 |
Hello:
If you view a campaign as a business, and it very much IS, then the community organizer outbusinessman-ed the businessman.. As a country, we're the beneficiaries of that.
The next order of business is to fix the economy. Obama WILL reach agreement with the intransigent GOP. Consequently, he will have FIXED our health care system in his first term, and he will have FIXED our economic system in the second... He's going to go down as one of the BEST.
excon
Yeah I can see Alinsky style... "pick the target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it" ,ward type politics is our future. The President proved that a non-stop barrage of negative ads ,funded by the super-PAC's $$ he claims to abhore ,is effective . He proved he could divide and conquer and use identity and class warfare politics successfully .
Conservatives have a lot to learn from his performance.
They INVENTED that performance. Our you living in a bubble? Conservatives have mastered the art of spreading FUD.Quote:
Conservatives have a lot to learn from his performance.
Well if that is true then Romney was not conservative enough. The only time I saw him take the gloves off was in the 1st debate.
Past Glories, Vain Empty Imaginings, If BO "succeeds" in moving the economy forward it will be because he has dragged the Republicans kicking and screaming to the table under the threat of expiring tax cuts
Let's just what the community organizer's results are. So far he hasn't helped the economy much.
In the odd chance he "succeeds " it will be because he followed the Clintoon triangulation and left his left wing inclinations in wraps for the nation's good .
Who cares whose plan he followed as long as he has a plan and it works
"Works" being the operative word. So far it doesn't work.
Hello again, Steve:
I realize FACTS aren't high on your priority list, but that's why I'M here. You guys just don't have it right.. And, if you DON'T have it right, you'll NEVER fix it. Because what you want to FIX, AIN'T broke.Quote:
"Works" being the operative word. So far it doesn't work.
In fact, it IS working. You SAW the chart I posted... I'll post it again, if you wish. The chart shows that when Obama took office, we were losing 100's of 1,000's of jobs a month. Remember?? We're NOT now. That shows his policy is WORKING.. In fact, now we're ADDING jobs every month and we've been adding them for 43 straight months... That TOO shows his policy is working..
Now, you can call it something else, and I'm sure you will.. But, in the REAL world, it's WORKING...
Excon
Hey you're right, what they are in denial about is it is their policies that created this situation and now they bleat that someoneelse doesn't have the ability to immediately reverse the effects. They created the greatest recession, depression even, since the great depression and they want instant. Well instant comes with pain and they aren't ready to feel pain. They are lucky BO isn't communist or he would confiscate their wealth and stand them against the wall
The cart would move faster if we got the dead weight out of it. How do you go forward when the right is pulling us backward?
I just gave you the solution, in a gun culture I don't know how it is you don't understand this.
Seriously though, it is called consensus, not pulling a Boehner, by saying revenue growth has to come from growth. What is so bad about the Bush tax cuts expiring, then there would be a base to negotiate from. You have one of the least taxed populations in developed countries. Don't look at the rates and say we are higher, look at the effective rate and for someone like Romney to pay 11, or 14%, ridiculous. He is just ripping off the rest of the population. Time to let go of mortgage interest deductions, put a limit on charitable deductions and any other ideas that negate the tax rate
You could confiscate all the rich money and still not solve the fact that we spend way too much Monopoly money on bloated and inefficent bureaucracies , wasteful programs ,and entitlements .
Yeah I heard it and reality is, some part of that might be true, you don't seem to have the ability to do anything simply. With fifty states you have massive duplication, but you have to ask yourself, if the founding fathers intended federal government to be small, how did it get so big?
Your military has just run away, it is way bigger than it needs to be, pure paranoia. You want to block entitlements, but which would you block? Only way out is to set caps. You could ditch some of the items, agriculture, energy, etc but they are a mere drop in the bucket. Your government should not be able to overspend its receipts to the massive extent it does $1.3 trillion of discretinary expenditure, perhaps you could kick Pakistan off the teat
Hello again, tom:
That's an old right wing argument. We don't think taxing the rich will SOLVE our debt crisis.. It'll just make the tax system FAIRER. That's all. It's really simple. Oh, and while it won't SOLVE our debt crisis, it won't ADD to it like it does now...
