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  • Jul 12, 2012, 06:45 AM
    excon
    Your Constitution At Work
    Hello:

    Man stands his ground and refuses to cooperate with immigration check points. What do you think of his action? Hero, or bum?

    How Many Checkpoints in One Morning?! Welcome to the Police State! - YouTube

    excon
  • Jul 12, 2012, 06:57 AM
    Wondergirl
    Definitely hero!!
  • Jul 12, 2012, 08:08 AM
    excon
    Hi Carol:

    He's a braver soul than I, but I LOVE him. He's an inspiration to all freedom loving Americans out there.. IF I get stopped, I HOPE I have the balls to resist like him..

    I AM surprised that they didn't pull him out of the window, mace him, taze him, and beat the sh!t out of him.. I'm not used to cops who get told NO, and then do NOTHING...

    Did you know that there a whole YouTube channel devoted to these guys?? I didn't..

    checkpointusa - YouTube

    excon
  • Jul 12, 2012, 08:14 AM
    speechlesstx
    Gutsy, but not a hero, and that whether I-8 never intersects the border is irrelevant. I've driven it and it hugs the border close enough to throw a rock into Mexico at one point.

    The Border Patrol has "wide discretion" to send him to a secondary check for further questioning. They didn't push it but they could have. I understand the frustration but why not just whip out your license and go on?
  • Jul 12, 2012, 08:22 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    but why not just whip out your license and go on?

    Hello again, Steve:

    I'm surprised at your post.. I guess I shouldn't be. But, I thought I remembered a while ago when you were decrying cops behavior about something similar...

    Why NOT whip out your license?? Because to DO so would ENCOURAGE the federal government to continue to VIOLATE the Constitution... Don't you complain about Obama and how he tears up the Constitution?? But, when the rubber meets the road, you right wingers are OK with the violations... You only TALK the TALK..

    excon
  • Jul 12, 2012, 08:34 AM
    speechlesstx
    What is the constitutional violation, ex? SCOTUS has ruled the way I described so what's your point? Should I be pissed enough at the Obamacare ruling and defy it?

    It's gutsy, but what's the point? Don't we have a right to protect our border? Geez, never mind, what was I thinking there?
  • Jul 12, 2012, 08:41 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Don't we have a right to protect our border? Geez, never mind, what was I thinking there?

    Hello again, Steve:

    I don't know what you were thinking.. These stops didn't happen at the border. They happened INSIDE these great United States of America, where we have (had) the RIGHT to be free from unreasonable searches. Driving on an American highway, minding your own business does NOT rise to probable cause or reasonable suspicion.

    Nonetheless, as much as I know about the Constitution, I am UNAWARE of a ruling that makes these stops Constitutional. Would you link me?

    excon
  • Jul 12, 2012, 08:53 AM
    speechlesstx
    I don't think questioning is the same as "unreasonable searches" is it? And illegals? They only travel across deserts on foot, there would never be any reason to suspect there might be illegal activities on roads close to the border?

    Quote:

    "Border Patrol agents at checkpoints have legal authority that agents do not have when patrolling areas away from the border. The United States Supreme Court ruled that Border Patrol agents may stop a vehicle at fixed checkpoints for brief questioning of its occupants even if there is no reason to believe that the particular vehicle contains illegal aliens.[4] The Court further held that Border Patrol agents "have wide discretion" to refer motorists selectively to a secondary inspection area for additional brief questioning.[5] In contrast, the Supreme Court held that Border Patrol agents on roving patrol may stop a vehicle only if they have reasonable suspicion that the vehicle contains aliens who may be illegally in the United States—a higher threshold for stopping and questioning motorists than at checkpoints.[6] The constitutional threshold for searching a vehicle is the same, however, and must be supported by either consent or probable cause, whether in the context of a roving patrol or a checkpoint search.[7]"
    I never said I liked checkpoints - of any kind - but if you don't like it change the constitution or SCOTUS' mind, they're a perfectly legal if inconvenient fact of life. I'm just not about civil disobedience for the sake of civil disobedience.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 09:03 AM
    excon
    Hello again, Steve:

    We're going to hell. You wingers talk about socialism, while fascism is growing under our feet.

    The WAY you change SCOTUS's mind, IS to civilly DISOBEY.. Laying down for them, like you suggest we do, only tells SCOTUS that you're FINE with the ruling, which you ARE...

    excon
  • Jul 12, 2012, 09:22 AM
    speechlesstx
    So in other words it doesn't really violate the constitution as you claimed.

    Look, there are 2 permanent checkpoints on I-8, one in California and one in Arizona. Does he not know this yet? I'm for protecting our borders, you lefties just don't care who comes in, who votes where and I'm sorry but this is much ado about nothing. He knows the checkpoint is there, videotaping yourself purposely being defiant is just provoking. That doesn't make him a hero.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 09:36 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    So in other words it doesn't really violate the constitution as you claimed.

    Hello again, Steve:

    Let's be CLEAR.. It was RULED Constitutional. Nonetheless, I can read. I KNOW what our rights are, where they came from, WHY we have them, and most importantly, what the government needs to do to overcome them.

