 |
Hello,
That's it. I want to know how YOU describe liberty. Who should be free? Who shouldn't be? That kind of stuff. Maybe we don't disagree. That would be cool. But, I think, perchance, we do.
I'll start. Sex offenders should be FREE from registration. Non violent drug offenders should FREED from prison. Once off supervision, ALL felons should be allowed to vote. Women's reproductive organs should be FREE from attack. The undocumented should be FREE to live here.
I have more.
excon
I'd put the 'women should be free from attack' in another discussion. That's more of a 'pursuit of happiness.' Won't women be less free from attack if sex offenders aren't registered, and so on. Overlapping freedoms! I would keep this thread to freedom from specific rules.
I agree - let the non-violent drug offenders go.
I partially agree about the sex offenders, even though states are getting better at having more categories, there are still too many men in prison for statutory rape, and countless free but labeled for life.
The undocumented should be free to stay, under certain complicated conditions!
Liberty is a dynamic, ever changing, as we get more population and more socialized. And more socialized we get, because people want EVERYTHING handed to them, even the people who think that it's only the ones on welfare and food stamps. They want their street plowed and sanded every 2 minutes or they will sue the city for running their Mercedes into a pole on an icy street. They want FEMA to pay them to rebuild on the ocean. They want their children to be raised and taught everything from the 3 Rs to ethics, financial responsibility, health care, and sex ed in school rather than all but the first at home.
Etc
Etc
Etc
I don't agree that the undocumented should be sent back. They are here and may have been here for years, established businesses, paid taxes, raised families, have been Americans except for that piece of paper. The INS needs serious overhauling.
I'm all for levels for sex offenders, with some offenses not considered to be in that class.
Maybe we need to train and license couples (married couples?) before they can become parents.
American education has to change, from pre-K up.
Hello joy:
I should have explained better.. I meant their reproductive organs should be free from attack.. >OP edited -WG<Quote:
I'd put the 'women should be free from attack'
In terms of the sex offender registry, in the first place it doesn't work. Every state grades sex offenders differently, and NOBODY administers them properly.. Therefore, a citizen who WANTS to protect themselves from predators, really has no where to reliably check. Besides, it's additional punishment for the offender.. IF an offender is so bad that the public needs to be WARNED about him, he should NEVER be on the streets in the first place.. I'm for letting a guy go FREE after you FREE him.
Excon
Hello again,
While we wait for our resident right wingers, here's what liberty is NOT:
In Kentucky, a homeland security law requires the state’s citizens to acknowledge the security provided by the Almighty God--or risk 12 months in prison.
excon
I'll tell you what liberty is not .If you expect that the government will prevent you from making mistakes, rescue you if you make mistakes and provide for you if you fail, then you do not have liberty or freedom. You are no more free than a slave in chains. A free and liberated person would not expect others to pay for a safety net.
But if they have bailed me out in the past or helped me in some way, I'm willing to provide the safety net when they fall. They helped me pay for college by giving me a loan that I paid back so someone else could be helped through college.
Hello again, tom:
I don't disagree. I'm not in favor of bankruptcy. I DO make exceptions, though, for those who's situation ISN'T their fault. I'm GLAD to provide a safety net for them.Quote:
if you make mistakes and provide for you if you fail, then you do not have liberty or freedom.
For your information, I don't think getting sick is "making a mistake".
Excon
Whether you think government should or should not provide such services ,you should at least admit that the people who live under such a system do not have complete liberty . It could easily be part of what is called the social contract . But it is NOT liberty .
The founders provided a system where the government was granted limited powers . Granting the government more power to provide for things like safety nets ,and security and 'fairness ' comes at the price of liberty as Franklin famously opined .
Of course it's liberty. I offer my money and goods freely to help others, and they do the same for me. That's biblical (note Jesus' Second Greatest Commandment), and it's part of the social contract because we live amongst each other and want to succeed together, to build each other up for the good of all.
Umm no you are not offering freely if you are compelled to do so by the gvt.
Sorry, no. I offer freely. That's why I am not part of the 1%.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
And what of the rest who are compelled ? Do they have liberty ?
Their liberty is to stay in this country and be part of the tribe or to leave and go to a country that thinks like they do.
I don't mind that this question will be asked forever, and I hope it will, because if it stops, I would have to assume that we are all either zombie stepford men and women or are under some totalitarian regime so powerful that we don't argue back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Actually, social contract is very much bound up with the idea of liberty.
One can only exercise individual liberty in a society that has laws to grant rights.
