
My quest is to right the wrongs of the past... Yours is to conserve them... It was WRONG of this country to enslave black people.. It was WRONG of this country to deny women the right to vote. It was WRONG of this country to deny women the right to seek an abortion.
We overturned them all, and we'll overturn a federal holiday based on religion. I will NEVER get over the wrongs of the past that YOU say we should continue, simple because we're already doing it. That's NOT the right attitude to have.
excon
So in other words you're waging a war on Christmas.
Hello again,
Didja hear? O'Reilly says that Christianity is NOT a religion, but a philosophy. I'm a philosopher... I wonder if I can get a tax exemption for that.
If this latest insanity doesn't convince you there's NO war on Christmas, you're just unconvincible.
excon
You'd have to give a link. But like I said you're waging a war on Christmas, you said so. Kind of hard to convince me there's no war on Christmas when you're on the front line to right that "wrong."Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
But while you're at it you better wage one on Thanksgiving, Washington's Birthday (he was a slave owner after all), and especially Columbus Day. If it weren't for him we might never have oppressed the Native Americans. Oh and New Year's Day has all manner of religious history to it as well.
Hello again, Steve:
You may call my quest to separate religion from government a war on Christmas if you wish. I'm used to you calling white things black... But, I'm feeling pretty comfortable here with the founders who wrote the First Amendment. I've heard you screaming about that Amendment, haven't I?
Plus, I don't know if you noticed, but those holidays you mentioned AREN'T religious in nature. And, I suppose if you agree with O'Reilly, Christmas isn't religious either...
Bwa, ha ha ha ha.
excon
Dude, it doesn't get any blacker than your saying "My quest is to right the wrongs of the past...and we'll overturn a federal holiday based on religion." If that isn't a war on Christmas I can't imagine what is.
And yes, Thanksgiving is ENTIRELY based on religion. I imagine even you learned that in school.
There is nothing in our constitution that prohibits God from government, it was always meant to prevent government interference with religion, to prohibit a state church. Now that's a wrong that should be righted, and hopefully will be in part when the contraceptive mandate is overturned.Quote:
The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequalled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle, or the ship; the axe had enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years, with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and voice by the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquility and Union. In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand, and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed. Done at the city of Washington, this third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the independence of the United States the eighty-eighth." Proclamation of President Abraham Lincoln, October 3, 1863.[1]
P.S. O'Reilly was a bonehead on that one.
Hello again, Steve:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where'dya get that? Your church. I read one where Thanksgiving was about THANKS. That's not to say that the Pilgrims WEREN'T religious, and they weren't thanking God... They were.. But, they were ALSO people who DIDN'T like their religion mixed up with their government... That's why Thanksgiving ISN'T a religious holiday. It's an AMERICAN holiday. Truly, if Thanksgiving were Christian holiday, why doesn't the rest of the worlds Christians celebrate it? Dude.
excon
No, from Wikipedia. That was Lincoln's proclamation designating Thanksgiving a national holiday and it has been ever since. Neither Lincoln or I said it was a "Christian" holiday, I said it was entirely based on religion, thanksgiving for God's blessings. But feel free to ascribe some other meaning to this than what he said, "to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens."Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
You can just be thankful for whatever reason, or not, just like you can celebrate the Christ-mass or not and enjoy a day off. But don't spoil it for the rest of us.
I think he quoted Lincoln verbatim.
I think it's actually less a war on Christmas than it is a war on the church, not religion, the church. You lefties don't seem to have a problem bowing to Islam in public life, but I digress.
Some atheist activist in Hawaii managed to get one award-winning high school orchestra's annual benefit holiday concert canceled. 100 percent of the proceeds goes to charity, for the last 4 years that $30,000 has gone to Mercy Ships which provides health care to the poorest of the poor (sorry kids, some Grinch stole your heath care).
The atheist's objection? Some people from New Hope church volunteered to help sell tickets or work on the set. Apparently Christians are no longer allowed to volunteer in public schools no matter the cause or how innocuous.