You DO know they're causing massive debt for us, don't you? You DO know that we have to borrow from the dreaded CHINA to pay for them, don't you?
excon
You mean forward like California? Or Texas, where all those California businesses are coming to. Did you know the unemployment rate in Amarillo is under 5%? We've been doing pretty good here in spite of things and we'd appreciate you not dragging us backward.Quote:
The cart would move faster if we got the dead weight out of it. How do you go forward when the right is pulling us backward?
So you are not really interested in solving the problem ;just dealing with your perceptions of what is fair ,even with the evidence that increasing tax rates reduces revenues .
I'm all in favor of tax reform . When the Dems can have a serious discussion about that ,then at least the revenue question would be solved .
Short of military cuts ;which by the way I've already said was needed ; what other spending reductions does your side have ? Nothing . In fact ;your side continues to promote even greater spending .
Hello again, tom:
I too, have listed things that should be cut.. I BELIEVE that we should live within our means. I also BELIEVE we can DO that WITHOUT sacrificing national security and WITHOUT throwing granny over the cliff.
For starters, in it's most SIMPLISTIC sense, your candidate pointed out the exact way to DO it, too. Now, I'm not going to cite exact numbers here, but when Romney was in Israel, he remarked that they were able to take care of their peoples health care needs, and spend about 10 percentage points of GDP LESS than we do.
Seems to me, that if we did just HALF of what the Israeli's (and the rest of the western world) does, the money left over would pay for ALL the things you wingers say we can't afford.
Now, I realize you folks have ideological reasons you don't want to do that, but it seems to me that you love your country too much to NOT do that...
excon
Increasing tax rates reduces revenues, I have never heard a more ridiculous argument. I suppose closing loopholes reduces revenue too. Next you will tell us reducing tax rate increase revenue. Look Tom improving the employment position takes a certain number of people out of the loop and reduces expenditure and a little economic growth improves revenue but you need a complete systemic change to improve your debt position. The major items are not those affected by these drivers. Look at your corporate taxes they are a very small part of revenue, that doesn't make sense in the largest economy in the world
All I know is raising taxes helps the black market and increases revenue elsewhere.
Cigarette smuggling on the rise as taxes skyrocket
Denmark is abolishing the fat tax it enacted last year because it "inflated food prices and put Danish jobs at risk." Seems Danes were crossing over into Germany for cheaper food.
At least they've learned a lesson, Chicago just plans on raising cigarette taxes again.
And yet it has been proven true 3 times in my lifetime.Quote:
Increasing tax rates reduces revenues, I have never heard a more ridiculous argument... Next you will tell us reducing tax rate increase revenue..
No kidding... systemic spending on government giv-aways has destroyed the West.Quote:
but you need a complete systemic change to improve your debt position.
And yet the corporate rates are near if not the highest in the Western world .Quote:
Look at your corporate taxes they are a very small part of revenue, that doesn't make sense in the largest economy in the world
Tom I have tried to be rational with you on this issue but you know as well as I do tax is all about polispeak.If tax rates were to apply as they were intended they would raise revenue but every little lobby group has found a way to get a concession with the result that the effective rate is very much lower. What does it matter what the rest of the world's tax rates are, this isn't a popularity contest. No one else has the concessions you doQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/curren..../03rates.html
As this article declares US companies are world leaders in tax avoidance
As a true comparison Tom, in 2010 the US had an effective average rate of 23% compared with a base 35% rate, while my own nation had a 22% effictive average rate compared with a base rate of 30%. Not that much between us actually excepting we don't have that inefficient state thing
Sorry Clete, you are NOT a true capitalist because you don't believe in the capitalist business model. MO" MONEY, and worship the god of trickle down.
You are unworthy!!
It's not a worship of anything Tal, it's called common sense - something frowned upon in this day. A trillion here and a trillion there, pretty soon you run out of other people's money. Is that how you run your finances or do you try and work within your means? Or do you just suck off the government teat and not worry about it?
I never suggested I am a capitalist although highly trained to administer the capitalist system. I don't worship the twin gods of money and averice. The capitalist system is based on individual accumulation, which it is supposed leads to wide spread employment, but capital has learned, you can invest your money in selected bonds and get a return at least equal to putting your money at risk, so why take on these other responsibilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I don't care if I am unworthy, I just care if I am right. I live in a place which has demonstrated quite ably that capital properly regulated can both flourish and maintain employment. We made one mistake, we fell for the foolishness of thinking there is such a thing as a level playing field
Clete ;if you are talking tax reform I'm all on board. The phoney Dems want to keep the deduction because the truth is that their own rich supporters benefit from them;and indeed ,over the course of the last century ;they were more responsible than the Repubics for distorting the code.
