After virtually ignoring the Fast and Furious scandal the media is showing up. It took Holder asking for and getting executive privilege on the documents his DOJ has refused to provide the Oversight Committee.
What do they have to hide??
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After virtually ignoring the Fast and Furious scandal the media is showing up. It took Holder asking for and getting executive privilege on the documents his DOJ has refused to provide the Oversight Committee.
What do they have to hide??
So what's your point.
You didn't understand the question?
They should still move to a motion of contempt of Congress. Holder ,as a cabinet officer confirmed by the Senate ,is not subject to executive privilege . In fact ;the only way I see it being invoked is if the President is personally involved . Executive privilege protects communications with the President ,not the AG unless the President was also involved . If Fast and Furious is a national security issue ;then Holder is still subject to contempt charges and perjury charges .
Exactly, and it should raise even more eyebrows since Holder and his DoJ have repeatedly claimed the White House knew nothing about F&F. Sounds like as much an admission that the White House did know something after all.
Plausible denyability but is there anything the White House doesn't know about after all it micromanages hits on terrorists
"Let me say it as simply as I can: transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency." -Barack Obama
Which law was that? Sounds like he is in touch with the blarney stone to me
I made an incorrect statement when I wrote :In fact ;the only way I see it being invoked is if the President is personally involved . Executive privilege protects communications with the President ,not the AG unless the President was also involved . The President doesn't have to be directly involved .He can invoke Executive Privilege for people under his command without him having personal involvement .
But since the documents pertain directly to Holder's perjury in testimony before Congress ,then invoking the privilege is tantamount to a cover up. Ask Nixon how far that got him .
The House Oversight Committee today voted to move contempt vote to the House floor .
Via Powerline:
Also from Espy:Quote:
In Espy, the court said:
The deliberative process privilege does not shield documents that simply state or explain a decision the government has already made or protect material that is purely factual….
The deliberative process privilege is a qualified privilege and can be overcome by a sufficient showing of need. … For example, where there is reason to believe the documents sought may shed light on government misconduct, ‘the privilege is routinely denied,’ on the grounds that shielding internal government deliberations in this context does not serve ‘the public’s interest in honest, effective government.’”
I don't think he has a legal leg to stand on, let's see if Obama can make the political argument or if this is just more stalling.Quote:
“Not every person who plays a role in the development of presidential advice, no matter how remote and removed from the President, can qualify for the privilege. In particular, the privilege should not extend to staff outside the White House in executive branch agencies. Instead, the privilege should apply only to communications authored or solicited and received by those members of an immediate White House advisor’s staff who have broad and significant responsibility for investigation and formulating the advice to be given the President on the particular matter to which the communications relate. Only communications at that level are close enough to the President to be revelatory of his deliberations or to pose a risk to the candor of his advisers.”
This should be good, the next round of the right wing loony bin against the President. So what's new? You guys have been slinging mud, and bad mouthing the guy for 3 and a half years, and this is just another bone to keep the rest of the loonies outraged, and engaged and maybe they will vote for you guys.
Yet again another issue on which both sides should agree but you call it mudslinging and us loony. Good to see you care about the rule of law, getting to the bottom of Brian Terry's death and why we let thousands of guns walk to our neighbor to the south to be used to kill who knows how many more.
Just watch Jon Stewart's take on F&F.
Not allowed to watch that speech what did he say
You'd have to watch it, Clete. He skewers Obama and Democrats pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I can't watch it the site won't open to meQuote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
It's geoblocked to anyone outside the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Yes they live in their own little world
Hello:
As usual, the right wing is outraged about the WRONG things...
During Fast & Furious, the ATF LOST over 2,000 weapons in Mexico. 57,000 Mexicans have been KILLED due to the drug war. I wonder how many Mexicans died at the hands of ATF.. I wonder WHY nobody cares.
Yes, I too mourn the loss of ONE American. But, Holder didn't do it. Obama didn't do it. The ATF did it. Why aren't any of THOSE guys in jail? Why aren't you interested in investigating them?
So, you'll excuse me if I happen to be outraged about it too. I just don't share YOUR outrage.
excon
Ex no one cares because they don't want to offend the right wing gun lobby. It's all right to kill mexicans with american guns, after all that less mex's that can cross the border so you could look on it as border defenseQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
Ex no one mourns the loss of life in a war, these people are expendiable, that is why it is called a war so there could be casualities of war and investigations are not necessary.Quote:
Yes, I too mourn the loss of ONE American. But, Holder didn't do it. Obama didn't do it. The ATF did it. Why aren't any of THOSE guys in jail? Why aren't you interested in investigating them?