Tut
Actually, social contract is very much bound up with the idea of liberty.Quote:
Their liberty is to stay in this country and be part of the tribe or to leave and go to a country that thinks like they do.
One can only exercise individual liberty in a society that has laws to grant rights.
Agreed... the social contract is a surrender of liberty . That is a given. To me where we have strayed is not in the social contract ,but in our abandonment of the Constititutional restraints.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Tom, this is inaccurate. The Founders were very much aware of the important relationship that existed between social contract and liberty.
Tut
I can't agree with this. The reason is that liberty stands alone. Once you get into the creation of classes with and without rights then you have division. Liberty is not about division. A society can create laws on the consequece of actions without stepping on the rights of anyone. Liberty is at the heart of freedom. It allows a person to choose what they will and do as they please. It doesn't come without responsibility. But to enjoy liberty it has always had a price to pay. Right now in America too many have decided that the price is too high. It is the root of what is screwing up this country. That is why we stand so divided.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUT317
So your against liberty because it represents change to you? You would rather evict legal citizens then chase illegals from your boarders as all comers are welcome here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
With all due respect ,the founders would not recognize the nation today . It is indeed post -Constitutional regarding the constraints they placed on the government . The opening premise that founders used was to limit society's power over each individual. Civil society to them meant protection of individual propery from confiscation for the general welfare.
I'm not evicting anyone. It's their choice to stay or go.Quote:
Originally Posted by califdadof3
I saw this somewhere --
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free;
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless,
Tempest-tossed to me
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
And no where does it say to just come anytime you want. On any boarder immigration must be controlled. If you don't then you may find yourself short of resources and then your stuck with nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I am sure this was there intention, but( as you say) it doesn't seemed to have worked out that way.
However, this does not negate the fact that liberty and social contract are very much interwoven. As I said, the Founders would have understood this idea very well.
Tut
Quote:
Originally Posted by califdadof3
Actually it is all about division. Namely, the distinction between positive and negative liberty.We cannot live in a democratic society without a continual playoff of positive and negative liberty.
It is difficult, if not impossible to create a law without it having some impact one some individual(s) or groups in society. Liberty can never be about individuals doing as they please. Not within a democratic society at least.
"Liberty standing alone" is one of the reasons you are experiencing problems.
Tut
Impicit in the social contract is a surrender of some natural liberty in exchange for legal rights .
Quote:
Originally Posted by TUT317
How is it about division by law? To me there are 2 types of law. One being that which are laws meant to govern a society. And second would be laws meant to rule a society. The later ruling class of laws are those that infringe on liberty. The former are laws in which a socieity can grow.
Example:
Making a law against stealing to me is a law meant for governing a society.
Making a law against speech such as hate speech is a law meant to rule a society. It negates ones liberty.
Liberty is a very precious commodity that requires delicate upkeep. If we are not all mindful it will die.
Hi Tom,Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I think you are saying that in a state of nature men have certain rights prior to there being a organized society. Once society is organized then there is a necessity to give up some of these rights. This would be a type of explanation found in Locke's 'Second Treatise of Civil Government'
I'm not actually 100% sure what you are actually getting at.
Tut
I think we have gotten beyond confiscation of individual property, don't you Tom. The general welfare is a concept that has failed to take root.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Quote:
Originally Posted by califdadof3
Hi Dad,
I didn't actually say that positive and negative liberty was necessarily about division by law.
I am not sure about the distinction you are making between laws that govern a society and laws that rule society. Your example of free speech suggests to me that you are making a distinction between natural rights and the rights granted by organized society. The idea is that because some rights are natural and existed before an organized society, the society has no rights to take them away.
Again, I am not 100% sure as to what you are saying.
Tut
The society makes the rules, it is cost of being under the protection of the society. Sure there is a trade off, I can no longer kill my neighbour when he offends me, but I know society will avenge me if he kills me. You cannot have the dichotomy where you can have the right of individual action but deny that right to others. We have those who proclaim liberty is the right of individual action, unmodified, unconstrained and those who proclaim liberty is what remains when all rights of individual action are extinguished, the truth is somewhere between, and is what is reasonably allowed by society, but it is in flux
Liberty, right of freedom, In the US Constitution, this was written during a time that men still owned slaves. So did the writers of our Constitution men for black people to be "free" if so why did they not pass those laws to free them. Women did not have the right to vote, in most, hold office and had little rights. So where they free. I don't see it.
The issue is that the US is a Republic, not a democracy, The "Liberty" is that of society, not the actual individual. The person or individual is free in only as much as society allows though the morals that are acceptable and the laws placed on them.