    Searching people at random simply because of where they are, does NOT rise to the level required by the Constitution. It just doesn't.

    Now, you accuse me of saying this because I want anybody to cross the border anytime they want, and invade our country... That's offensive. I guess I shouldn't expect you to know me any better than you do.

    excon
  • Jul 12, 2012, 09:46 AM
    tomder55
    At points in eastern Imperial County, the border is less than 0.5 miles south of the Interstate.

    http://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.co...1&d=1281027580
  • Jul 12, 2012, 09:49 AM
    Wondergirl
    Was this at one of those two checkpoints? Is there a side road so to avoid them? The driver wasn't going into Mexico he said, but just minding his own business driving to work within the US.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 09:54 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Searching people at random simply because of where they are, does NOT rise to the level required by the Constitution. It just doesn't.

    For what, the third time now? No one is "searching." These checkpoints did not change the criteria for a search, but I already said that. Is it illegal to question or check for ID at a checkpoint?

    Quote:

    Now, you accuse me of saying this because I want anybody to cross the border anytime they want, and invade our country... That's offensive. I guess I shouldn't expect you to know me any better than you do.
    You most obviously don't think anyone should have to prove they have the right to vote and if I recall, you object to just about every other effort at enforcing our immigrations laws so what other conclusion can I draw?

    Like I said, like it or not he knows these checkpoints are there and I doubt seriously this band of rebels is going to change SCOTUS' mind without taking it to court. But we've been there, done that and it's pretty well settled law so good luck. There is no illegal search taking place that I'm aware of so that's a straw man.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 09:55 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Was this at one of those two checkpoints? Is there a side road so to avoid them? The driver wasn't going into Mexico he said, but just minding his own business driving to work within the US.

    Does it matter?
  • Jul 12, 2012, 09:58 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    At points in eastern Imperial County, the border is less than 0.5 miles south of the Interstate.

    Hello again, tom:

    The KEY is that it's INSIDE the United States, where I'm a sovereign citizen with the right to move about FREELY - or so I thought.. If they can fudge a half mile, why can't they fudge a mile, or 10? How about 100? That would include Seattle. I'm not far from the border. Why SHOULDN'T they be doing those checks here?

    I have NO problem with guarding the BORDER.. But, this highway AIN'T the border.

    excon
  • Jul 12, 2012, 09:58 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Does it matter?

    Yes. If I am going into or leaving Mexico, okay then. I agree to be checked at the US-Canadian border too. But driving and staying completely within the US? NO!!

    As a former NYer, I often visited Niagara Falls. You're saying US visitors to the American side can all be stopped and checked.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 10:17 AM
    Fr_Chuck
    DUI and safety check points are normal and used often in various areas. They ( are suppose to) randomly check a certain number of cars, every 5th or what ever. Check for drivers license and insurance and proper tags ( and car inspections in areas that have that)

    Many states have laws allowing these. Normally a person not pulling over when told would be ticketed or even arrested for not following the directions of a officer.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 10:19 AM
    Wondergirl
    This wasn't a random check. EVERY car was to be checked, and usually a checkpoint is looking for something. What were these police looking for?
  • Jul 12, 2012, 10:24 AM
    excon
    Hello again,

    What blows my mind, is that you righty's are FINE with these intrusions on your private life, and don't see ANY Constitutional incursions - NONE!

    Whereas, you scream and moan about Obama's SOCIALISTIC unconstitutional administration. But, I can't find ANYTHING he did that was even CLOSE to unconstitutional...

    excon
  • Jul 12, 2012, 10:27 AM
    Wondergirl
    Dear excon:

    It depends on WHO instituted them, if they are acceptable or not. Like my righty husband says (paraphrased), "It's good if a Republican thought of it and made it happen."

    WG
  • Jul 12, 2012, 10:47 AM
    excon
    Hello again, Carol:

    Being asked for your papers, which is WHAT these cops are asking, is NOXIOUS. It's reminiscent of the Gestapo, and the SS. Next, they'll be having us wear armbands to show whether we're citizens or not...

    What's even MORE noxious, is this fascist creep is being done in CONSORT with the America loving Republican party. And, they can't see a thing... I guess that's what happened in Germany..

    excon
  • Jul 12, 2012, 10:49 AM
    Wondergirl
    Dear excon:

    It's NOXIOUS because it's happening WITHIN our borders. With an scary agenda behind it.

    WG
  • Jul 12, 2012, 10:59 AM
    tomder55
    A random check would be unconstitutional . But check points that aren't randomly conducted in a systematic, predesignated manner are constitutional.

    If you are driving a vehicle, you have an obligation to produce license, registration and proof of insurance when demanded by a cop . If you don't like it you don't have to drive . If you don't want to go through TSA ,don't fly.
    It applies to all drivers who passes through the checkpoint.

    It is not just on the Southern border either . There are many times I drive though road blocks in NY where the cops will ,at a minimum ,look at the registration and insurance sticker on the windshield before you can move on.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:13 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    If you don't want to go through TSA ,don't fly.