$30,000 to help the poorest of the poor sacrificed because the church wanted to help. Will this atheist activist make up the loss? Absolutely not I bet. The lesson? Who's going to make up for what the church used to do if the contraceptive mandate stands? You?Quote:
Moanalua High School students in the award-winning orchestra have proudly raised $200,000 over the last 6 years through their annual holiday concert.
These students, who have performed at Carnegie Hall in New York three times, don’t keep the money to buy new instruments, travel abroad or help their school.
Instead, they send $30,000 they raise every year overseas to a well-known charity, Mercy Ships, which is current housing American doctors in Africa on a medical mission. These doctors help the poorest of residents – some who have never seen a doctor – with urgent medical and dental needs.
It is the students’ gift to the world during the holidays and their chance to make difference for others in need.
The seventh annual fundraiser was set for this weekend, and students have been practicing for months to ensure their performance was perfect.
But an atheist activist, who has shown up to protest city hall Christmas tree lighting ceremonies as well as city council hearings and legislative events where there is prayer, has turned up as their Christmas Grinch and put a stop to the kids’ best-laid plans just hours before the show.
Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Residents for Separation of Church and State, wrote a letter to the Department of Education on "Freedom from Religion Foundation" stationary on December 3 demanding state officials stop the concert. He claimed the public high school was in cahoots with New Hope, one of Hawaii’s largest Christian churches.
It’s true that some of the New Hope parishioners volunteered to sell tickets or work on the set. But the concert is run by school staff and features its students, and tickets are sold both on campus and by phone. One hundred percent of the proceeds go to Mercy Ships. Historically, Mercy Ships, which has been the beneficiary of the concert for 4 years, used the $30,000 from Moanalua's concert to get another $30,000 from matching donors.
“People are assuming this is a New Hope event when it is not. They cancelled a high school event,” said Chad Brownstein, a volunteer with the concert, graduate of the school and employee of New Hope.
“For the people at New Hope, this not an issue because they (activists) are not fighting against New Hope. But the students had practiced and rehearsed and were excited to do it.”
Michael W. Perry, Hawaii’s best-known radio talk show host, has been covering the controversy extensively on his morning show on KSSK, a Clear Channel station.
“It is an unfortunate situation in which one person writing one letter to the DOE has disrupted a $30,000 fundraiser going on for 6 years now, and for what reason? He claims the Constitution says there can be no involvement with school and church and there is no such statement in the Constitution,” Perry said.
War on Christmas? Just part of the larger war on the church.
There are arsehole atheist individuals just like there are arsehole christian individuals. Adherence to a group does not give all the members the same qualities.
Ok, so?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
So that guy doesn't prove there's a war on Christmas (that seems to last for a month around here!) or churches. We have some militant dude around here that is a bugger for forcing the bilingualism issue - most people wish he would go away.
He's not alone, he's got ex waging it with him... he's the one that raised the issue and said he was out to right that wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Hello again, Steve:
Nahhh.. I LOVE the church.. I do. I love the architecture. I love the ceremony. I love the holidays. Did I mention that I LOVE Christmas?Quote:
I think it's actually less a war on Christmas than it is a war on the church,
I LOVE that our founders came here to establish a country where they could practice their religion, and not be bothered by anybody... You'll note, that I don't list the church tax exemption anywhere in my list of things that should be reversed. I'm happy with them operating tax free.
My wanting to keep religion OUT of the public square is because I PAY for the public square too. Like our founders, I don't want the public square to BE a church. In fact, they FOUNDED this country on that being so. I have history, the LAW and the Constitution on my side. It really IS just a matter of time.
But when a church, is a church on its OWN property, I LOVE it. I really, really love it. Oh, I don't BELIEVE it. It's hogwash. But, if not for the church, my beloved country would not have been established.
Excon
I actually would prefer they didn't . There is clearly a quid pro quo attached to the exempt status that the church should reject.Quote:
I'm happy with them operating tax free.