I think the actions of the ATF here are deplorable and reprehensible and someone should be held to account and that person is the person who authorised the operation and since executive privilege is involved we know where the buck stops
Less outrage more actionQuote:
So, you'll excuse me if I happen to be outraged about it too. I just don't share YOUR outrage.
Excon
Yes we should be equally outraged that hundreds of Mexicans have been killed by the botched attempt by the Adm to make a connection between Mexican drug violence and the rights of Americans to own guns .
BTW ;there are 2 American deaths due to this flawed policy. Besides Border agent Brian Terry ;ICE agent Jaime Zapata was also gunned down with a F&F weapon.
Why is it a big deal beyond a major policy snafu ? Because for a year and a half, Holder and his underlings have lied, stonewalled, misdirected, finger pointed, flip-flopped and taken the Fifth in a desperate attempt to wriggle free of the House Oversight Committee' s investigation.
Hello tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Hmmmph... Finally, the FOX News conspiracy hits our boards... Bwa ha ha ha ha...
But, there's even BETTER evidence that Obama wants to take away your guns... The fact that he hasn't TRIED to during his first administration means that he's clearly going to go after them during his second...
In fact, that's WHY he didn't try during his first term... He was WAITING and LULLING you wingers to sleep, so he could SURPRISE us... Yeah, that makes sense...
excon
It's the motive that makes most sense.
Obama has forfeited plausible deniability and tied F&F directly to the White House with his use of executive privilege . Why would he do that if this was just an ATF screw up ? Why wouldn't he make the documents available unless he was trying to hide his or Holder's involvement ? Yeah ;the gun control angle is pure speculation .However ,I've heard of nothing more plausible . You will note that I gave then the benefit of the doubt until now . It is the President who has turned this into something greater than what it should've been, Now the question is :why ? (that FOX stuff still bores me)
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
As you know, the reason for executive privilege is so that administration officials can speak candidly between themselves without fear that those conversations will be made public. Government wouldn't work so good if people don't talk to each other... Take the congress, for example..
excon
Again ;he loses plausible deniability . Also ,Holder ,a cabinet officer is not subject to that unless the issue is national security since he is confirmed by the Senate. That is why you saw Bush use it for Bolton but not for AG Gonzales.
Hello again, tom:
I thought so too. But, this morning on This Week, they had a quote from Mulcasey stating his belief that executive privilege DOES cover communication between cabinet officers..
I've been looking for it.. I can't find it. You'll have to take my word for it.
excon
I'll check on that some more ;but I think 'm right on that based on US v Nixon.(more below).. ultimately it is probable that if Congress presses this case ,then the courts will arbitrate.But lets say it is as you suggest and confidential commmunications between the President and his cabinet are subject to executive privilege ,then it is an admission that F&F was not a renegade operation deep in the ATF. He is admitting that White House staff were involved.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/RL30319.pdfQuote:
But although it considered a president's communications with his close advisors to be
“presumptively privileged,” the Court (in US v Nixon) rejected the President's contention that the privilege was absolute, precluding judicial review whenever it is asserted. Also,
while acknowledging the need for confidentiality of high level communications in
the exercise of Article II powers, the Court stated that when the privilege depends
solely on the broad, undifferentiated claim of public interest in the confidentiality of
such communications,” a confrontation with other values arises.” It held that
“absent a need to protect military, diplomatic, or sensitive national security secrets,
we find it difficult to accept the argument that even the very important interest in
confidentiality of presidential communications is significantly diminished by
production of” materials that are essential to the enforcement of criminal statutes.
neither the doctrine of separation of powers nor the need for confidentiality of high-level communications, without more, can sustain an absolute, unqualified Presidential privilege of immunity from judicial process under all circumstances.
Executive privilege cannot be used to cover up criminal wrongdoing, such as lying to Congress.
(United States v. Nixon)
That's about enough snark on that bullsh*t.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Issa is backing Obama into a corner. Let's see if he comes out swinging.
Holder has insisted and insisted the White House knew nothing about F&F and the executive privilege claim only came Holder's pathetic attempt at a deal.Quote:
Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) on Tuesday accused President Obama of either obstructing a congressional investigation or of involvement in the Fast and Furious gun-tracking operation.
In a seven-page letter to the president, the chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee leveled his most direct allegations yet at Obama just two days ahead of a full House vote on whether to place Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress for failing to respond to a subpoena...