    I don't, so I don't.
    Quote:

    It is not just on the Southern border either . There are many times I drive though road blocks in NY where the cops will ,at a minimum ,look at the registration and insurance sticker on the windshield before you can move on.
    Are the cops in your area willing to say what they are looking for? (The ones here do.) Are there alternate routes to avoid the checkpoints? (There are here.)

    Do the police in S.Cal. tell motorists what they are looking for? Are there alternate routes to avoid the checkpoints?
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:15 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again,

    What blows my mind, is that you righty's are FINE with these intrusions on your private life, and don't see ANY Constitutional incursions - NONE!

    Dude, no one likes checkpoints but you keep avoiding my point and moving the line back and forth. This was my answer to your last objection, what about it?

    Quote:

    "For what, the third time now? No one is "searching." These checkpoints did not change the criteria for a search, but I already said that. Is it illegal to question or check for ID at a checkpoint? "
    Well?

    Quote:

    Whereas, you scream and moan about Obama's SOCIALISTIC unconstitutional administration. But, I can't find ANYTHING he did that was even CLOSE to unconstitutional...
    His contraception mandate is the most blatant and obvious trampling of the constitution in my lifetime if you ask me. Why you can't see it I don't know.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:17 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Dear excon:

    It's NOXIOUS because it's happening WITHIN our borders. With an scary agenda behind it.

    WG

    And you apparently think protecting our borders stops at a line on a map. Bwa ha ha ha!!
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:17 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Dude, no one likes checkpoints but you keep avoiding my point and moving the line back and forth. This was my answer to your last objection, what about it?

    What are the police looking for? Do they admit that during the checks?
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:18 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    And you apparently think protecting our borders stops at a line on a map. Bwa ha ha ha!!!

    Protecting our borders from a short, cute red-haired German-looking woman who can say only "hola" and "poco" and "adios"? Or from something else?
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:20 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    Are the cops in your area willing to say what they are looking for? (The ones here do.) Are there alternate routes to avoid the checkpoints? (There are here.)

    Do the police in S.Cal. tell motorists what they are looking for? Are there alternate routes to avoid the checkpoints?
    In my town and in many towns including the NATIONS CAPITAL.. road blocks are common in predesignated areas. The rest of the question is irrelevant . It is known that the ones I drive through that the cops are checking registration and insurance stickers because that is ALL they look at . These roadblocks on I -8 are looking to see if the driver has licenses. Why are they doing that ? Because illegals drive cars without licenses. BOO HOO to anyone inconvenienced .
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:22 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Because illegals drive cars without licenses.

    So I would not have to be checked since I look nothing like an illegal (whatever that looks like).

    What does an illegal look like?
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:22 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I don't, so I don't.

    Are the cops in your area willing to say what they are looking for? (The ones here do.) Are there alternate routes to avoid the checkpoints? (There are here.)

    Do the police in S.Cal. tell motorists what they are looking for? Are there alternate routes to avoid the checkpoints?

    Why does it matter if there are alternate routes? This sounds exactly like the voter ID arguments I alluded to earlier. Heaven forbid an American be inconvenienced in the least.

    Just let everybody in, legalize everything, do away with standards, let anyone vote and make the federal government everyone's nanny. Does that about cover it?
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:24 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Just let everybody in, legalize everything, do away with standards, let anyone vote and make the federal government everyone's nanny. Does that about cover it?

    Now you're being silly, universalizing the checkpoint thing, and throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:24 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Heaven forbid an American be inconvenienced in the least.

    You mean like religious institutions made to offer contraception? That kind of "inconvenience"?
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:29 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    You mean like religious institutions made to offer contraception? That kind of "inconvenience"?

    Yeah see, you think the feds forcing the church to violate their beliefs and first amendment rights is a trivial thing, but pulling out your drivers license is the end of the freakin' world.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:30 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Now you're being silly, universalizing the checkpoint thing, and throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

    Silly? No, I'm not that far off.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:37 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    As a former NYer, I often visited Niagara Falls. You're saying US visitors to the American side can all be stopped and checked.

    BTW ,the zone for interior check point ranges within a 100 mile radius of a border. I can't find any instance of a check point at Niagara ; I know they do occasionally in the Buffalo area ; but on the Olympic Peninsula by EX . They have set them up at times.
    Here in NY we commonly go through tunnel and bridge check points going into Manhattan ;even with the congestion on the roadways.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:42 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Yeah see, you think the feds forcing the church to violate their beliefs and first amendment rights is a trivial thing, but pulling out your drivers license is the end of the freakin' world.

    Actually no, I think it's pretty even/equal. But you agree with one and not the other.
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:42 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    There is no illegal search taking place that I'm aware of so that's a straw man.

    Hello again, Steve:

    You seem to think a search involves touching.. I maintain that searching for your citizenship is as much a search as looking in your trunk would be.

    excon
  • Jul 12, 2012, 11:49 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Actually no, I think it's pretty even/equal. But you agree with one and not the other.

    How so? The first amendment is pretty clear. Where are we protected from from being asked to show ID at a checkpoint you have to be licensed to drive on.

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