And if the public of my little village wants to put up a manger ;or call our decorated tree a ' Christmas Tree' ,why is it the business of someone on the other side of the country ?Quote:
My wanting to keep religion OUT of the public square is because I PAY for the public square too.
Keeping the church out the public square now means forbidding a Christian to take tickets at a benefit concert for a secular charity to provide health care overseas?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
From the sublime to the ridiculous
Hello again, tom:
Because the Constitution covers everybody.. If someone is denied their rights in YOUR town, it affects me in MY town.Quote:
why is it the business of someone on the other side of the country ?
Excon
These guys are intolerant loonies
Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church
Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe, who has sanctified us by His commandments, and has commanded us to kindle the lights of Hanukkah.
Hello again, tom:
I lit mine. Thanks for the prayer.
excon
The issue here is that the Constitution gives the Federal Government the rights to not have a Federal Religion and as changed and accepted now, separate the Federal Government from religion.
The rights of the states and cities are still held ( or should be) and the clause does not effect states directly since states have the free right to hold those rights not given to the federal government
Fr Chuck.. right on !
Hello again,
So, the city and the church should be all wrapped up with each other. Uhhhh, which church would that be?? Can MY church have its own city too? What if the Muslims wanted to BE the church of YOUR city? If I lived in that city, I wouldn't put up with the church taking over my public space. Being the patriot that I am, I'd STOP it.
You think the residents of that city would be happy with a religious war? Really?
excon
After the adoption of the 1st amendment ,many of the states still had official state religions . The last of the original states did not dissestablish until some 44 years later in 1833 .
But that is not the point . The putting up of holiday scenes like a crèche or menorah does not constitute the establishment of a religion. All it really does is recognize the cultural heritage of the people ;and if a community was predominantly Muslim like some communities I would fully expect that they too would recognize their heritage .
If I am a Christian in that Muslim community, would I want my tax dollars being spent to put up a Muslim whatever on public property?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Why not ? Here in NY they constantly use taxpayer's money to do things like celebrate St Patrick's day ;the San Gennaro etc. Now here in bluer than blue NY you would think there would be someone who would get a bug up their butt over the city absorbing that expense. But they recognize the cultural importance of the event .
I remind you Fr Chuck's point... and quote the exact wording of the amendment regarding religion...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
It says nothing about the public square of local communities.
San Gennaro is presented and paid for by Figli di San Gennaro (Children of San Gennaro), a not-for-profit community organization which has produced and operated the Feast since 1996. The St. Pat's Parade et al. is privately funded. So no tax dollars pay for either.
I assure you that the taxpayers on NY pay plenty if nothing else than in police crowd control.
But if you won't take that as evidence ;how about this ?
NYC To Celebrate Chanukah With Lighting Of 32-Foot-Tall Menorah « CBS New York
The menorah is not being lit to make a statement about an endorsement of religion as much as a cultural recognition of a large segment of the population.
menorah, Christmas trees it's all the same, a cultural expression, so what if it is rooted in religion. Every one of the excesses of your former masters you tried to right in the constitution has bitten you on the bum
Imagine if a national manger was displayed on the national mall.
National Menorah set to be lit in Washington for Hanukkah | Reuters
Nah ,no war on Christmas in this country .
It's ridiculous, I don't know about you but we used to have Christmas issue stamps, manger and all, no one worried about it, then we got all PC because of some stupid minority, now the Lord Mayor of Sydney doesn't even want to celebrate Christmas, of course she is Gay and stupid so what else would you expect, you can have a Gay parade but you can't celebrate Christmas, there's equality for you, or perhaps there is another word for it, but I know where we imported the idea from
The constitution says nothing about a private citizen who happens to be a member of a church volunteering to take tickets at a public school event. Even if it's blatantly obvious a church is working with the school, why in the hell should anyone object to church and school working together for charity in a purely secular way?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
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