"Either you or your most senior advisers were involved in managing Operation Fast and Furious and the fallout from it, including the false Feb. 4, 2011 letter provided by the attorney general to the committee,” Issa wrote to Obama. “Or, you are asserting a presidential power that you know to be unjustified solely for the purpose of further obstructing a congressional investigation.”
Bwa ha ha! Cancel the contempt vote, tell everyone how compliant I was and then you trust me to give you the documents you want sight unseen. No wonder he had to run to POTUS for a last gasp rescue. What a chump, and you guys would have been all over Gonzales' a$$ for the slightest appearance of a coverup. How much more do you need with this guy?Quote:
“He indicated a willingness to produce the ‘fair compilation’ of post-February 4th documents,” Issa wrote to the president. “He told me that he would provide the ‘fair compilation’ of documents on three conditions: (1) that I permanently cancel the contempt vote; (2) that I agree the department was in full compliance with the committee’s subpoenas, and; (3) that I accept the ‘fair compilation,’ sight unseen.”
Waiting for you to dangle your next shiny object.
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Fishing expedition.. Issa has visions of grandeur. He wants to be the guy who brings down the president, but there's nothing there. He'll fail, and Obama will be reelected.
excon
Ah, getting to the bottom of the murder of Brian Terry from an AG that has consistently stonewalled, retracted testimony, dodged, shifted blame and then begged for cover is a "fishing expedition." Good thing nobody got killed or anything...Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
To bad Issa is so intent on making Holder and Obama look bad, that he isn't investigating the real cause and effect that lead to a dead agent, by interviewing the ones that were involved in the case.
Rep. Darrell Issa Admits There Is No Evidence Connecting White House To Fast & Furious Scandal | Mediaite
NO supeonas for the supervisors, or agents involved.
New information names kingpin the FBI protected in Brian Terry murder - National Conservative | Examiner.com
Amazing how none of these folks were called in to supply testimony, so the facts are not what Issa is after. Some investigation.
And this is earth-shattering news? You don't see the slightest hint of a possible coverup in over a year of withholding documents, retracting testimony then claiming executive privilege after a lame request for absolution? I guess your standards for scandal have risen exponentially since Bush was in office.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Apparently you have a convenient memory.Quote:
NO supeonas for the supervisors, or agents involved.
'Fast and Furious' Whistleblowers Struggle Six Months After Testifying Against ATF Program
They testified before Congress - even though the DoJ tried to stonewall their testimony. Yes I cited Fox.
Again, good thing nobody got killed or anything...
My memory is correct and functioning fine, and your position would be more tenable if Issa had something more than a political agenda to pursue.
Lost in all this is still the guns themselves getting into the hands of drug dealers in the first place, and sure this was botched in the execution stages, yet their was no subpoenas for those that took part in this, nor was the FBI called in for their role in this fiasco. So its not a truthful investigation for facts, but a targeted specific smear campaign designed to look tough, and undermine the justice departments efforts in many other areas they can't look into but oppose, such as the voter suppression efforts in a few states or the lawsuits filed against immigration law abuses.
Now you can spin this and use the death of an agent all you want to justify their actions, but the motives of Issa and the republicans is very clear, and no amount of targeted outrage will cover the fact that this is fueled by wild conspiracy theory, and the NRA, and maybe its Issa who should be investigated.
Over reach, and abuse of power come to mind, because no matter where this leads, the conditions for more deaths is still present, even if the dunces who botched this operation are gone.
Where does the buck stop? It stops with AG Holder, he is the man responsible.
You can leave the NRA, fishing expeditions, and all manner of conspiracy that your side is manufacturing like voter suppression, smear campaigns and bringing Obama down out of it. The only conspiracies in play here are operation Fast and Furious and whether the White House is covering their a$$es on it.
We all deserve to know the truth on this. Enough diversions.
Issa won't find the truth, he isn't looking, or interested. He is doing as he is told by the NRA. I can wait for the Inspector Generals report.
Bwa ha ha ha!! Got anything more than lame conspiracy theories?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Hello again, Steve:
Yup, the media FINALLY noticed. A Fortune Magazine investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust.
Bwa, ha ha ha.
excon
Well there is material to support the theory:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Why NRA wants Congress to vote Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt - CSMonitor.com
Issa Peddled Conspiracy Theory at NRA Convention, Called Fast and Furious an Attack on the 2nd Amendment (VIDEO) | rightwingwatch.org
NRA-ILA | Issa's right: Tougher gun laws Fast and Furious goal
http://nraila.org/media/7733622/cc-letter-to-issa.pdf
I think what you have here is the tail wagging the dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
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