They advocate something even more insidious than Marxism if that's possible. At least Marxist play lip service to 'from each according to their abiiity' . These people are more into a Roman statist... bread and circus .
Yes Tom I agree that what you have is a circus, but you have forgotten the bread, even the Romans knew a starving population was a recipe for disaster. The Romans knew that to keep a peaceful population you fed them on blood sport and bread all financed by the state but you have not given them the sport and you refuse them the bread.
I agree with reform, a simplification. It has worked well here. I'm not against lower tax rates, but a fairer system which places the burden on those that earn the money and therefore benefit. You want to broaden the system, use a broad based consumption tax, then everyone pays something according to their means. Those who spend more pay more. The idea that tax is a disincentive to capital is pure balloney, capitalist rhetoric. It just has to be factored into the return on investment but no one should be able to take super profits out of the system. Income tax is a very ineffective and regressive measure, because a whole industry has risen up to help minimise liability but I would rather take 10% off the top at point of consumption than try to extract 35% after the event at point of income.
Imagine this; yours is a $14 Trillion economy your take is about $1 trillion in income tax but you could halve income tax and take 10% off the top and you would have twice the revenue. This is what we did and our economy powers on. Where did all the extra money come from, from the tax cheats and cash economy.
Hello clete:
They're NOT interested in reducing the deficit.. It's all subterfuge. All they want to do is GUT the safety net. If they really wanted to FIX it, they'd be right there with single payer health care.. It'll save at least FIVE percentage points off our GDP. The savings would be in the JILLIONS..
Now, I know they HATE it, but the money we'd save would pay for any size military they'd could fantasize about, plus it would take care of our seniors and our poor exactly like the leader of the world should do...
Even Romney saw the savings... But, they'll IGNORE me, and talk about how Medicare is bankrupting us... But, NOW you know the secret.
excon
It is no secret Ex that business isn't interested in anything but profit. Once you are on the scrap heap, they don't want to assist the government to pay for you.
Your various programs are very expensive relative to the revenue collected and both you and I understand why they would object to pay more, since rich business men don't get anything out of the system. They are unable to see the connect between their ability to earn and their responsibilities.
What is bankrupting you is lack of revenue, someone forgot that people age and that they live a long time, but these things are circular, something these fellows also forgot. Those people on the receiving end spend that money and fuel the very business that object to taxes
The jig is up for the obstruction thing so maybe we get some consensus, and a plan of action instead of this gridlock and phoney crisis crap.
Nah they are politicians they must look good to the faithfull
Yes ,if Harry Reid is on board a consensus can be reached. Now that he has successfully protected his majority ,maybe he can actually get around to some legislating .Quote:
The jig is up for the obstruction thing
Now that Obama bought the vote in Ohio... time to throw them under to bus too.
Ohioans
Don't be a cynic Tom it may be time to consider the restructuring of the auto industry
You think ? Of course a normal tried and true bankruptcy process would've expedited that process.Quote:
it may be time to consider the restructuring of the auto industry
Its already been restructured and best if the right keep its hands off it.
Tom I don't think anything of the kind, if I recall your auto industry was going down for the count. You would have lost GM. That is a vital industry, a government just can't afford to throw it away. Now I think your banks should have gone through the bankruptcy process too and they are not so vital there are plenty of them. Look whatever those costs were they are small compared with the absolute waste of money represented by the Iraq war. Your woes don't have anything to do with bailouts, they have everything to do with corporate greed, irresponsibility and pure bloodlymindedness of CEO's and boards. You would like it the other way with a greek style austerity, pensions cut, public service salaries cut, 25% unemployment, 50% youth unemployment, riots in the streets
Absolutely I opposed the TARP bailouts too ;but you are wrong ,GM would've survived a LAWFUL bankruptcy process.Quote:
Now I think your banks should have gone through the bankruptcy process too and they are not so vital there are plenty of them.
we will get there eventually under out current trajectory of government give-aways ,entitlements ;and yes public employee benefits.Quote:
You would like it the other way with a greek style austerity, pensions cut, public service salaries cut, 25% unemployment, 50% youth unemployment, riots in the streets
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:01 AM. |