Most of the wording comes from English Common Law and goes back to the idea of freedom from the Magna Carta that gave rights to the landowner and the freeman.
The issue as it does with most Old English is that we put modern ideas and meanings on words that when written were far from the meaning we try to give them.
Rewording things has long been a common use to provide or change the prospective. The Communist party, in specific the Fabian movement of it, that believes in change from within, a revolution using a governments own laws, changed its name and even its advertising to be "democratic" not communist many years ago. We see tax go to investment, we see liberal go to progressive.
We now look at liberty, not as a oppression of a society but as a individual person.
.
No I do not . The general welfare is not something the state can grant or guarantee . It can only promote it. Private property likewise is to be secured ;not confiscated to promote the general welfare . Private property is a right that government does not grant .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Yes ,that is how the social contract was defined by Locke We give up some rights to the government in exchange for the security the government can provide ;but natural rights are not surrendered .Quote:
I think you are saying that in a state of nature men have certain rights prior to there being a organized society. Once society is organized then there is a necessity to give up some of these rights. This would be a type of explanation found in Locke's 'Second Treatise of Civil Government'
.Quote:
No I do not . The general welfare is not something the state can grant or guarantee . It can only promote it. Private property likewise is to be secured ;not confiscated to promote the general welfare . Private property is a right that government does not grant
But it is entitled to promote the general welfare and in fact this is a right enhrined in your Constitution, this right existed before it was though prudent to elaborate various other rights
,Quote:
promote the general Welfare
I know you hate the though of government operating in this area, Tom, but it was part of the very ideas that created your country, the general welfare, and idea that was right up there with liberty and pecularly enough tranquility. How much tranquility have you seen lately, has this aspect been forgotten?
Yes, this is the basis of the theory. But in the end it is still a theory regarding the origins of society. Some people accept the theory and others reject it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
It isn't quite that simple when it comes to modern times. Locke did argue that all men are created equal in terms of the rights they naturally have. Locke also wants to say that such rights existed before there was an organized society to grant such rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombder55
Today you will find that this doctrine is widely interpreted as saying that each individual is to be afforded equal treatment when it comes to the law. 'Due process', is an obvious example of how it works. But in the end it is still a balancing act on the part of the legal system.
Tut
The erosion of liberty is easily justified in modern times . At what point do you slip into a soft tyranny in exchange for what are called positive rights ;and who's rights are gored (specifically property rights ) to guarantee the distribution of those positive rights ? And are positive rights God given ,or natural rights... or are they the concoction of those who would create a Hobbesian behemoth to enforce them ?Quote:
It isn't quite that simple when it comes to modern times.
Tell me Tom did those who wrote your constitution and conferred all those rights on you consider the possibility that people would be living cheek to jowl in your over populated cities. Did they envisage the situation where armed gangs roam the streets because of these rights? Did they envisage the situation where the freed slaves would have to fend for themselves? Where the general welfare is ignored because of these rights, of course they didn't
They created a governing document that could adequately address 21st century issues. They created a "Republic ,if you can keep it "(Benjamin Franklin) . We were warned that the system will collapse when the public realizes they can' vote themselves largesse out of the public treasury'. We are fast approaching that point if we haven't already crossed the Rubicon.
I think anyone ( such as myself )who puts forwards the statement. "It isn't that simple", does so because it actually isn't that simple. We live in a changing and complex society because most advanced civilizations do advance towards complexity. Dealing with this complexity is an ongoing problem. I think you know my thoughts on going back to an idealized time in history in order to save the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
As far as I can see there is no actual point we can define. What is soft tyranny to one man is another man's opportunity. Soft tyranny is in the eye of the beholder.Quote:
Originally Posted by tombder55
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombder55
That is a difficult question to answer. Some people would argue that all rights are artificial. That is, the only reason we have rights is because there is an organized society that grants us those rights. They reject Locke's idea that there can be a state of nature whereby individuals naturally possess certain rights prior to their being an organized society to grant such rights.
On that basis they would also argue that the "Hobbesian behemoth" is exactly the same as every right we have in,'or out of society' They are all a creation of the state.
I DON'T support this view for a number of reasons, but the reason I mentioned it is because, of your question,"Are positive rights God given, or natural rights... or are they the concoction of those who would create a Hobbesian Behemoth?"
My answer is that it is not a legitimate question because to answer the latter part of your question in the affirmative would be to draw a false dichotomy.
Tut
Give up Tom your strawman is on fire
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:11 AM. |